Czech crimes?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Post Reply
User avatar
witness
Member
Posts: 2279
Joined: 21 Sep 2002, 01:39
Location: North

#46

Post by witness » 20 Sep 2003, 14:05

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:I have the books of Shirer..... a bit biased against III Reich!!!
Are you claimimg an absolute objectivity then ? Seems like you are quite biased towards the Third Reich , are not you ?
So a little bit of reality check from another side would not be too detrimental ,I guess.
(it's like if i was throwing you as evidences the speechs of Goebbels,for instance !)
Not quite . Shirer supports his arguments by the thorough research and facts as opposite to Dr Goebbels whose speeches were mostly expression of nothing else but his wishful thinking.
By the way ,wasn't he jew ?
I could not care less.
( i'm not sure but it may be...so forget any impartiality from him )
Yeah ? In another thread you bragged about having an uncle who served in Waffen SS. So by your logic no impartiality can be expected from you either..
BTW I am still waiting for the proof of your assertion that
"the sudeten were more mistreated by the Benes administration than the czechs by the Heydrich administration" :)

Ostuf Charlemagne
Member
Posts: 1014
Joined: 18 Dec 2002, 13:33
Location: Honduras

#47

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 21 Sep 2003, 05:04

Don't get me wrong,Thompson,i was just doubting of Shirer objectivity,since i don't considere him a real (impartial) journalist but an agent of Germany's ennemies ,for whatever reason he may have ,no more ,no less !


David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23724
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

#48

Post by David Thompson » 22 Sep 2003, 05:20

The posts on the activities of the Einsatzgruppen in the USSR now have a thread of their own, "Einsatzgruppe murders and German policy," at:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=32219

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9002
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

#49

Post by michael mills » 22 Sep 2003, 07:23

Here is some interesting background to the events in Prague at the time of the entry of the Red Army in May 1945. It is drawn from the Introduction to the book "Memoirs of Dr Eduard Benes", pp. vi-vii.
Actrually, of course, the Red Army never rescued Prague. It simply arrived the day after the last German forces had been overpowered by a detachment of the army of General Vlasov, the Russian commander who went over to the Germans after his capture and recruited several divisions for them from among his compatriots. Some of the Vlasov troops were stationed near Prague when the citizens of the captial rose up against the Germans on May 5th, 1945, and they by changing sides again even at the last moment to avert their inevitable punishment. So they threw themselves into the fighting on the side of the Czechs and by May 8th German resistance had ended. Marshal Koniev's troops reached Prague on the following day when the fighting was over. But it is their entry into the capital which the Czechs and Slovaks are now forced to commemorate regardless of the fact that if the independence of Czechoslovakia really dates only from the end of the second World War, every prior international act, including the country's treaty of alliance with the USSR in 1943, has no validity. It may be added that nearly all the actual leaders of the Prague rising were not Communist but supporters of President Benes. They have either been executed like General Kutlwasr, who directed it, or imprisoned or have had to flee the country in order to save their lives.
The above raises the question of who actually committed the atrocities against German soldiers and civilians in Prague. If the perpetrators were adherents of Benes, that might explain why the Soviet authorities were so willing to record the fact that the atrocities had taken place; they may have wished to have material to use against Benes at some future time.

User avatar
Oleg Grigoryev
Member
Posts: 5051
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:06
Location: Russia

#50

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 22 Sep 2003, 08:22

michael mills wrote:Here is some interesting background to the events in Prague at the time of the entry of the Red Army in May 1945. It is drawn from the Introduction to the book "Memoirs of Dr Eduard Benes", pp. vi-vii.
Actrually, of course, the Red Army never rescued Prague. It simply arrived the day after the last German forces had been overpowered by a detachment of the army of General Vlasov, the Russian commander who went over to the Germans after his capture and recruited several divisions for them from among his compatriots. Some of the Vlasov troops were stationed near Prague when the citizens of the captial rose up against the Germans on May 5th, 1945, and they by changing sides again even at the last moment to avert their inevitable punishment. So they threw themselves into the fighting on the side of the Czechs and by May 8th German resistance had ended. Marshal Koniev's troops reached Prague on the following day when the fighting was over. But it is their entry into the capital which the Czechs and Slovaks are now forced to commemorate regardless of the fact that if the independence of Czechoslovakia really dates only from the end of the second World War, every prior international act, including the country's treaty of alliance with the USSR in 1943, has no validity. It may be added that nearly all the actual leaders of the Prague rising were not Communist but supporters of President Benes. They have either been executed like General Kutlwasr, who directed it, or imprisoned or have had to flee the country in order to save their lives.
The above raises the question of who actually committed the atrocities against German soldiers and civilians in Prague. If the perpetrators were adherents of Benes, that might explain why the Soviet authorities were so willing to record the fact that the atrocities had taken place; they may have wished to have material to use against Benes at some future time.
You make it sound like Soviets did not record or prosecute attrocities commited by their soldiers? Am I correct in my assumption? If so -why do you care to do that, considreing the fact that you are well aware that was not the case.

