Czech crimes?
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David Thompson
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Dear moderator,David Thompson wrote:Luca -- Please post in the English language, so the majority of the readers can understand what you're telling them.
sorry very much for my last message.
As you well know my knowledge of the english language is similar only to my friendly with cesky pivo..or maybe not?
with respect
Luca
+ or - ...Glynwed wrote:10.June 1940 the Pragues gestapo undertake the „small fortres“ in Terezín and established jail here. In October 1941 was Terezín choosen to build here a collecting lager – jewish ghetto. In 1942 were czech population dishouse from the whole city and Terezín became transfer station in way to annihilation camps (mainly to Osvìtim). Throw Terezín pass more than 160.000 peoples (Jewish, political oponents). The end of this became in night from 8.-9.May 1945, when the sity was sized by soviet 3.gards tank army. In early stage it was „samply camp“, but with war progress, it became the regular part of genocide.Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:One thing who shows your lack of knowledge is to mentionate Theresienstadt .....it was a ''vitrine'' for the Gestapo (by the way the only KZ administrated by the Gestapo and not by the Totenkopf Wachtsturmbannen....) the only KZ visited by the Red Cross and reserved in part for jewish VIP...so this goes straight against your own arguments.Try SERIOUSLY harder
This is very interesting, if this is really.
with sincerly regards
Luca
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michael mills
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I suggest reading the following book:
"Starvation over Europe (made in Germany) : a documented record, 1943", written by Boris Schub on the basis of research by Zorach Wahrhaftig, published in New York by the Institute of Jewish Affairs of the American Jewish Congress and World Jewish Congress, 1943.
That book gives details of the food rations assigned to the various peoples of German-occupied Europe by the German authorities. It shows that the rations given to the Czechs were almost equal to those given to the Germans, and even higher for some food categories; they were certainly considerably higher than the rations allotted to the Poles, and vastly greater than those granted to the Jews and, surprisingly, the unfortunate Greeks.
For the great majority of the population of occupied Europe, what mattered was their access to food and other necessities of life. Most people by far did not care all that much if small minorities of resisters were being harshly persecuted as long as they themselves were adequately fed, clothed and housed.
What mattered to the Czechs as a whole was an adequate income and sufficient access to goods at a reasonable price on which to spend that income. Heydrich secured that for the Czechs by on the one hand violently exterminating black marketeers who charged very high prices, and on the other hand establishing a fair and efficient rationing system at the German level and raising wages so as to ensure an adequate standard of living. In doing so, he succeeded in reconciling the great majority of the Czech people to German rule and cutting the ground from under the feeble resistance movement.
The Czech Government-in-Exile set out to assassinate Heydrich for the precise purpose of provoking a brutal German over-reaction, thereby upsetting the modus vivendi which the rational Heydrich had established. In so doing, they were following exactly the same tactic as more recent terrorist movements such as the Baader-Meinhof Gang or the Red Brigades in Italy, which through the perpetration of violent acts against symbols of the establishment hoped to provoke an authoritarian crack-down that would discredit governments in the eyes of the people.
The Low cartoon posted by the moderator is interesting, but does not portray historical truth; it is a product of British propaganda. Remeber that Low was a Leftist propagandist, and not a dispassionate analyst of current events.
The position taken by Benoit Douville is governed by the ultra-nationalist Slavic fantasy according to which all Slavic peoples were brutally oppressed by the Germans.
Of course, the Germans did perpetrate some very brutal oppression over specific groups during their occupation of Europe, and in a minority of cases, in particular their treatment of the Jews, their oppression reached an intensity that has hardly been matched (perhaps only by the Bolshevik quasi-extermination of certain groups such as Cossacks or rebellious peasants). And some Slav groups were very harshly treated, eg Poles in the annexed territories and the Generalgouvernement, and Great Russians. However, other Slavic groups under German overlordship received quite favourable treatment, for example the Czechs and the ethnic Polish minority in Belorussia and Ukraine. And that is leaving out of the equation Slavic peoples allied to Germany, eg Slovaks, Croats, Bosnians, Bulgarians, who were not under German rule at all.
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"Starvation over Europe (made in Germany) : a documented record, 1943", written by Boris Schub on the basis of research by Zorach Wahrhaftig, published in New York by the Institute of Jewish Affairs of the American Jewish Congress and World Jewish Congress, 1943.
That book gives details of the food rations assigned to the various peoples of German-occupied Europe by the German authorities. It shows that the rations given to the Czechs were almost equal to those given to the Germans, and even higher for some food categories; they were certainly considerably higher than the rations allotted to the Poles, and vastly greater than those granted to the Jews and, surprisingly, the unfortunate Greeks.
