War crimes against Estonian civilians

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
Yan-17
Member
Posts: 3
Joined: 02 Aug 2002 16:09
Location: Blainville - P.Q.

Post by Yan-17 » 02 Aug 2002 23:45

IT IS THE UNDENIABLE RIGHT OF THE ESTONIANS TO GLORIFY THEIR HEROES; TO GLORIFY PEOPLES AND MOMENTS OF THEIR HISTORY WHO, FOR THEIR NATION, SEEMS IMPORTANT FOR THEIR NATIONAL INTERESTS!

Germany never organized massive mass repression against people under their military yoke over Eastern Europe as did the Soviets; their's an important and undeniable fact too. Oh, probably you'll say against the Jews; but, it rest to proove it ... The fact is that Estonia fight for her soveraingty beside the Germans, againts the terribly repressive and non-human communist system of Soviet Union. Else today, Russians are polluting Estonia !!! 80% of the incredible sidatic population of Estonia is represented by the Russians of the eastern part of the country!!! :P

I agree with that action. Jews are elevating monuments for them ... Estonians have the right to rise monuments for their real heroes !

Regards.

Caldric
Member
Posts: 8077
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:50
Location: Anchorage, Alaska

Post by Caldric » 03 Aug 2002 00:32

Germany never organized massive mass repression against people under their military yoke over Eastern Europe as did the Soviets; their's an important and undeniable fact too.
What have you been reading? For one just read Ian Kershaw book Nemesis, go to the part about Ethnic Cleaning in Poland. After that look up Jews in Ukraine etc.

Or the Jews rounded up in all Eastern Countries.

Undeniable? Only thing undeniable is German barbarism on the Eastern Front. Including its allies.

Ovidius
Member
Posts: 1414
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 19:04
Location: Romania

Post by Ovidius » 03 Aug 2002 00:51

Caldric wrote:Undeniable? Only thing undeniable is German barbarism on the Eastern Front. Including its allies.
This would fit more in the Holocaust & Warcrimes section...

See here:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... php?t=2093

~Regards,

Ovidius

PS Follow also the links you find there :D

Caldric
Member
Posts: 8077
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:50
Location: Anchorage, Alaska

Post by Caldric » 03 Aug 2002 01:31

Well move it there. Or don't bring up such silliness as Germany never committed mass repression.....


:roll:

Lobscouse
Member
Posts: 1627
Joined: 01 May 2002 07:01
Location: Victoria, Canada

Estonian monument

Post by Lobscouse » 06 Aug 2002 00:30

Recently read of an Estonian offering US$20,000 for the capture and conviction of any ex-NKVD who had operated in Estonian. Sort of a reverse Wiesenthal. Saw it on the following: http://www.fpp.co.uk/BoD/origins/Estonia1.html

Ovidius
Member
Posts: 1414
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 19:04
Location: Romania

Post by Ovidius » 08 Aug 2002 09:42

houndie wrote:You're right about one thing - there wasn't a good Waffen-SS vs. bad Allgemeine SS, but what I meant is that while Allgemeine seems to be created to "do the Holocaust" (continue with the Final Solution), Waffen-SS was created for frontal warfare.

...................................

Allgemeine had sure murderers (in the idea that the "radical new theory" is just a theory) - correct me, if I'm wrong, but they were the ones, who were dealing out the Final Solution.
You're doing just like Khrushchev: throw the guilt on "someone" to save the system.

The Allgemeine SS, although scorned by all those who wished to clear the Waffen SS of guilt, had also other very useful jobs to do, alongside the sleazy and mundane job of rounding up Jews and sending them to gas. One of those very useful jobs being that it maintained order, even among the firestorms of bombings.

~Ovidius

AndyW
Member
Posts: 120
Joined: 24 Mar 2002 19:37
Location: Bavaria

Post by AndyW » 08 Aug 2002 11:22

houndie wrote: Of course nothing is flawless, but Waffen-SS is also not without any division, that didn't commit any known crimes, SS-Wiking for instance and the second good example should be Eesti Leegion (the 20.-th SS division). Of course there are more examples, but I haven't really thought about the different divisions and therefore, don't know them.
You should get an overall picture about the SS before making wrong assesments on the entire Waffen-SS, based on only two volunteer Waffen-SS-Divisions.
You're right about one thing - there wasn't a good Waffen-SS vs. bad Allgemeine SS, but what I meant is that while Allgemeine seems to be created to "do the Holocaust" (continue with the Final Solution), Waffen-SS was created for frontal warfare.
Wrong.
Waffen-SS was the armed branch of the SS; her purpose was to be a dedicated Nazi state police troop for special purposes. See Hitler's and Himmlers orders regarding the etablishment of the Waffen-SS (Verfügungstruppe)
Volunteer divisions with no atrocity, as was the Leegion, should not be considered "bad"
Wrong.

