Warm your heart

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
michael mills
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#46

Post by michael mills » 29 May 2002, 14:23

Was it so clear that the witnesses suffered from memory failures before evidence to “Ivan the Terrible” having been someone else surfaced?

Memory failures? One or two survivors of Treblinka might have suffered a memory failure, but so many of them? And all suffering the SAME memory failure?

It is obvious that one of them, having been shown a photo of Demjanjuk, who had been accused by the Soviet Union of having been a guard at SOBIBOR, made the decision to finger him as the fictional "Ivan the Terrible", and the others simply followed along.

The reason why so many Treblinka survivors fingered Demjanjuk as "Ivan the Terrible" is that THEY DID NOT KNOW WHAT "IVAN THE TERRIBLE" LOOKED LIKE. And the reason why they did not know what "Ivan the Terrible" looked like is because such a person NEVER EXISTED.

The character called "Ivan the Terrible" described by a number of Treblinka survivors is fictional, a conflation of the characteristics of a number of real Ukrainian guards and perhaps of some Germans.

Yankiel Wiernik in his 1944 pamphlet "A Year in Treblinka" describes twoUkrainian guards who operated the motor that delivered the gas to the gas-chamber, one called Ivan and one called Nikolai. According to Wiernik, Ivan hit the Jews entering the chamber with a pipe, while Nikolai carved them up with a sword.

In the accounts of the survivors, these two characters are conflated to form the basis for "Ivan the Terrible", who is presented as the person who operates the gas-chambers, and uses a sword on the prisoners. Some of the survivor accounts also claim that "Ivan" had a dog that, like many dogs, liked to retrieve balls, with the difference that these particular balls were originally attached to Jews. That detail is of course borrowed from the wild tales about Kurt Franz's dog Barry, which in fact was a mild-mannered and cuddly St Bernard.

Interestingly, there really was a person nicknamed "Ivan the Terrible", but he was a prisoner at SOBIBOR, and the mocking nickname had been given by the camp-staff. The circumstantial evidence suggests that the band of Treblinka survivors heard about that nickname from Sobibor survivors at one or more of their many gatherings, and decided to use it to denote the character they were developing in their memoirs as a representative of the various tormentors they had encountered at Treblinka.

What made the trial of Demjanjuk a travesty was that the legal authorities of the Jewish State, faced with the choice between continuing with the investigation of the accusation that he had been a guard at Sobibor, which at least had prima facie documentary evidence supplied by the Soviet Union, and between pursuing the startling new allegation that had come out of the woodwork, that he was the fictional monster "Ivan the Terrible" come to life, chose the latter course because of its sensational value.

The material found in the Soviet Union by Yoram Sheftel did not prove the existence of an "Ivan the Terrible" either. What Sheftel found was a Soviet accusation against a certain Ivan Marchenko that that person had been a guard at Treblinka and operated the gas-chamber motor there. If the operator had been marchenko, then it could not have been Demjanjuk, and the main accusation against him fell to the ground. Of course, the Soviet documentation did not claim that Marchenko did all the things that were attributed to "Ivan the Terrible", such as forcing prisoners to perform sexual acts with dead bodies, obviously the product of the sexual fantasy of some of the survivors.

The irony is that Marchenko may well have been innocent. After the demolition of Treblinka, he had been sent with the other Ukrainian guards and the German staff to Yugoslavia to fight partisans. There he had deserted and joined the partisans himself. Since Stalin and Tito fell out in 1948, and the Soviet Union was making all sorts of accusations against the Yugoslavs, it would have been a godsend to the Soviet propagandists to discover that one of Tito's partisans had formerly been a guard at Treblinka, and they may have manufactured the accusations against him.


“Jewish State”, “hasty retreat”, “band of bootlickers” – I’m beginning to enjoy this. Mr. Mills shouldn’t let himself be carried away too much by his emotions, for he might reveal an aversion to Jews that goes far beyond the criticism warranted under the circumstances. I guess I'll open up a file with quotes from Michael Mills, where the above statement will be the first entry.
Please feel free to do so. I stand behind everything I write. In the meantime, enjoy your interface with the heavy-duty footwear.

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Roberto
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#47

Post by Roberto » 29 May 2002, 14:39

Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
Michael Mills wrote:
The reason for the release of Demjanjuk was a desire to save face, not a desire to do justice.

I made this point about a year ago and it elicited the comment (which Roberto loves to cite) that I was some kind of a smart idiot with ideological blinders on (or something like that) from Mr. Stephen Sharpley, attorney from Australia. But perhaps I’m not so off-the-wall after all.

Maybe the reason for this comment was Smith’s inability to produce any backup for his “point”, thus conveying the impression that he was just shooting off his mouth?

No, it was an ad hominem attack from people who disagree with my opinions and are afraid that they might learn something disturbing.
What did this “ad hominem attack” read like?
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
The Holocaust is the “Founding Myth” of modern Israel. As I think any reasonable person will admit, Israel trying “Nazi War criminals” is like the fox guarding the henhouse.

Sure. That’s why Demjanjuk was eventually acquitted by the Israeli Court of Appeal, wasn’t it?