For the great majority of the population of occupied Europe, what mattered was their access to food and other necessities of life. Most people by far did not care all that much if small minorities of resisters were being harshly persecuted as long as they themselves were adequately fed, clothed and housed.
What mattered to the Czechs as a whole was an adequate income and sufficient access to goods at a reasonable price on which to spend that income. Heydrich secured that for the Czechs by on the one hand violently exterminating black marketeers who charged very high prices, and on the other hand establishing a fair and efficient rationing system at the German level and raising wages so as to ensure an adequate standard of living. In doing so, he succeeded in reconciling the great majority of the Czech people to German rule and cutting the ground from under the feeble resistance movement.
The Czech Government-in-Exile set out to assassinate Heydrich for the precise purpose of provoking a brutal German over-reaction, thereby upsetting the modus vivendi which the rational Heydrich had established. In so doing, they were following exactly the same tactic as more recent terrorist movements such as the Baader-Meinhof Gang or the Red Brigades in Italy, which through the perpetration of violent acts against symbols of the establishment hoped to provoke an authoritarian crack-down that would discredit governments in the eyes of the people.
The Low cartoon posted by the moderator is interesting, but does not portray historical truth; it is a product of British propaganda. Remeber that Low was a Leftist propagandist, and not a dispassionate analyst of current events.
The position taken by Benoit Douville is governed by the ultra-nationalist Slavic fantasy according to which all Slavic peoples were brutally oppressed by the Germans.
Of course, the Germans did perpetrate some very brutal oppression over specific groups during their occupation of Europe, and in a minority of cases, in particular their treatment of the Jews, their oppression reached an intensity that has hardly been matched (perhaps only by the Bolshevik quasi-extermination of certain groups such as Cossacks or rebellious peasants). And some Slav groups were very harshly treated, eg Poles in the annexed territories and the Generalgouvernement, and Great Russians. However, other Slavic groups under German overlordship received quite favourable treatment, for example the Czechs and the ethnic Polish minority in Belorussia and Ukraine. And that is leaving out of the equation Slavic peoples allied to Germany, eg Slovaks, Croats, Bosnians, Bulgarians, who were not under German rule at all.
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mills wrote;
Interesting would it matter to mills if the Australians were taking orders say from the Japs ...?
Living under the foreign occupation and taking orders from the invaders of course doesn't matter at all in the mills universe.. :roll:What mattered to the Czechs as a whole was an adequate income and sufficient access to goods at a reasonable price on which to spend that income
Interesting would it matter to mills if the Australians were taking orders say from the Japs ...?
Michael, how did the food rationing work? I mean I would think the urban dwellers were the most affected. If a peasant or small holder was restricted to a certain amount of, say, sugar, could they sell surplus turnups, strawberries, eggs, etc? Were the prices for this kind of produce set? I would seem that someone with a half acre of ground could have made out pretty well.
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michael mills
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I am not sure of the actual mechanics of food rationing in either Germany proper or in the Protectorate of Bohemia-Moravia.Michael, how did the food rationing work? I mean I would think the urban dwellers were the most affected. If a peasant or small holder was restricted to a certain amount of, say, sugar, could they sell surplus turnups, strawberries, eggs, etc? Were the prices for this kind of produce set? I would seem that someone with a half acre of ground could have made out pretty well.
I know that in Germany there were laws prohibiting the private slaughter of farm animals by their owners, with some pretty savage penalties, including the death penalty if my memory serves me correctly. The purpose of the law was of course to ensure that all supplies of meat from the farms flowed into the official rationing system and were not diverted to the farmer's own consumption or sale on the black market.
In any system of food rationing, the greatest problem is to control the actions of the food producers, the farmers, who will always be tempted to sell their produce into the black market at much higher prices than those paid by the official buyers for the rationing authorities. During the War that applied just as much in Britain as in Germany.
As far as I can recall, private food production on private plots of land, over and above official production destined for the rationing system, was permitted and encouraged in Germany (but only for vegetables and fruits).
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michael mills
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Witness wrote:
If my standard of living was not badly affected, and I could go on living a normal life, I would not risk my own safety and that of my family by resiting the invader.
If the invaders started bashing up people I do not like, while leaving me alone, I might even approve of them. If they hanged Howard with piano wire I would not object.
I gain the impression that Americans consider right and proper that peoples currently occupied by the armed forces of the United States should love their occupation, since the Americans are bringing them McDonalds and KFC. And it may well be that a lot of those occupied peoples are quite content to co-operate with the American occupiers, so long as they are able to go on living a normal life without harassment. I find it strange therefore that the assumption is made that people living under the occupation of another power, say Germany, will automatically want to resist.