User avatar
Glynwed
Member
Posts: 590
Joined: 28 Aug 2003, 12:43
Location: Czech Republic

Re: Czhech crimes?

#51

Post by Glynwed » 22 Sep 2003, 09:45

oleg wrote:I found several fragmentary references in Soviet documents that deal with cruelties of Prague populations toward Germans.
From the Report by Commander of 1st Ukrainian Front to the Supreme Commander in regards to situation in Prague – May 12th 1945.
… Multiple acts of cruelty towards Germans – civilians and POWs are noted. I took immediate measures to provided for speedy evacuation of POWs from Prague…
Signed Konev.

From the Report by the Member of the military council of the 4th Guards Tank Army to the Member of the military Council of the 1st Ukrainian Front –in regards to political moods of Czechoslovakian population and its feelings and actions towards Red Army June 4th 1945.
Population of Pargue helped us a great deal in business of clearing the streets from German Panzerfaust-armed soldiers and German tommy-gunners. They were catching Germans in attics and sewers, and executing them at the spot by different means –up to burning several SS personal, who refused to surrender, at the stake…
Signed: Major-General Gusev.
Lets start from begining. The fact is, that after the Red Army entered the city 8.May 1945, many czech citizen started search object for their revenge. I saw some photograps – woman with cut hair, people with swastika on their backs, beaten soldiers of Wehrmacht and SS. But there is no any mention about one thing – from 5. to 8.May in streets of Prag take fierce battle between Pragues citizens and occupation germans forces – mainly from SS, SD and gestapo. On both sides was used acts of brutality, on german side there was execute many civilians. After end of this fights in Prague became say abouth the same situation like in Paris for example. This acts of brutality from our today point of view we can only commit – including me. But in ewery nations in every period we can find persons which we can call criminal (Czech, Deutsch, Polish, France, Russian,…). It has nothing to do with nationality.

It´s truth, that after the war there was suddently to much „partyzans“, but in fact thay was only bandits. On the other hand, there was some groups of regular resistance, mainly supported from England.

Abouth approach to czech by germans – yes, we have similar the same rights like germans – for example: if anybody will listen enemy radio, he will be shoot with his family, if anybody help to enemy, he will be shoot with his family, if somebody don’t report about hostile leaflet, he will be shoot with his family (often used by provocaters), if somebody hide out the Jew, he will be shoot with his family, etc. etc…. That´s is the german law, you are still talking abouth.

If somebody talking abouth poor sudeten germans tormented by Beneš and about happy czechs under Heydrich, it´s absolutely pipe-dream nonsense.

User avatar
Oleg Grigoryev
Member
Posts: 5051
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:06
Location: Russia

#52

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 22 Sep 2003, 09:53

Glynwed, just to make sure that there is no misunderstanding – I posted these not in order to point finger “aha look at them Bad Czechs”, but strictly for reference.

User avatar
Glynwed
Member
Posts: 590
Joined: 28 Aug 2003, 12:43
Location: Czech Republic

to Oleg

#53

Post by Glynwed » 22 Sep 2003, 10:00

I hope there is nothing insulting you in my article. If so, accept my apology.

User avatar
Oleg Grigoryev
Member
Posts: 5051
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:06
Location: Russia

Re: to Oleg

#54

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 22 Sep 2003, 10:03

Glynwed wrote:I hope there is nothing insulting you in my article. If so, accept my apology.
no ther is nothing:) I just want to clera out where I stand on this issue:)

User avatar
Glynwed
Member
Posts: 590
Joined: 28 Aug 2003, 12:43
Location: Czech Republic

#55

Post by Glynwed » 22 Sep 2003, 13:43

Some Heydrichs documents:

To defend interests of Reich I declare with efficiency from 28.9. 1941 from 12:00 on area of Protectorate Bohemia-Moravia civilian outstanding status. Every actions, which disturb public order, economic life or industrial peace, as well as illegal receive fire arms, explosive or ammunition, are subjected to martial law. It also concern all meetings in closed rooms as well as on public streets. Against verdict passed by martial court is not appeal. Verdicts are to be dispensed immediately by shoot or hanging.

Signed: Heydrich


--------------------------------------------------------------------

Secred. To Mr. Reichs chief Bormann. Fuhrers HQ.
Dear member of party Bormann! I inform you, as addition to my teleprint report number 11/41 from 28.9. 1941, that on 22:00 in Reichs broadcaster news „Bohemia“ will be proclaim this judgment of death, which will be billing tomorrow:

First: For preparation treason the martial court in Prague judge Army general Josef Bílý and Division general Hugo Vojta, both outside of active servis, to death. Besides their property was confiscate.

Second: For sabotage the martial court in Brno judge Alois Trneèka from Rousínov and Rudolf Pospíšil from Drnovic to death.

Third: For illegal receive of fire arms the martial court in Prague judge Ladislav Kumzák and Václav Franc from Prague to death.

Judgements were undertake today by shoot. Please, inform Fuhrer abouth it.