Excerpt from the "Report of the Estonian International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity":

"The Commission's researchers have studied a number of the records of post-war Soviet era trials, in an effort to determine the location and activities of specific Estonian military units and police battalions at various times. Some of this material could be matched against the information provided in the book "Eesti Vabadusvõitlejad" ("Estonian Freedom Fighters"). Information was also obtained from individuals, and from memoirs. From this research, the Commission concludes that the Estonian Legion and a number of Estonian police battalions were actively involved in the rounding up and shooting of Jews in at least one town in Belarus (Novogrudok); in guard duties in at least four towns in Poland (Lodz, Przemysl, Rzeszow, and Tarnopol); in guard duties at a number of camps in Estonia and elsewhere; and in the deportation to Germany of an unknown number of civilians from Belarus and Poland."


full coverage: http://www.historycommission.ee/temp/conclusions.htm

The Estonian Legion became the later Estonian Brigade, which became, together with members of estonian 1st Police-Rgt , the 20th SS-Div.

Allgemeine had sure murderers (...) - correct me, if I'm wrong, but they were the ones, who were dealing out the Final Solution. Waffen-SS were soldiers, thus: could as much be war criminals as any other american or english (I thought Russian wouldn't be the right word here) soldiers.
30% of Einsatzgruppe A were Waffen-SS men. Einsatzgruppe A executed 218,050 people until Feb. 2, 1942.

Until 1942, Waffen-SS was responsible for all Concentration Camps. In 1945, some 45,000 W-SS men were Concentration Camp guards. Many KZ Commanders were Officers of the Waffen-SS.


[qoute]
They had volunteers, but most seem to think most of the people joined up because they believed in Nazi ideology. I am taking the risk of saying most joined up to fight the "red scourge".[/quote]

Germans had no reason to join SS to fight the Reds. They could join the Wehrmacht instead. For volunteers from other countries, I tend to agree that the anti-soviet-motive was stronger than anti-semitism, even though they swore an holy oath of unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler and took part in the Nazi extermination policy.

Cheers,

Reigo
Member
Posts: 671
Joined: 04 Jun 2002 10:20
Location: Estonia

Post by Reigo » 08 Aug 2002 14:04

Excerpt from the "Report of the Estonian International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity":
"The Commission's researchers have studied a number of the records of post-war Soviet era trials, in an effort to determine the location and activities of specific Estonian military units and police battalions at various times. Some of this material could be matched against the information provided in the book "Eesti Vabadusvõitlejad" ("Estonian Freedom Fighters"). Information was also obtained from individuals, and from memoirs. From this research, the Commission concludes that the Estonian Legion and a number of Estonian police battalions were actively involved in the rounding up and shooting of Jews in at least one town in Belarus (Novogrudok); in guard duties in at least four towns in Poland (Lodz, Przemysl, Rzeszow, and Tarnopol); in guard duties at a number of camps in Estonia and elsewhere; and in the deportation to Germany of an unknown number of civilians from Belarus and Poland."
This commission has proved itself as a BS commission already (look the thread "Zuroff's latest" in "Warcrimes and Holocaust").

Estonian Legion was not in Novogrudok, Lodz, Przemysl, Rzeszow and Tarnopol. It didn't have guard duties at a number of camps and elsewhere. It didn't participate in deportations. Period. Only possible atrocities can maybe related with the anti-partisan operation "Heinrich" in Belarus at the beginning of November 1943. The Brigade participated in this operation. But nothing is proved.

And I especially love this sentence by the commission:
The evidence for the participation of the 36th Police Battalion in the liquidation of the ghetto in Novogrudok is much clearer and compelling. In view of the repeated use of the language used to disguise this crime ("fighting against partisans"), the Commission believes that at least a portion of the activity of the Estonian police battalions constituted, or contributed to, crimes against humanity or genocide.
Note that:
...the Commission Believes...
Well, Gentlemen, thank you for a lot of BS, take your believes and...
is my suggestion for them.

The head of the commission Max Jakobson, has actually now admitted that they didn't have direct evidence about 36th Police Battalion.

Obviously they tried so hard to present at least one mass-murder unit, otherwise "Europe and Trans-Atlantic community" will not be pleased. A fiasco is this report, when considering Zuroff's attacks now which are based on this.