No, it was long-obvious that he was not Ivan the Terrible,
Obvious to whom, and on the basis of what evidence?
Finally, he was cut-loose to save face in the Eichmann II-trial that fizzled. I don't suspect any real evidence of crimes will be found regarding Sobibor either, or else the Israelis would have kept him for sure, to "save face."
Says Mr. Smith, who has nothing but his emotional aversion to the state of Israel to show by way of backup to his arguments. Evidence suggests that the reason for the acquittal was the impossibility of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that D. had been “Ivan the Terrible”.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
Michael Mills wrote:
The whole reason why the Jewish Lobby pushed for the methodology of deporting these persons is that it wanted to AVOID fair trials in a Western country where the possibility of acquittal existed.

I agree.

Birds of a feather fly together.

So far I'm impressed with his scholarship.
You’re rather easy to impress, my friend. Not surprising for someone who is impressed by the “scholarship” of a Friedrich Berg or Germar Rudolf.
If you disagree with some of his views, remember that disagreement is necessary to think outside of the box,
Which is something you badly need to learn, old pal.
which is why he really scares you.
Sounds a bit infantile, doesn’t it? Nothing scares me, old boy. I enjoy taking apart certain kinds of “scholarship”, as you well know.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
Walter Kaschner wrote:
In the second place, if the "Jewish Lobby" is as all powerful as you think, why would it not prefer to hold the trials in the US, where it could control the outcome and reap the benefits of the resulting publicity?

No, that would be a PR disaster for the Holo-Lobby! The last thing they want to do is put "the Holocaust on trial," especially in the media.

Why so? Last time the Holocaust was “on trial” (Irving-Lipstadt) the “Holo-Lobby” scored a resounding victory.

Yeah, Irving lost. But it was a big loss of the WAR for Lipstadt and the notion that you cannot debate the Holocaust.
Trying to smile from behind broken teeth, buddy?
We are doing it right here! Even the Zündel trials did not accomplish so much.
Exactly. And the results aren’t exactly encouraging for the “Revisionist” True Believers. Their nonsense is becoming patent to an ever greater number of readers, I dare say.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
And even with a kangaroo court that took judicial notice of "witchcraft,"

Where do you find such a court in this world? Not in the US or Germany, for sure. And not in Israel either, as it seems.

Nonsense.
Is what I never produce, whereas Smith keeps throwing around big mouthfuls of it.
The Holocaust is given judicial notice as a monolithic FACT, so if you are charged with "Denial," rather like witchcraft you cannot defend yourself with facts on the truth of your assertions. You are guilty of speaking Thoughtcrime, or "publishing false news" (which need not be proved false) as in the case of Zündel. Even if I don't agree with Zündel, I very much support his right to free-speech, denied him in Canada and Germany and many other places except for the USA.
Why, I thought we were talking about trials against Nazi criminals (where it is incumbent on the prosecution to prove the defendants’ individual actions and guilt beyond a reasonable doubt) and not about hate speech or false news trials under certain legislations (for the purpose of which the Holocaust is indeed considered a proven fact).

Mr. Smith is conveniently changing the subject, that is.

But as we're at it, why should it be necessary to prove that denying something proven beyond reasonable doubt is false?

And have any of Smith’s heroes provided evidence that would make the proven facts of the Nazi genocide of the Jews seem questionable?

All I’ve seen so far is hollow bunk such as the “Leuchter Report”.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
the publicity would only encourage debate, which would cost them political capital.

Debate is only disadvantageous for those who claim to be looking for it and retreat with their tails between their legs or hide behind walls of nonsense and forum censorship when someone takes them by their word. The opponents of these people only benefit from debate in that it makes a greater number of people interested in the findings of serious scholarship. The information available on Nizkor and THHP wouldn’t be online, for instance, if it wasn’t for the “Revisionist” howlers – who instructively refrain from cross-linking their own sites to these. Who would have heard of Pressac, van Pelt, Zimmerman and Green if it wasn’t for those whose propaganda nonsense they undertook to take apart?

Well, my impression of anti-Deniers is that they mostly can't discuss things rationally and must use insult and invective to clutter the thought-processes with SPAM.
What are insults and “spam” to you, Mr. Smith? Arguments and facts that you can say nothing against, perhaps?

If the tone sometimes gets rough on the part of “anti-Deniers”, I would blame that on all too human impatience with reading or hearing the same blatant nonsense repeated over and over again.
The poor student is overwhelmed and doesn't look at their stuff critically.
An accurate self-portrait of Mr. Smith.
But big deal. I don't care if weak-minded people are incapable of critical-thinking or not as long as there is free-speech.
Neither do I. In fact I favor free speech, which helps to expose the inability or unwillingness of folks like Smith to think critically when it comes to their Articles of Faith.
Quote:
Who would have heard of Deborah Lipstadt if it wasn’t for David Irving?

Who cares? Except that her anti-intellectual stance is incompatible with the art and science of historiography.
No, my friend. Except that her stance is freedom of speech, which happens to be backed by the art and science of historiography.
And for an academic to have such medieval views is more appropriate to theology.
What’s medieval about calling nonsense by the name it deserves, Mr. Smith?
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
Some of the more pious Believers don’t even like the "academicization" of the Holocaust among the annointed faithful. For the Holo-Cult, the Shoah is beyond human understanding, something merely that all must prostrate themselves before.

Is that so? Who are these people, and from what statements of theirs do such attitudes become apparent?

