Definition for Antisemitism

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Northwood
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Definition for Antisemitism

#1

Post by Northwood » 22 May 2002, 18:41

Due to an actual discussion in my home country Germany, i would like to ask the visitors of this forum for a short and precise definition of antisemitism, perhaps with a little historical background. Thank you.

Xanthro
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#2

Post by Xanthro » 22 May 2002, 19:22

Anti-semitism is just a polite way of saying Jew Hater. In fact, that's why the term was coined because Jew Hater was too harsh.

What makes someone a Jew Hater? When they start claiming some special status or ability of Jews.

Saying, "I disagree with Sharon's methods in dealing with the Palenstians" doesn't make you a Jew Hater. Just someone who disagrees with a policy.

Saying, "Jews kill Muslim childern to use their blood in rituals, and therefore no Jew should have control over a Muslim" makes you a Jew hater. Though that one should be obvious.

Saying, "No Jewish state should have Muslim citizens" is still a statement of Jew Hatred.

Jews are no different than anyone else. Isreal has Muslim citizens, just as some Muslim countries have Jewish citizens. To claim something soley based on the "Jewishness" of the situation is Jew hating. Discounting of course, actual theological discussions.

Xanthro


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Starinov
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#3

Post by Starinov » 22 May 2002, 20:36

good answer Xanthro

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Scott Smith
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Anti-anti-Semitism...

#4

Post by Scott Smith » 22 May 2002, 21:51

Xanthro wrote:What makes someone a Jew Hater? When they start claiming some special status or ability of Jews.
Or discounting (diabolically, no doubt) that Jews have unique status and moral privilege in the history of the world. Jews possess the same virtue as anyone else and should have the same rights and responsibilities as any other human being.
:wink:

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Starinov
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#5

Post by Starinov » 22 May 2002, 22:26

When he met with an anti-Semite, my dad used to say that all the world's problems were the fault of:

1.: the Jews
2.: the Free Masons
3.: the cyclists

"Why the cyclists ?" was always the question that followed that statement. "And why the Jews?" was my father's reply. :D

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Scott Smith
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GOD's PEOPLE...

#6

Post by Scott Smith » 22 May 2002, 23:37

Starinov wrote:When he met with an anti-Semite, my dad used to say that all the world's problems were the fault of:

1.: the Jews
2.: the Free Masons
3.: the cyclists

"Why the cyclists ?" was always the question that followed that statement. "And why the Jews?" was my father's reply. :D
Any religious group holds that its believers are SPECIAL, that it is a sect closer to God.

Through long millenia of totalitarian Faith, pointless crusades, inquistions, and bitter internecine wars, Westerners developed Tolerance and the separation of Church and State. They have mostly rejected tribalism and relied upon conversion by persuasion and not by force.

And they do not normally regard non-Believers as Evil.

Assimilation is the enemy of the JEW. Or at least the "Jew" by conventional terms. The last bastion for the "Jew" is the Jewish State. Without that, the Jews become just the Mormons or the Episcopalians, or the Irish with a longer history.

And Gentiles cease to be the Devil.

Of course, I mean what Israel and the Holy Land SYMBOLIZES for Christians and Jews (especially Americans) and not a small oilless nation-state in the Middle-East itself, with Jewish and Muslim and atheist citizens.

To "Deny" the Gaschambers (or whatever is meant by the trademarking of the Shoah-Holocaust) is to Deny that the PURPOSE of the Gentile is to EXTERMINATE the Jew. Anti-Denial is a weapon in the arsenal of Groupthink because "Denial" is an attack against "God." And Groupthink means that to attack ONE you attack ALL.

To say that nobody OWNS History is to utterly DENY the Myth and Memory of those who think that THEY own it.
:)
Marc Bloch wrote: "Unfortunately the habit of passing judgments leads to a loss of taste for explanations. When the passions of the past blend with the prejudices of the present, human reality is reduced to a picture in black and white."

(French Historiographer and Martyr, 1886-1944.)

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Victor´s Justice?
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Re: Anti-anti-Semitism...

#7

Post by Victor´s Justice? » 22 May 2002, 23:41

Or discounting (diabolically, no doubt) that Jews have unique status and moral privilege in the history of the world. Jews possess the same virtue as anyone else and should have the same rights and responsibilities as any other human being.
They are just as special as anyone else on this world, although some still can´t apprehend that. Period.

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Victor´s Justice?
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Re: GOD's PEOPLE...

#8

Post by Victor´s Justice? » 22 May 2002, 23:47

Any religious group holds that its believers are SPECIAL, that it is a sect closer to God.