I would not like taking orders from a foreign invader. But then again, I do not like taking orders from local authorities.Living under the foreign occupation and taking orders from the invaders of course doesn't matter at all in the mills universe..
Interesting would it matter to mills if the Australians were taking orders say from the Japs ...?
If my standard of living was not badly affected, and I could go on living a normal life, I would not risk my own safety and that of my family by resiting the invader.
If the invaders started bashing up people I do not like, while leaving me alone, I might even approve of them. If they hanged Howard with piano wire I would not object.
I gain the impression that Americans consider right and proper that peoples currently occupied by the armed forces of the United States should love their occupation, since the Americans are bringing them McDonalds and KFC. And it may well be that a lot of those occupied peoples are quite content to co-operate with the American occupiers, so long as they are able to go on living a normal life without harassment. I find it strange therefore that the assumption is made that people living under the occupation of another power, say Germany, will automatically want to resist.
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Ostuf Charlemagne
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Panzermahn and Rudi :Pretty to the point !!!!!!!!!!
Glynwed : Welcome aboard ! even if we gone to disagree
You are quite right,but the fact remains that Theriesenstadt was a ''vitrine'' for the Red Cross and had a VIP section,ask any KZ survivor and ask him where he would have preferred to spend the war ,if in Auschwitz or Theriensenstadt......( by the way,Dachau too had a VIP section,where for instance former jewish socialist president of France Leon Blum,spent some years,having the privilege to cut his hair ,civilian style- at the SS haidresser saloon, sipping tea with his wife and being not ounderweight when he was liberated)
Luca : In english,please ! (A Noi !)
The cartoon : British propaganda.....i can start scanning axis propaganda if these cartoons are considered as evidences ?!?!?!
Oleg : You are recurring to insults against Panzermahn,instead of facts..
Control yourself,man...(the purpose of a forum is to exchange toughts and facts and theories....if everybody think the same way,this forum will become boring soon.)
If we compare who committed more atrocities,the soviets may lead the top 10...and what about the nuclears bombs against japanese civilian targets ? but as said -rightly- Marcus (for once i agree with him !) let's keep to the topic .
now it may be unfair to drop the moral responsablities of soviet atrocities on the russian people.. i think real responsables was propaganda makers like the soviet jewish poet Ilhya Ehrenburg,personnal friend of Stalin who declared to speeches (and pamphlets) for the Red Army : '' No german is innocent,not even the unborn babies...kill them in the belly of their mothers,brave soldiers of the Red Army,take the german women as a reward,take away their pride !''
This started at Gumbinnen as soon as the Red Army reached german soil .
That's what means Panzermahn and this is too much documented (as during the battle of Berlin) for be a non sense... ( i beg your pardon !)
But you are right in one point,Oleg,the sudeten were more mistreated by the Benes administration than the czechs by the Heydrich administration...a fact who changed radically after the assassination of Heydrich,thanks to the stupids german retaliations,wich was exactly the goal of the british intelligence....(second goal being to save the ass of conspirator Canaris, to whom Heydrich was coming close to unmask !)
About Bormann : Skorzeny wrote that he was sure that Bormann was working for the soviets and so misguided Hitler with bad advise....may it be a proof of that ? I don't know.....but if it is not so,Bormann was always one of the most stupid and inept Nazi. Rosenberg had a very different point of view.
And for add to the czechs war crimes ,let's remember that the 31th SS division ended the war in Czechoslovaquia,surrendering after May 8th...
Then most of those soldiers were slaughtered by the czechs partisans,up to the point that the soviets had to protect them ! And the soviets weren't particularly tenders.... so.....
Glynwed : Welcome aboard ! even if we gone to disagree
You are quite right,but the fact remains that Theriesenstadt was a ''vitrine'' for the Red Cross and had a VIP section,ask any KZ survivor and ask him where he would have preferred to spend the war ,if in Auschwitz or Theriensenstadt......( by the way,Dachau too had a VIP section,where for instance former jewish socialist president of France Leon Blum,spent some years,having the privilege to cut his hair ,civilian style- at the SS haidresser saloon, sipping tea with his wife and being not ounderweight when he was liberated)
Luca : In english,please ! (A Noi !)
The cartoon : British propaganda.....i can start scanning axis propaganda if these cartoons are considered as evidences ?!?!?!
Oleg : You are recurring to insults against Panzermahn,instead of facts..
