War crimes against Estonian civilians

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Ostuf Charlemagne
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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 16 Sep 2003 02:24

By the way,since no one of my family had been murdered by Nazis ,this is a scientific evidence that the Nazis were not murderers ! :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Gregory Deych
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Post by Gregory Deych » 16 Sep 2003 02:29

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Of course not ! My uncle was in the Waffen- SS ! (no kidding ) :D :D :D
Did he survive the war?

Ostuf Charlemagne
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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 16 Sep 2003 04:50

No. Killed in action in 1945.

Gregory Deych
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Re: monument

Post by Gregory Deych » 16 Sep 2003 22:08

Peeter wrote: And to everybody who says that Estonians were stupidly on the wrong side and Germans would`nt give us independence back- yes, but Stalin was a butcher. Germans weren`t. Not here.
So when Germans killed 1000 Estonian Jews, that was not butchery?

Ostuf Charlemagne
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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 17 Sep 2003 02:44

My dear Gregory,it's maybe time to ounderstand that the jews are not the alpha and omega of the world,neither of the WW2 !

What about the hundreds thousands real estonians,murdered,butchered or deported by the soviets since 1940 !!! ??????
Estonians were part of the Axis and allies of Germany .

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 17 Sep 2003 04:28

Ostuf Charlemagne -- A citizen may be a Jew (or a Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Lutheran, atheist or agnostic), but he's still a citizen. One is not a more real citizen than another. Those Estonian folks who were murdered by Nazis or Soviets all share the equality of death, and of a life cut short by criminals. Probably few of those people deservd their fate. This is the tragedy of Estonian history in the period 1940-1989.

Peeter
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monument

Post by Peeter » 17 Sep 2003 16:43

It really seems to get warcrime -section here. The Jews, executed in Estonia by German authorities- definitely part of them did not deserve their faith and were killed just because they were Jews. On the other hand- there were lots of jews who served in the NKVD, were politruks in the Red Army or in the demolition battalions- they were murderers, war criminals, were trialed and shot or sent to camp.
This was not an excuse to killing people, just a note that not all victims of German politics were that innocent. NKVD killed Estonians for what they did before Soviet occupation- being an officer in the army or policeman or a member of some party was already a big crime. Or saying that Josif has a big nose...
Regards

Gregory Deych
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Re: monument

Post by Gregory Deych » 17 Sep 2003 17:43

Peeter wrote:It really seems to get warcrime -section here. The Jews, executed in Estonia by German authorities- definitely part of them did not deserve their faith and were killed just because they were Jews. On the other hand- there were lots of jews who served in the NKVD, were politruks in the Red Army or in the demolition battalions- they were murderers, war criminals, were trialed and shot or sent to camp.
This was not an excuse to killing people, just a note that not all victims of German politics were that innocent. NKVD killed Estonians for what they did before Soviet occupation- being an officer in the army or policeman or a member of some party was already a big crime. Or saying that Josif has a big nose...
Regards
The Estonians executed in Estonia by Soviet authorities - definite part of them didn't deserve it, and were killed just because they held the wrong views. On the other hand - there were a lot of Estonians who served in the SS, or worked with the Gestapo - murderers, war criminals, were trialed and shot or sent to camps. This was not an excuse to killing people, just a note that not all victims of Soviet politics were that innocent.

Kunnar Kesküla
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Re: monument

Post by Kunnar Kesküla » 17 Sep 2003 18:13

Gregory Deych wrote:
Peeter wrote:It really seems to get warcrime -section here. The Jews, executed in Estonia by German authorities- definitely part of them did not deserve their faith and were killed just because they were Jews. On the other hand- there were lots of jews who served in the NKVD, were politruks in the Red Army or in the demolition battalions- they were murderers, war criminals, were trialed and shot or sent to camp.
This was not an excuse to killing people, just a note that not all victims of German politics were that innocent. NKVD killed Estonians for what they did before Soviet occupation- being an officer in the army or policeman or a member of some party was already a big crime. Or saying that Josif has a big nose...
Regards
The Estonians executed in Estonia by Soviet authorities - definite part of them didn't deserve it, and were killed just because they held the wrong views. On the other hand - there were a lot of Estonians who served in the SS, or worked with the Gestapo - murderers, war criminals, were trialed and shot or sent to camps. This was not an excuse to killing people, just a note that not all victims of Soviet politics were that innocent.
On 1940-41, when soviets murdered a lot of estonians, which Peeter means, we have'nt any guy with SS or gestapo career. Don't loose point here. Like Peeter said, on 1940/41 soviets killed and send to camps persons for what they did before Soviet occupation. When there was still free and independent country.

Ostuf Charlemagne
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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 18 Sep 2003 03:30

Thompson,what i mean is that the estonians were surely not sensibilized by the jews since most of them had supported the soviets.....(in 1940 and after)
I don't want to start again the arguments we had about the Einsatzgruppen ,where my points were that Einsatzgryuppen were merely counter-insurgency teams,and that jewish villages were the only points where the soviets partisans (who were Red army leftover,not estonians )
may get help and food,wich provocate retelaitions by Einsatzgruppen and estonian police,rightly so !
Of course some innocents jews were gone in these actions,surely,but they were not killed because they were jews... you are free not to agree with me ,but instead to comeback with all the same arguments again and again,please go in the holocaust section to the topic einsatzgruppen where anybody will find all arguments from both side ....incluiding the one about the fabric of fake nazi atrocity pictures ,in Canada by the british intelligence,a point you never answered me really Thompson :wink:

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 18 Sep 2003 03:56

Ostuf Charlemagne -- You said:
"please go in the holocaust section to the topic einsatzgruppen where anybody will find all arguments from both side ....incluiding the one about the fabric of fake nazi atrocity pictures ,in Canada by the british intelligence,a point you never answered me really Thompson "
I didn't really answer the claim because I couldn't confirm or refute the story, and you didn't give any examples of fake Nazi atrocity pictures manufactured by British intelligence for me to work with.