Heydrich

User avatar
Glynwed
Member
Posts: 590
Joined: 28 Aug 2003, 12:43
Location: Czech Republic

#56

Post by Glynwed » 22 Sep 2003, 16:55

Je to moc zajimave jestli je to pravda.
S uprimnym pozdravem
Luca[/quote]

http://www.pamatnik-terezin.cz

Click on english flag - and know the truth. :|

alsaco
Member
Posts: 353
Joined: 17 Apr 2002, 16:50
Location: France, Paris

#57

Post by alsaco » 22 Sep 2003, 23:46

Glynwed has clearly explained how benevolent and friedly the german rules were in the protectorate.
Mills has clearly cited the framework of the occupation. If any czech did not obey these rules, he was considered an enemy, and punished accordingly, he and all his family.
Moreover if he was accused of black marked, the same punition did apply. What was left of tchecoslovakia, Böhmen und Mähren was mostly peasants, all industries were in Sudetenland, or under direct german control, in Pilsen, Brno, or Prag. Peasants who did furnish a large part of the food needed in nearby german gaùs, Sachsen, Thüringen and Norf-Bayern, industrial mountainous districts. If the official contigents fixed by the german administration were not met, the accusation of black market was immediate.
You can see how quiet the life could be, particularly if you add that all administration was in the hand of revengeful sudeten or leftovers using their volksdeùtshtùm to oppress the slavic race

Mr Mills tries to prove the quality of czech life by the level of food rations. May I call his attention on the fact that this level can be higher for germans than for czechs and that he has no proof that all people had access to rationing cards. In France, the rule for rationing cards excluded normally the farmers and agricultural workers, having access directly to agricultural products produced locally. Naturally, these rules were rapidly fooled, the distribution being left to french administration, but for the czechs, distribution was in the hands of sudeten.
In Germany, rural villages had two types of coupons, peasants and non-peasants, in Baden and Württenberg at least. When the french arrived, agricultural workers were very surprised to learn that they had access to meat coupons.

Access to the goods, even if you have the coupons, is also a problem. If shops open at 8.00, but access his autorized only at 10.00 for Czechs, you can be sure there is no goods left for them. This is the way the germans practised with the jews, in german towns, like Dresden, in the years 1938-41, before the deportation to Lithuania.

Rations is therefore not sufficient as measure of comfort. Permanent menaces on your life and your family is on the contrary a real measure of discomfort.

Nobody can negate the czech atrocities in numerous towns in 1945-1946, against german troops, refugees and volksdeùtsche. But to link these with Benes treatment of the Sudeten before 1938 does not make sense.
The Sudeten were treated as a minority, but on their own will. They had the rights of czechs, and had even their own political parties, including a nazi one.
The czech atrocities were in fact a revenge. Racial revenge more than based on particular mistreatment. But how had introduced the concept of dominent race. It was only normal that some czechs would try to see how one could feel being in turn the one having the gun.

Luca
Member
Posts: 916
Joined: 21 Jul 2002, 12:58
Location: Italia

#58

Post by Luca » 23 Sep 2003, 00:53

Glynwed wrote:Je to moc zajimave jestli je to pravda.
S uprimnym pozdravem
Luca
http://www.pamatnik-terezin.cz

Click on english flag - and know the truth. :|[/quote]


If you permit i stay in czech pages.
Very happy for know that finally the site is born, long time ago i have only the personal e mail of the curator of all Terezin activityes.
Can now i know what truth you want show me?
Please, write the link of the exact page/s of what you want show me.
Thank You.
Luca
Ps = the strange show that was possible see in the jail beetween the red flag jail and the normal jail used for art esposition is again there?
My opinion during my first trip in the mala pevnost,long time ago, was that was better close it, or in alternativity no show the two photos in connection with the item that was show in the jail, photos that was possible see in the vitrine of the exposition where was locate the SS big barrak.
Sorry for the request, for long years i see this jail open, but is a couple of years that i no return in the mala pevnost during my usually trips in the area, so i dont know what new happened.
If i can permit the question..where you live? Maybe we can drink some beers together in the short future.

User avatar
witness
Member
Posts: 2279
Joined: 21 Sep 2002, 01:39
Location: North

#59

Post by witness » 23 Sep 2003, 03:32

On the Nazi attitude to Czechs..
A petty segment of Europe is harassing the human race...
The miserable pygmy race [the Czechs ] is oppressing a cultured people ,and behind is Moscow and the eternal mask of the Jew devil .
( Goering at the Nuremberg Party Rally ,September 10 1938 )

User avatar
Glynwed
Member
Posts: 590
Joined: 28 Aug 2003, 12:43
Location: Czech Republic

#60

Post by Glynwed » 23 Sep 2003, 09:06

to Luca: From your ask "It´s interisting if it´s truth" I recognize your interest in this thing, but don´t recognize the deep of your knowledge abouth Terezín.....this "Known the truth" was mainly directed to every member of this site....to know, that if somebody read abouth Terezin like abouth "vitrine", it´s little far away from real state of things.
I´m living in Hradec Králové, some 100 km west from Prague. Your czech is pretty good. Your parents were czech?

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”