There was an article in Commentary, a Jewish intellectual periodical that I read regularly, lamenting the "academicization" of the Holocaust, which was the unintended consequence of the promotion of Holocaust Studies in the universities. He evidently viewed the Shoah much like the Passover, or the way Christians view Easter. I've forgotten the author now but I can find it. Of course you have to ask nicely!
I don’t have to ask Smith “nicely” to do what is incumbent upon him to do. It’s his credibility that is at issue, after all, not any favor granted to humble me. So let’s see that quote, plus an explanation as to how representative of Jewish thinking on the matter, scholarly or otherwise, this “Jewish intellectual periodical” is supposed to be.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
Walter Kaschner wrote:
I simply see no monolithic Jewish Lobby insidiously at work in the US.

That's because no such a thing exists.

A surprising demonstration of intellectual flexibility on the part of a True Believer. Congratulations.

I've always said that there is no monolithic Jewish (or any other) conspiracy. For this I am usually regarded a hypocrite according to Roberto--except now. Perhaps that is progress.
We’re talking about a “lobby” here, Mr. Smith. Not about your professed disbelief in a “conspiracy”, which is unconvincing because the massive manipulation of evidence that would be necessary for your contentions to hold true requires an impossibly well-organized, persistent, all-encompassing and discrete conspiracy.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
But it is very politically-correct to chase "Nazis." They are safe targets. Distractions. Monsters that when rooted out and slain warm the hearts of all and make us forget about REAL problems and real leadership.

If that’s how you see it, Mr. Smith, then how about cutting out your persistent pro-Nazi stance on this forum so that we may focus a little more on the “REAL problems and real leadership” of our days?

I've always been an advocate of trying to relate history to our own lives. But the "pro-Nazi stance" on this forum is in your own mind.
I’d say it’s in statements such as
I'm simply not going to be convinced just because Jews suffered and can't forget to stop telling us about it--those who basically have their own cruel Lebensraum imperative going on in the Holy Land, enabled by the Diaspora and perpetually needing to be justified somehow.
I never said that all of these Nazis were honorable men.
Thu Apr 18, 2002 11:16 pm Post subject: SONDERKOMMANDO Reunion
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 87e3e0fb54

or
Nuremberg's blanket criminality of the SS, the Nazi Party, the German people, and the Gentiles in general, was wrong.
Fri Apr 19, 2002 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: NAZIS
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 87e3e0fb54
Observe how much Ovidius (a self-described Romanian National Socialist) finds me frustrating at times--especially when I once said that even though I did not always agree with Tovarich (a self-described American Communist), I greatly respected him.
The honest National Socialist despises hypocrites. So do I. I respect Ovidius, but not Smith.
And I consider Jews no better or worse than anyone else.
Then why this rambling about their
…monumental accusation made against Gentiles in general and Germany in particular, that harms the German people--except of course their leaders, and perhaps also the plastic-spoon generation of neo-Germans--and it harms all of the Palestinian people.
Thu May 09, 2002 6:58 am Post subject: POINTLESS.
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 338adb8cad

and other crap quoted above?
I don't respect totalitarian-liberals like Lipstadt and Holtzman, or professional Victims like Wiesel and Wiesenthal. And I despise mental prostitutes like George Will. I still support their right to free-speech, however.

I have stated over and over again that even if I were a Nazi (oops, National Socialist, sorry, Ovidius ) that Hitler is dead and there is no such thing today as National Socialism--at least not without a viable Party and Führer, and 21st century issues of no less import than the Versailles Treaty. You see, progress requires learning from the past and learning from mistakes, and the Third Reich was certainly not without these.
Gotcha, baby. A regime that committed mass murder on a rarely equaled scale was “not without” mistakes, in Smith’s opinion. Very instructive. Enough said.
I do think that we need to start learning how to think outside of the classical-liberal, "Bourgeois," Democracy-Capitalist box, however.
Which means looking at National Socialism as an alternative, doesn’t it? :aliengray
I have stated that I am an Isolationist (for want of a better word) and I am very Progressive. On some things I am downright liberal. On others I am quite conservative. I am an atheist or agnostic who thinks that on balance religion is harmful to mankind. I support free-thought and to worship or not.

I post under my own name from Scottsdale, Arizona.

I have always been upfront and open with my views.
Ever heard of the bullshit bingo, buddy? I could easily fill out one with your hollow, hypocritical phrases.
I'm sure that is disappointing for some.
I’d say that some – quite a few, as a matter of fact - have grown tired of listening to Smith’s beaten sermons.


michael mills
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#48

Post by michael mills » 29 May 2002, 15:03

BTW, the exculpatory evidence showing that someone other than Demjanjuk was the notorious "Ivan the Terrible" at Treblinka which was admitted into evidence on appeal and clinched the Supreme Court's reversal was discovered by the prosecution and NOT the defense as you seem to believe. It was submitted into evidence by the defense after it had been furnished them by the prosecution (which the prosecution was ethically obliged to do).The prosecution lawyers had gotten hold of it after some years of attempting through diplomatic and other channels to obtain further information from the Soviet files, which attempts finally became successful after the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s. The defense was offered an opportunity to come to Moscow to inspect the same files, but never showed up. In fairness, however, it is clear at least to me that in this process the Israeli prosecution was not looking for exculpatory evidence, but rather for convincing evidence that Demjanjuk had been an SS Wachman at Sobibor and Flossenberg, which they hoped would convince the Supreme Court that the lower court's conviction should stand, regardless of the error about his service at Treblinka.
The above seems to contain some puzzling self-contradictions. Mr Kashner says that the Israeli prosecutors went to the Soviet Union to look for evidence that Demjanjuk had been a guard at Sobibor and Flossenbuerg (ie the ORIGINAL accusation), as a REPLACEMENT for the mistaken accusation that he had been a guard at Treblinka.