Through long millenia of totalitarian Faith, pointless crusades, inquistions, and bitter internecine wars, Westerners developed Tolerance and the separation of Church and State. They have mostly rejected tribalism and relied upon conversion by persuasion and not by force.

And they do not normally regard non-Believers as Evil.

Assimilation is the enemy of the JEW. Or at least the "Jew" by conventional terms. The last bastion for the "Jew" is the Jewish State. Without that, the Jews become just the Mormons or the Episcopalians, or the Irish with a longer history.

And Gentiles cease to be the Devil.

Of course, I mean what Israel and the Holy Land SYMBOLIZES for Christians and Jews (especially Americans) and not a small oilless nation-state in the Middle-East itself, with Jewish and Muslim and atheist citizens.

To "Deny" the Gaschambers (or whatever is meant by the trademarking of the Shoah-Holocaust) is to Deny that the PURPOSE of the Gentile is to EXTERMINATE the Jew. Anti-Denial is a weapon in the arsenal of Groupthink because "Denial" is an attack against "God." And Groupthink means that to attack ONE you attack ALL.

To say that nobody OWNS History is to utterly DENY the Myth and Memory of those who think that THEY own it.
:)
Add to that the fact that maybe Judaism is the only major sect/religion still rooted on a specific ethnic group, thus making such assimilation worries even more real.

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#9

Post by Xanthro » 23 May 2002, 00:12

Through long millenia of totalitarian Faith, pointless crusades, inquistions, and bitter internecine wars, Westerners developed Tolerance and the separation of Church and State. They have mostly rejected tribalism and relied upon conversion by persuasion and not by force.

And they do not normally regard non-Believers as Evil.

Assimilation is the enemy of the JEW. Or at least the "Jew" by conventional terms. The last bastion for the "Jew" is the Jewish State. Without that, the Jews become just the Mormons or the Episcopalians, or the Irish with a longer history.

And Gentiles cease to be the Devil.
Now that is a Jew Hating statement!!

First, a Jew is no different than a Mormon, or a Epsicopalian. It's a reglion. While all reglions try to encourage their own growth, and hold themselves a special place in relation to their diety, you make it out as if the Jewish religion is somehow fundamentally both different and more sinsister than other religions.

More Jews live in the United States than live in Isreal. They are no more likely to be destroyed by assimilation than are Catholics.

You post as if Tolerance and Separation of Church and State are something the Judaism rejects. It's SICK.

The head of the British Government is the Head of the Church of England. Do you claim the English are non-Western?

In Isreal, the President has no religious duties at all. The members of government don't claim a divine right to rule, unlike the Queen of England.

To argue that Jews view Gentiles as the "devil" is just pathetic, and shows a incredible lack of theological thinking. I doubt you know the tenents of any major religion.

Xanthro

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#10

Post by Northwood » 23 May 2002, 00:51

So we have an interesting question now : do you call it antisemitism, if people (politicans) of foreign countries (e.g.Germany) criticize the actual politic of Sharon and his fellowers ?

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Are Ye God's People?

#11

Post by Scott Smith » 23 May 2002, 01:20

Xanthro wrote:
Through long millenia of totalitarian Faith, pointless crusades, inquistions, and bitter internecine wars, Westerners developed Tolerance and the separation of Church and State. They have mostly rejected tribalism and relied upon conversion by persuasion and not by force.

And they do not normally regard non-Believers as Evil.

Assimilation is the enemy of the JEW. Or at least the "Jew" by conventional terms. The last bastion for the "Jew" is the Jewish State. Without that, the Jews become just the Mormons or the Episcopalians, or the Irish with a longer history.