JariL
Member
Posts: 425
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 08:45
Location: Finland

Post by JariL » 10 Sep 2003 08:47

<Germany never organized massive mass repression against people <under their military yoke over Eastern Europe as did the Soviets; their's <an important and undeniable fact too. Oh, probably you'll say against <the Jews; but, it rest to proove it ... The fact is that Estonia fight for her <soveraingty beside the Germans, againts the terribly repressive and <non-human communist system of Soviet Union

Hi,

Estonia did not fight for its soverignity with the Germans. Germans did not allow that to happen, on the contrary German authorities made their best to suppress Estonian nationalism. When Estonian troops were finally formed, nationalistic feelings were a problem to the Germans not an asset.

Estonians got to fight for their country first when the siege of Leningrad had been broken and the Red Army started it's drive to the west. Then the Estonian units tried to keep the Soviets out and regain the independence of Estonia. From German point of view they were fighting a rear guard action that helped Army Group North to pull out of Estonia. At that point Germans did not care any more what the motivation of the Estonian soldiers was.

Do not forget that the approximately 3.500 Estonian soldiers who fought in Finland during the Continuation War left Estonia during the German occupation. They could have joined the German forces but decided instead to join the Finnish army. Finland also provided them with what they wanted: military training that would have enabled Estonians to rebuild their army in independent Estonia. All this had to be done quietly in order to prevent a German reaction. As it was Germany was certainly aware of the Estonians and the training their received but the protests were not very loud in order not to put strain to the relationship with Finland.

In general German rule of Estonia was no better than the Russian rule. Both Soviet Union and Hitlers Germany persecuted their political opponents and killed many of them. Definition of political enemy was very loose in both cases. Soviet occupation is the one Estonians remeber today because it lasted much longer and took a heavier toll in number of dead and deported. But German occupation was not a Wiener valse either. A Finnish officer who interviewed many of the Estonian volunteers came to the following conclusion in his report "same shit in different wrappings" meaning the Soviet and German occupation of Estonia.

Regards,

Jari

Ostuf Charlemagne
Member
Posts: 1014
Joined: 18 Dec 2002 12:33
Location: Honduras

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 15 Sep 2003 00:46

To Gregory : Maybe because it wasn't the germans who deported hundreds of thousands estonians within the Gulag camps....

To Quist : Well ,the fact is that they remained ounder soviet dictature after the war...in my mind it was a lot worse. And i have a lithuanian friend who was an unterscharfuehrer within the Wiking division.He resisted to the soviets in the forrests since 1940 ,when his country was occuped by the russians,before the germans came (as liberators,by the way...) ,he seems to have the same view on this issue.

Ostuf Charlemagne
Member
Posts: 1014
Joined: 18 Dec 2002 12:33
Location: Honduras

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 15 Sep 2003 00:50

So Simon Wiesenthal knows about that ......

By the Devil !!!
Por la Gloria de Coton !!! (as says the spanish gypsies......)
Que le grand Crik me croque !!! ( capt. Haddock dixit ....)

It sounds as if : '' I gone tell my mom...''

question : Is Mr. Wiesenthal the President of Estonia ??

Gregory Deych
Member
Posts: 120
Joined: 08 Aug 2003 06:21
Location: US

Post by Gregory Deych » 15 Sep 2003 22:01

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:To Gregory : Maybe because it wasn't the germans who deported hundreds of thousands estonians within the Gulag camps....
Yes, unlike Soviets who sent their prisoners to Gulag camps, Germans killed them right on the spot. How is this better?

And regarding your lithuanian SS friend - no matter what he "thought", he was fighting for German Protectorate of Estonia, where Estonians would've been 2nd class citizens at best.

Ostuf Charlemagne
Member
Posts: 1014
Joined: 18 Dec 2002 12:33
Location: Honduras

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 16 Sep 2003 01:29

Obviously no one in your family had been murdered by the NKVD......

Gregory Deych
Member
Posts: 120
Joined: 08 Aug 2003 06:21
Location: US

Post by Gregory Deych » 16 Sep 2003 02:17

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Obviously no one in your family had been murdered by the NKVD......
Obviously, no one in your family had been murdered by Nazis.

Ostuf Charlemagne
Member
Posts: 1014
Joined: 18 Dec 2002 12:33
Location: Honduras

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 16 Sep 2003 02:22

Of course not ! My uncle was in the Waffen- SS ! (no kidding ) :D :D :D

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”