However, Demjanjuk had been found guilty of being a guard at Treblinka. That being so, why did the Prosecution need to find evidence for a new accusation against him, to replace the accusation re treblinka that had already been "proved"?

The only reason why the Prosecution would have needed to prepare a new accusation against Demjanjuk concerning Sobibor and Flossenbuerg would be that the accusation re Treblinka had been disproved, and a replacement accusation was required.

However, according to Mr Kashner, the evidence disproving the Treblinka accusation was found by the Prosecution team looking for evidence to back up the Sobibor accusation. But that is self-contradictory, since the fact that the Prosecution team was looking for Sobibor evidence shows that the Treblinka accusation had been disproved, or at least challenged.

The only logical conclusion is that the evidence challenging the Treblinka accusation and conviction had ALREADY been found, since otherwise the Prosecution would not have been looking for Sobibor evidence. And it follows that it was not the Prosecution that found the exculpatory evidence.

Perhaps I have misunderstood Mr Kashner, or perhaps he did not express the course of events well. Perhaps he could have another go, with more information on the following points:

1. Why was the prosecution team in the Soviet Union looking for evidence re Sobibor and Flossenbuerg when Demjanjuk had already been convicted for putative service at Treblinka?

2. Did the prosecution team consider that the conviction was wrong, and that Demjanjuk had not been a guard at Treblinka, at the time they went looking for the evidence? If so, why?

3. Had the Treblinka accusation already been disproved at the time they were looking for new evidence? If so, on the basis of what evidence? And who found that evidence?

Dan
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#49

Post by Dan » 29 May 2002, 15:15

There is lots on Ryan on the internet. His religion doesn't seem to be Catholic, as much as Butt Kisser:

"Ryan is fairly explicit, despite certain efforts to portray the OSI as of vast moment to America's conscience, in acknowledging to whom it is he owes allegiance. As he tells us, when he became head of OSI he was concerned about his not being a Jew. "Could a good lawyer who was not Jewish have the same commitment (to round up and deport alleged war criminals -- ed.)?" As he told his Jewish boss at the Department of Justice, Assistant Attorney General Philip B. Heymann: "I believed that Jewish leaders would be fair enough to give me-and Heymann enough time to judge whether that commitment was there, and whether I could produce results. If I could, my religion would not matter; if I could not, I deserved to get the sack." So much for separation of church and state; so much for justice in America."

This from a right-wing site. A Jewish site makes this shameful organisation seem even worse, but then we're getting off topic..

Dan

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Scott Smith
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I DISAGREE WITH SCOTT: THEREFORE, I AM...

#50

Post by Scott Smith » 29 May 2002, 15:15

Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:No, it was an ad hominem attack from people who disagree with my opinions and are afraid that they might learn something disturbing.
What did this “ad hominem attack” read like?
What? I would have expected that you would have linked to Stephen's words again by now.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:If you disagree with some of his views, remember that disagreement is necessary to think outside of the box, which is why he really scares you.
Sounds a bit infantile, doesn’t it? Nothing scares me, old boy. I enjoy taking apart certain kinds of “scholarship”, as you well know.
Your braggadocio exposes insecurities. I don't relish treating you like this. I have never wanted to harm you in any way, Roberto.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
Walter Kaschner wrote:I simply see no monolithic Jewish Lobby insidiously at work in the US.
That's because no such a thing exists.
A surprising demonstration of intellectual flexibility on the part of a True Believer. Congratulations."
I've always said that there is no monolithic Jewish (or any other) conspiracy. For this I am usually regarded a hypocrite according to Roberto--except now. Perhaps that is progress.
We’re talking about a “lobby” here, Mr. Smith. Not about your professed disbelief in a “conspiracy”, which is unconvincing because the massive manipulation of evidence that would be necessary for your contentions to hold true requires an impossibly well-organized, persistent, all-encompassing and discrete conspiracy.
None of my theses require conspiracy-theory. That is your argument, not mine. In any case, the first thing that one learns in political science about democratic institutions are parties, lobbies and INTEREST GROUPS. This is not conspiracy-theory, as is implied by the word MONOLITHIC. And in any case, the Big-H is a religion that is not only practiced by Jews, no, not by any means.
Roberto wrote:The honest National Socialist despises hypocrites. So do I. I respect Ovidius, but not Smith.
That's because I scare you. Always have for some reason. Even though I try to be reasonable and polite. you've hated me ever since I first rolled my eyes at some of your anti-German Spam.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:And I consider Jews no better or worse than anyone else.
Then why this rambling about their
Scott wrote:…monumental accusation made against Gentiles in general and Germany in particular, that harms the German people--except of course their leaders, and perhaps also the plastic-spoon generation of neo-Germans--and it harms all of the Palestinian people.
Because force-fed atrocity propaganda is not the road to peace and enlightenment, Grasshopper.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:I do think that we need to start learning how to think outside of the classical-liberal, "Bourgeois," Democracy-Capitalist box, however.
Which means looking at National Socialism as an alternative, doesn’t it?
How so? You really can't think-outside-of-the-box, can you?
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:I have always been upfront and open with my views.
Ever heard of the bullshit bingo, buddy? I could easily fill out one with your hollow, hypocritical phrases.
And you base this revelation on what? You disagree with me. Big whoopteedo. That makes me a liar and a hypocrite.
:monkee:

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Roberto
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#51

Post by Roberto » 29 May 2002, 17:24

Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
No, it was an ad hominem attack from people who disagree with my opinions and are afraid that they might learn something disturbing.

What did this “ad hominem attack” read like?

What? I would have expected that you would have linked to Stephen's words again by now.
Oh, that one. Thanks for the reminder:
Brain & David

I felt as you did when I first started posting here a couple of months ago, that is, I thought Roberto did get a bit personal with Scott.

I thought that what Roberto said was so well referenced and researched that it could speak for itself without any personal animosity towards Scott.

However, I must admit that now I do share Roberto's feelings towards Scott. Why? Fundamentally because Scott is intellectually dishonest.

Once you have been here for a while you will notice a pattern to Scott's posts - a topic will be raised, he will vent his usual apologist/revisionist arguments, that will prompt a response from some of the more knowledgable posters correcting his errors, Scott will either acknowledge that his arguments are wrong or contradicted by the evidence (or will just ignore the posts) and the topic will eventually die off.

A few weeks later a similar topic will come up and we are back at square one with Scott, he will raise the same points again and its as if the earlier discussion with him never occurred. He seems to have no capacity to learn or to develop his arguments.

On one view it might be thought that Scott is not particularly bright, that he simply is unable to comprehend why his arguments and "facts" are wrong.

But, if you ever encounter a topic here that does not involve Jews, the Holocaust or Nazi atrocities then you will see that Scott can actually write well reasoned and researched posts and is capable of intelligent debate.

Its just that once a topic comes up that involves his personal biases it seems he is unable to resist the temptation to run the same points again and again, no matter how bad they are, he so desperately wants to believe certain things that he just turns his brain off.

This is starting to ramble, I just think that once you have been here for a while you may understand why Scott is such a source of frustration for quite a few of us.
Source of quote:
Stephen’s post # 47 (5/30/01 3:56:00 am) on the thread

American TV Dramatization of Wannsee Conference
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... 21&stop=40
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
If you disagree with some of his views, remember that disagreement is necessary to think outside of the box, which is why he really scares you.

Sounds a bit infantile, doesn’t it? Nothing scares me, old boy. I enjoy taking apart certain kinds of “scholarship”, as you well know.

Your braggadocio exposes insecurities.
Oh yeah, I’m sure that my posts have revealed to our audience how terribly insecure I am. :lol:
I don't relish treating you like this. I have never wanted to harm you in any way, Roberto.
Relax, buddy. You’ll have to get up earlier if you want to harm me. :aliengray
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
Walter Kaschner wrote:
I simply see no monolithic Jewish Lobby insidiously at work in the US.

A surprising demonstration of intellectual flexibility on the part of a True Believer. Congratulations."
That's because no such a thing exists.

We’re talking about a “lobby” here, Mr. Smith. Not about your professed disbelief in a “conspiracy”, which is unconvincing because the massive manipulation of evidence that would be necessary for your contentions to hold true requires an impossibly well-organized, persistent, all-encompassing and discrete conspiracy.
I've always said that there is no monolithic Jewish (or any other) conspiracy. For this I am usually regarded a hypocrite according to Roberto--except now. Perhaps that is progress.

None of my theses require conspiracy-theory. That is your argument, not mine. In any case, the first thing that one learns in political science about democratic institutions are parties, lobbies and INTEREST GROUPS. This is not conspiracy-theory, as is implied by the word MONOLITHIC. And in any case, the Big-H is a religion that is not only practiced by Jews, no, not by any means.
Tell us, my friend, how would those “interest groups”, “lobbies” or whatever have brought about the systematic falsification of incriminating documents, manipulation of witnesses and defendants and connivance of criminal justice authorities and historians in many countries that would be necessary for your contentions regarding the Nazi extermination camps to hold water?
Roberto wrote:
The honest National Socialist despises hypocrites. So do I. I respect Ovidius, but not Smith.

That's because I scare you.
See me trembling, buddy? I’m sure our audience does. :lol: (starting to get bellyaches)
Always have for some reason.
Some people have a stunning capacity for believing what they would like to believe.
Even though I try to be reasonable and polite.
I could agree to Smith’s hypocritical politeness, which holds as long as you don’t expose his nonsense. But “reasonable”? If he told us he’s running for mayor of Scottsdale, that would be closer to the truth.
you've hated me ever since
You’re misjudging me again, poor soul. How could I possibly hate you, fun as you are to kick around?
I first rolled my eyes at some of your anti-German Spam.
The fact is that I started despising you when you repeated your True Believer sermons once to often. What again was it that you call “spam”, buddy? Arguments and facts that you can’t say anything against, ain’t that so? And what is “anti-German”, in your opinion? Contemptuous of the Nazi regime, which you seem to identify with Germany, perhaps?
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
And I consider Jews no better or worse than anyone else.