And Gentiles cease to be the Devil.
Now that is a Jew Hating statement!!
Xanthro disagrees therefore I am the Devil, M'kay...
First, a Jew is no different than a Mormon, or a Epsicopalian. It's a reglion.
No, Jews are much more than a religion. I have never heard of an atheist-Mormon. Although perhaps that would apply in my case.
:wink:
While all reglions try to encourage their own growth, and hold themselves a special place in relation to their diety, you make it out as if the Jewish religion is somehow fundamentally both different and more sinsister than other religions.
No, Jews are not a proselyting religion. And I do not agree with the statement that the Jewish religion is more sinister than any other. I do not regard ANY religion with much sympathy, as anybody familiar with my writing on this board knows. I DO believe in Tolerance, however. And I would defend Jews the same as anyone from zealots. I have stated in the past that I admire the secular orientation of many Jews, more so than "fundamentalist" Christians. I believe in the widest possible separation of Church and State; and Jews, being a minority themselves, tend to be in favor of that, save for the ultra-Orthodox, perhaps.
More Jews live in the United States than live in Isreal. They are no more likely to be destroyed by assimilation than are Catholics.
I disagree. Just reading Jewish periodicals betrays that fear of assimilation. I am neither for or against assimilation. I have stated in the past that the Americans should HAVE allowed Jewish immigration before and during WWII when the Jews were threatened by European anti-Semitism. I don't see how an American anti-Semite could say that.
You post as if Tolerance and Separation of Church and State are something the Judaism rejects. It's SICK.
No, secular Jews say just the opposite in my experience, especially in relation to Über-Christians. America is a Puritan country that is overcontrolled by Fundamentalists, IMHO. But when it comes to Israel, for the Jews and many Christians the philosophy waxes suddenly symbolic and orthodox (for want of a better didactical term). Perhaps you are confusing me with the anti-Deniers (Zionists?) who cannot abide free speech, Xanthro. In any case, I am not saying that Jews DO accept the Lipstadtian position but that they shouldn't. Free speech is more important to all of us--even to those of us who are Jews.
The head of the British Government is the Head of the Church of England. Do you claim the English are non-Western?
No, but their monarchy is Medieval and should be ashcanned, IMHO.
In Isreal, the President has no religious duties at all. The members of government don't claim a divine right to rule, unlike the Queen of England.
Israel is a "Jewish State" and that cannot be denied. Perhaps she would truly just be another nation if it were not for American Jews and Christians for whom she has a SYMBOLIC, theosophic and apocalyptic significance. "Trust God and pass the anti-radiation pills..." If Israel were just another nation, like any other, she would have to get along with her neighbors, whether some of them believe in her theocratic right to exist or not.
To argue that Jews view Gentiles as the "devil" is just pathetic, and shows a incredible lack of theological thinking. I doubt you know the tenents of any major religion.
M'kay, so you have God's Peculiar People and those who are "foreigners," not the Devil, as I stated. It is all a matter of degree. A zealot is one who has no tolerance for the Other; he believes that he is serving God by fighting the Devil.

For Or Against God, Xanthro?

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#12

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 23 May 2002, 05:51

so what is the differnce Between anti-Semite and Judophobe?

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#13

Post by michael mills » 23 May 2002, 06:06

so what is the differnce Between anti-Semite and Judophobe?
The term "judeophobia" refers to an EMOTION, a hatred or fear of Jews.

The term "anti-Semitism" strictly speaking refers to a POLITICAL MOVEMENT that opposes Jewish political, economic and cultural influence on the basis that Jews constitute a culturally and ethnically foreign group using their acquisition of the citizenship of the countries in which they live in order to gain power and influence in those countries to the benefit of their own group exclusively. Unlike "anti-Judaism", it does not oppose Jews on religious grounds.

In practice, the term "anti-Semitism" is generally used synonymously with "judeophobia".

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re

#14

Post by tonyh » 23 May 2002, 15:48

A lot of people don't really know what it means to be Jewish. This is the problem. One does not have to be a Jew to be a member of the Jewish religion, however "Jewishness" is not confined to a religion. It is also an ethnic group. This is the uniqueness of the position of the Jews as a body of people. Many Jews are atheist, by they remain part of the Jews as an ethnic category. I had a friend once who was as he said a "blood Jew", meaning he was part of the Jews as an ethnicity, but he was not part of Judaism or any religion.

So is anti-Semitism to be against the Jews as a religious sect?

Or is anti-Semitism to be against the Jews as an ethnic group?

I would say the proper application is the second one. I am against organised religion as whole, regardless of what it is. This includes my own organised religion, Catholicism.

However. the slur of anti-Semite is thrown about willy-nilly by a lot of people that have never really thought about what the term is supposed to mean. So at the end of the day, its means everything and nothing, in other words as much or as little as the person throwing it wants it to mean.

Tony

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#15

Post by Birgitte Heuschkel » 23 May 2002, 16:28

Northwood wrote:So we have an interesting question now : do you call it antisemitism, if people (politicans) of foreign countries (e.g.Germany) criticize the actual politic of Sharon and his fellowers ?
Certainly not, though I have been receiving some comments down that road myself when I, in a fit of very morbid crankiness responded that from the looks of what happened at Jenin, some of these older associates of Sharon's learned their lessons in the 40's quite well.

To disagree with Sharon's policies is not to be anti-semitic. I also disagree with my own foreign minister's policities, yet no one would think to label me anti-Danish for that reason.

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