Control yourself,man...(the purpose of a forum is to exchange toughts and facts and theories....if everybody think the same way,this forum will become boring soon.)
If we compare who committed more atrocities,the soviets may lead the top 10...and what about the nuclears bombs against japanese civilian targets ? but as said -rightly- Marcus (for once i agree with him !) let's keep to the topic .
now it may be unfair to drop the moral responsablities of soviet atrocities on the russian people.. i think real responsables was propaganda makers like the soviet jewish poet Ilhya Ehrenburg,personnal friend of Stalin who declared to speeches (and pamphlets) for the Red Army : '' No german is innocent,not even the unborn babies...kill them in the belly of their mothers,brave soldiers of the Red Army,take the german women as a reward,take away their pride !''
This started at Gumbinnen as soon as the Red Army reached german soil .
That's what means Panzermahn and this is too much documented (as during the battle of Berlin) for be a non sense... ( i beg your pardon !)
But you are right in one point,Oleg,the sudeten were more mistreated by the Benes administration than the czechs by the Heydrich administration...a fact who changed radically after the assassination of Heydrich,thanks to the stupids german retaliations,wich was exactly the goal of the british intelligence....(second goal being to save the ass of conspirator Canaris, to whom Heydrich was coming close to unmask !)
About Bormann : Skorzeny wrote that he was sure that Bormann was working for the soviets and so misguided Hitler with bad advise....may it be a proof of that ? I don't know.....but if it is not so,Bormann was always one of the most stupid and inept Nazi. Rosenberg had a very different point of view.
And for add to the czechs war crimes ,let's remember that the 31th SS division ended the war in Czechoslovaquia,surrendering after May 8th...
Then most of those soldiers were slaughtered by the czechs partisans,up to the point that the soviets had to protect them ! And the soviets weren't particularly tenders.... so.....
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Ostuf Charlemagne
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Really ? Any proof perhaps ?But you are right in one point,Oleg,the sudeten were more mistreated by the Benes administration than the czechs by the Heydrich administration
My emphasis.Ironically enough,in view of what is now to be set down here,the Sudeten Germans had fared tolerably well in Czechoslovakian state -
certainly better then any other minority in the country and better then the German minorities in Poland and in Fascist Italy.
( W.Shirer "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" )
The Sudeten Germans lived in the northwest and southwest industrial ares of Czechoslovakia and as a consequense often were better off then the other minorities or even the Czechs.
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Ostuf Charlemagne
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I have the books of Shirer..... a bit biased against III Reich!!! - an ounderstatement-in his memories he recognized he passed informations about his time in Germany ,to the british intelligence ...so find a more honest author,please .
(it's like if i was throwing you as evidences the speechs of Goebbels,for instance !)
By the way ,wasn't he jew ? ( i'm not sure but it may be...so forget any impartiality from him )
(it's like if i was throwing you as evidences the speechs of Goebbels,for instance !)
By the way ,wasn't he jew ? ( i'm not sure but it may be...so forget any impartiality from him )
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David Thompson
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Ostuf Charlemagne -- If you've got fascist-era cartoons that you think are on-topic and of historical interest, by all means post them.
You said of Shirer:
You said of Shirer:
I don't know whether Shirer was or wasn't Jewish, but I'm hoping you're not another one of our posters who go into a trance just thinking about Jews, and who spontaneously raise the subject even when it hasn't been mentioned. The H&WC section already has an exportable surplus of the type. It makes me keep thinking that the "Madagascar plan" ought to be revived for their personal benefit."By the way ,wasn't he jew ? ( i'm not sure but it may be...so forget any impartiality from him )"
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Oleg Grigoryev
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facts? Panzermahn asserted that reports I used (in case you had not notice I started this thread) serve some kind of propaganda purpose. He did not show anything to support this theory of his and thus he wasted bandwidth with unsupported allegation which is rather common of him. There is no insult –only mere statement of state of affairs. But hey if you or Panzermanh can reasonably explain to me how and why Marshal Konev was propagating Marshal Stalin - I am all ears. So the whole “control yourself” thing is misaddressed. You should direct it to your new-found protégé.Oleg : You are recurring to insults against Panzermahn,instead of facts..
Control yourself,man...(the purpose of a forum is to exchange toughts and facts and theories....if everybody think the same way,this forum will become boring soon.)
nann Germans were far more efficient in that regard. But if you want to start one of them innumerous “body counts” on another thread - go ahead. Whatever atrocities Soviets committed against Germans – they were never matter of Governmental policy , unlike German ones.If we compare who committed more atrocities, the soviets may lead the top 10