Then why this rambling about their

Scott wrote:
…monumental accusation made against Gentiles in general and Germany in particular, that harms the German people--except of course their leaders, and perhaps also the plastic-spoon generation of neo-Germans--and it harms all of the Palestinian people.

Because force-fed atrocity propaganda is not the road to peace and enlightenment, Grasshopper.
Indeed it ain’t, but where’s the force-fed atrocity propaganda? I’d say it’s here:

http://www.codoh.com/zionweb/zioncnsquncs.html

and here:
If the Nazis had murdered millions of innocent people in gas chambers that certainly would have been a great and deplorable crime - but, it would still have been humane compared to what the Allies actually did during World War II. The US and Great Britain murdered millions of innocent people by quite literally roasting them to death. The Jewish involvement in those crimes, especially the nuclear bombing of Japan, are as deep as anyone's


F.P. Berg, quoted after:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ ... nt-of-berg
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
I do think that we need to start learning how to think outside of the classical-liberal, "Bourgeois," Democracy-Capitalist box, however.

Which means looking at National Socialism as an alternative, doesn’t it?

How so? You really can't think-outside-of-the-box, can you?
You should know by now that my problem resides in being unable to think inside any ideological or other box. And I’m not exactly keen to learn, even with a teacher as proficient as Scott Smith at hand.
Roberto wrote:
Scott wrote:
I have always been upfront and open with my views.

Ever heard of the bullshit bingo, buddy? I could easily fill out one with your hollow, hypocritical phrases.

And you base this revelation on what? You disagree with me.


No, my dear boy. Disagreement requires arguments worthy of respect, not the propaganda falsities that you try to sell.
That makes me a liar and a hypocrite.
Indeed it does. A real quack.
Keep the Faith fellow revisionists. The Nazis and the SS were the good guys--but the anti-Nazis and the anti-revisionists dare not admit it for fear of losing their fabulous, ill gotten gains from the war.
“Hoaxbuster” Friedrich Paul Berg on the Codoh discussion forum (still my favorite quote)
http://www.codoh.org/dcforum/DCForumID9/143.html#10

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walterkaschner
In memoriam
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Joined: 13 Mar 2002, 02:17
Location: Houston, Texas

Third reply to Mr. Mills

#52

Post by walterkaschner » 30 May 2002, 07:39

Mr. Mills,

In a previous post I stated that the exculpatory evidence which ultimately led the Israeli Supreme Court to discharge the case against John Demjanjuk was discovered by the Israeli prosecution not the defense, but that I personally felt that it was discovered in the process of the prosecution's search for evidence as to Demjanjuk's service as an SS Wachman at Sobibor and Flossenbürg. You pointed out that this seemed self-contradictory, and posed the following three questions:
1. Why was the prosecution team in the Soviet Union looking for evidence re Sobibor and Flossenbuerg when Demjanjuk had already been convicted for putative service at Treblinka?

2. Did the prosecution team consider that the conviction was wrong, and that Demjanjuk had not been a guard at Treblinka, at the time they went looking for the evidence? If so, why?

3. Had the Treblinka accusation already been disproved at the time they were looking for new evidence? If so, on the basis of what evidence? And who found that evidence?
I suspect that we will never know what precisely was in the hearts and minds of all the players in this sorry story, but here is my understanding of the sequence of major relevant events which I hope will, considered as a whole, provide answers to your questions, or at least as to my views of such answers. As a caution, I should point out that I have not read Gitta Sereny's book, nor that of Yoram Sheftel (Demjanjuk's courageous Israeli lawyer), which I probably should at some point if I ever find the time. Nor is the following based on anything more than what I've been able to find on the internet plus my own recollection. So don't (and I'm certain you wouldn't anyway) take it as exhaustive or as Gospel down to the most minute detail. But I think its generally pretty accurate.

Sometime around 1975 a document of unknown provenance, but apparently derived from Soviet sources, circulated in the US Senate purporting to be a list of persons then in the US who had engaged in Nazi activities during WWII. The name and address of John Demjanjuk appeared on the list, with the indication that he had been an SS Guard (Wachman) first at the Sobibor, then at the Flossenbürg concentration camp.

In reviewing Demjanjuk's file the INS (Immigration and Naturalization Service) found that on one of his visa application documents he had stated that during the war he had been a farmer at Sobibor. This raised a red flag and led the INS to investigate further. It sent a request to an Israeli agency engaged in the investigation of Nazi crimes (the INC) for any information it might have on Demjanjuk, as a guard at Sobibor, or on one Fiodor Federenko, who had also been identified on the list, as a guard at Treblinka. Photographs of the two men were included in the request. Interviews of Israeli survivors of the two camps were held and several survivors of Treblinka identified Demjanjuk as a guard there nick-named "Ivan the Terrible".

Statements of these witnesses were taken by the INC and sent to the INS, which commenced deportation proceedings against both men in 1977. Federenko admitted that he had been a guard at Triblinka, but despite his defense that he had never harmed a hair of anyone he was deported to the Soviet Union, where he was tried, found guilty of war crimes and shot.

Demjanjuk's trial was delayed until early 1981 for a number of reasons, one of which was the success of Elizabeth Holzman, a Congresswoman from a heavily Jewish district in Brooklyn, New York, in persuading the US Department of Justice in 1979 to set up and fund an Office of Special Investigations (OSI), the sole function of which was to investigate and bring deportation proceedings against possible perpetrators of war crimes living in the US. This new Office took over the Demjanjuk case (as well as over a dozen similar ones) from the INS and its deputy head, one Allan Ryan, went to Moscow to attempt to obtain better co-operation from the Soviets as to information relating to the personnel of the Polish concentration camps the records of which were in Soviet possesion. And despite the depth of the Cold War at that time, the Soviets agree to co-operate and did furnish the OSI with a wealth of information, although some of it suggested that there were serious questions as to Demjanjuk's service at Treblinka, while it seemed to confirm his duties as a Sobibor guard.

At this point of time it should be noted that there were no diplomatic relations between the Soviet and the Israeli governments, and the Soviet police and judicial officials refused to have any direct communications with their Israeli counterparts or to co-operate in any way with Israeli war crimes investigations.

Upon reviewing the mass of materials provided by the Soviets and derived from other sources as well, one of the OSI attorneys, a George Parker, became convinced that the evidence would not support a charge that Demjanjuk had been a Wachman at Triblinka, that certain documents and testimony indicated that he was not "Ivan the Terrible" at Treblinka, and that the OSI was ethically compelled to abandon the Treblinka charge and change its emphasis to Sobibor. He wrote a memo to this effect, it was ignored by his superiors, and he resigned. The OSI added a count regarding Sobibor in its case, but continued to rely primarily on the witness testimony about Treblinka, which it had expanded from just the Israeli eye witnesses to include survivors residing in other countries who purported to recognize photographs of Demjanjuk as the Ivan from Treblinka.

When the trial commenced in 1981 the OSI attorneys had not furnished the defense with the various pieces of evidence which in Parker's view (and in mine as well) tended to throw into question Demjanjuk's presence at Treblinka (which they were obliged to do under US practice), nor did they ever furnish it to the Israeli prosecutors. Demjanjuk's own testimony at the trial was a disaster; he contradicted himself, came up with a quantity of incredible testimony, and was ripped apart on cross examination. Based on the evidence that he had indeed gone through the SS Wachman training course, and the testimony of some 10 eye-witness survivors that he had been a guard at Treblinka, the Court ruled against him without considering the Sobibor issue.

During the course of various appeals the OSI attorneys considered trying to deport him to the Soviet Union, where they hoped he might be tried for war crimes, but the Soviets were not interested. The OSI then approached the Israelis, who after some consideration agreed that they would be willing to charge him with war crimes and ask for his extradition (NOT deportation) to Israel. This was on the basis of the US court decision that he had been an SS Wachman at Treblinka, which presumably the Israelis assumed would also stand up in an Israeli court, being unaware of the exculpatory evidence on this issue which the OSI had withheld from the defense as well as the Israelis and had no intention at this juncure of letting it get out to anyone.

Demjanjuk finally exhausted all his appeals in the US in 1986 and was extradited to stand trial in Israel. In the meantime the Israeli prosecutors had been trying, with little or no success, to obtain through third party brokers any and all information which the Soviet authorities held concerning Demjanjuk and others whom they thought might have been guilty of war crimes. There were still no diplomatic relations between the two countries and the Soviets were not receptive, except to furnish 3 or 4 documents, apparently at OSI request.

The trial commenced in early 1987 and ended about a year later with Demjanjuk's conviction. He again proved to be a terrible witness for himself, and the defense, quite naturally, shied away from the argument that Demjanjuk could not have been the Ivan of Treblinka because he was in fact an SS Wachman at Sobibor at the time.

An appeal was taken from the verdict which was heard by the Israeli Supreme Court commencing in May, 1990. And in the meantime two things had happened. The Soviet Union and the relationship between Soviet and Israeli prosecutorial authorities had begun to thaw out significantly. And serious questions had been begun to be publically raised about whether one Ivan Marshenko, rather than John (Ivan) Demjanjuk, had really been the infamous Ivan of Treblinka.

A television broadcast in early 1990 by the CBS' "60 Minutes" program involved an interview with the widow of one Kazimir Dudek, a resident of a village about a mile from Treblinka. In an investigation by Polish authorities a few years before, Kazimir had identified a photo of Demjanjuk as one of Ivan Marshenko, a guard at Treblinka. The Israelis were aware of this, and had assumed that Demjanjuk had used the name as an alias, as it was also his mother's maiden name. But on "60 Minutes" Maria Dudek said that she had slept with Marshenko when he visited her village off-duty for vodka and sex and that he was the real Ivan of Treblinka, casting doubt on her late husband's identification of Demjanjuk.

In addition, in the Spring of 1990, the British author Gitta Sereny, who had specialized in and published a study of the Treblinka camp, became convinced that there had been a case of mistaken identity and commenced and publicized an investigation of her own. Moreover, in May 1990 US Congressman Traficant, who had many Ukranians in his Congressiaonal District and had become an extremely vocal Demjanjuk supporter, managed to come up with a 27 year old statement of a surviving Treblinka guard, which identified Marshenko and six others as also serving as Wachmänner at the camp, but Demjanjuk's name was not among them.

There was a great flurry of publicity in the US as a result of these developments, much of it IMHO politically inspired, but undoubtedly picked up by the antennae of the Israeli authorities, who I am confident are ever alert to public opinion trends in the US.

My belief is that by the time of the May-June 1990 hearings on the Israeli Supreme Court appeal, the Israeli prosecutors had to begin to feel that their case on Treblinka might turn out to be somewhat shakier than they thought. They were still not aware, I believe, that the OSI had withheld from them evidence which tended to be exculpatory of the Treblinka charge (this did not come out until mid 1992, as a result of an investigation ordered sua sponte by the US 6th Circuit Court of Appeals in light of all the publicity the case had been receiving), but the Demjanjuk defense had clearly been reenergized by the above developments, and was starting to investigate the Marshenko angle on its own.

At that point, in my experience any lawyer worth his salt would start looking (1) for evidence which could confirm his principal theory of his case, and (2) for alternative theories, if he felt his principal line of attack were being threatened. And, in fairness, there may always be an itch to know the true facts and to avoid an injustice - despite our general reputation, there are still some of us (perhaps no longer too many) who hold notions of ethics, fair play and justice dear to our hearts. So I will concede that in my previous post I may have been a little too hard on the Israeli prosecutors in thinking that, in their efforts to obtain more evidence from the Soviets, they were simply trying to lay a case for a conviction based on Demjanjuk's activities at Sobibor and Flossenbürg. But if they were competent and professional lawyers, and they seem to have been, that had to be a strong motive as well.

In any event, in the Autumn of 1990 representatives of Demjanjuk journied to the city on the Black Sea where Federenko had been tried in an attempt to review the court files of that case. The Soviets refused them access, but turned over the voluminous files to the Israeli prosecutors in December of that year in Moscow, and during the course of the next two years in a spirit of relatively warm cooperation, the Israeli prosecutors sought and were granted access to relevant files from many other jurisdictions. All of this evidence that touched on the Demjanjuk case being furnished to the defense as well. These files contained documentary evidence which cast serious doubt on Demjanjuk's service at Treblinka but confirmed his service at Sobibor. And as they also seemed to confirm his subsequent service as an SS Wachman at Flossenbürg, the Israeli prosecutors visited the national West German archives at Koblentz and obtained damning confirmatory evidence that such was indeed the case. All in all, a total of some 1800 pages of additional documentary evidence, handwritten in Russian and translated into Hebrew and English, was dug up by the prosecution, furnished to the defense and ultimately submitted to the Supreme Court during the appelate process and admitted into evidence. This was highly unusual, as (in the US and I understand the same is true in Israel) the record evidence is usually frozen at the trial court level, and additional evidence admitted on appeal only on very rare instances.

This continued investigation, together with a host of defense motions for summary dismissal of the case, delayed the appeal process and the final verdict, which held that the case against Demjanjuk as a Treblika Wachman had not been proved beyond a reasonable doubt and refused to consider the charges based on his service at Sobibor and Flossenbürg, was not issued until mid-1993.

For whatever it may be worth, had I been in the shoes of the Israeli prosecutors in 1990, I would also have begun to be concerned (as I think they were) that my victory in the lower court might just be threatened to be reversed on appeal in light of all the heavy publicity of facts I had not been aware of. As a consequence, I would grasp at any and every legitimate opportunity to find out the true facts of the case and to establish, if at all possible, an alternative theory to support the lower court decision if that should turn out to be necessary. So I really don't see anything self-contradictory in my prior post at all.

I'm sorry this is so long winded and boring, but I thought an understanding of the probable motives of the Israeli prosecutors would best be illuminated against a detailed background. I hope it helps answer your questions.

Regards, Kaschner

Dan
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Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 15:06
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#53

Post by Dan » 30 May 2002, 14:56

Wasn't it illegal for the OSI to withhold this evidence that threw doubt on his being at Treblinka?

Thanks
Dan

walterkaschner
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Posts: 1588
Joined: 13 Mar 2002, 02:17
Location: Houston, Texas

#54

Post by walterkaschner » 30 May 2002, 17:57

Hi Dan,

Yes, it was illegal in the sense that it vitiated the outcome of Demjanjuk's first trial in the US. The verdict in that case was reversed by a US District Court for that very reason, and Demjanjuk's US citizenship was restored (only of course to be lost again after the 2d trial).

Was it illegal in the sense that the OSI lawyers could have gone to jail because of it? If it had been an intentional attempt to obstruct justice they were probably guilty of a crime. However, the US 6th Circuit Court of Appeals on its own motion ordered an investigation of the case, which concluded that it was not "intentional", and the District Court which reversed the earlier finding said it was "reckless", i.e. careless but not intentional. I don't know enough of the circumstances to judge, but one of the attorneys did apparently feel strongly enough about the situation to resign his job.

Regards, Kaschner

Dan
Member
Posts: 8429
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 15:06
Location: California

#55

Post by Dan » 30 May 2002, 20:57

Thanks. There do seem to be ethical lawyers left, they just aren't made welcome in the OSI.

Regards
Dan

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