You also said:
"you are free not to agree with me ,but instead to comeback with all the same arguments again and again"
My "argument" -- that a Estonian Jew is not any the less an Estonian national -- was in response to your statement:
"it's maybe time to ounderstand that the jews are not the alpha and omega of the world,neither of the WW2 ! What about the hundreds thousands real estonians,murdered,butchered or deported by the soviets since 1940 !!! ??????"


The point is that all of the people murdered by war criminals are of equal dignity. I don't know that this is really an argument. I think it's more of an outlook. That's why I value the accounts which you and Luca gave of northern Italian civilians who were murdered by communist partisans. Those people were the victims of criminals too.

Ostuf Charlemagne
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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 18 Sep 2003 05:03

Thompson,don't get me wrong,i'm not denying german war crimes,wich existed,too manies of them,btw,but i think it's not necesary to overexagerate them and that in some cases they were part of counterinsurgence ops,so, justified in one way or other, and this kind of war it's always a ''dirty'' war.....

Ostuf Charlemagne
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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 19 Sep 2003 03:40

Thompson : 1-About the fakes pictures factory,(btw,they don't fake only pics ,but also ''nazi'' documents as you will see here.....) if there is a lot of pictures i seriously doubt,there is at last two i know positively as coming from this factory,too sad i don't have them currently in any of my books ,but one is a very well known,many times published,and figures as the cover of a jewish book about the einsatzgruppen (maybe somebody may scann it ?)..
It represent a german policeman with breeches and garrison cap aiming his rifle (supposedly shooting) at a jewish woman who bears her baby in her arms. If you examine closely this pic,you will see the shadow of the policeman going to one side,and the shadow of the woman going another way.... These are obviously a ''montage'' ,two pics in one.(And most of these doubteous pics are about Einsatzgruppen).

2- And now i scann these document who reads :''Made at Toronto,by the team of eric Maschwitz ,from an idea of SOE agent John ''Ivar''Brice,brother -in-law of Walter Lippman,this fake german map was utilized by Roosevelt to appeal for the ending of the laws about neutrality''
It shows supposedly the Hitler's plans for a new South America ounder german guidance.Bolivia,Peru,Paraguay,Uruguay,and Ecuator disappeared..... Colombia and Venezuela become New spain as if gived to Franco . French Guyana expanded in size as a gift to the Vichy govt.
Peronist Argentina and pro-axis Chili enlarged as a reward.This convinced gullibles US congressmen to adopt a pro-war attitude.
(Too sad they are not any smarter today,i.e. the ''mass destruction weapons'' of Saddam Hussein)

3- Source : This doc comes from a recent article of Pierre de Villemarest .
Not a neo-nazi or a revisionnist.He was a lifelong high ranking of french intelligence,started within free french gaullist intel during the war,and he is the one who seized the archives of the Gestapo in France.Untill he retired some years ago....He is a very thoughtafter,respected man by the intel pros ,not only in France but in your own country too.He is maybe the most knowledgeable frenchman about communism and soviet intelligence.He writes for confidential newsletters where he demostrated with evidences that both the leadership of Sipo-SD in Belgium and the commandance of Buchenwald KZ were infiltrated by communists who joined the SS before the war (remember many SS provened from the SA wich had recruited lots of formers communists up to the point to be called beefsteak abteilungen -brown outside,red inside- they where in contact with NKVD one way or other,one of them at top level was Gestapo-Mueller himself ,who died in Moscu being a KGB adviser !!!)
The last commander of Buchenwald was a communist too,no small wonder he let french kapo Marcel Paul (french communist leader after the war as well as congressman too) to decide who had to be sent to Dora (the REAL death's camp) where he sent dozens of french army officers members of the conservative branch of the resistance,where they died...
In the 50's,Marcel Paul was publicly challenged about that by a Dora survivor in the french congress,a heck of a scandal !
- And that is part of the strange facts i know well because of the many vets from both sides i knew ( i will write about that maybe someday)....part of the reasons i don't believe a lot of things about WW2...........things that people believe blindly because they never knew -and never will- what happened behind the curtains and who's was who in most countries.(That's off topic,sorry but i disgress)
So this document was published in a monthly newsletter of former (?) intelligence professionals,so you will excuse me not to reveal the tittle,but it was obviously published.

4-Your google research about Mschwitz showed him as a singer.Good cover.And the evidence that even today the truth is hidding.Another reason i don't believe a lot of ''things''.

5- And a last observance: You said ''a citizen is a citizen''...like the moslems ,arabians or whatever,members of the Towers Al Quaida commando who had french,german or british citizenship.....like many US citizens ,moslems or from arabian descendence who were never watched by the FBI because of political correctness (this western disease...) not even when they registered (so many moslems at once !) in private flight schools.Obviously the estonian police and Schuma weren't comitting the same mistake with their jewish citizens !

The good thing about our discussion is both you and me ,we are well documented....so your turn,my dear Thompson,please answer point by point.

Ostuf Charlemagne
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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 19 Sep 2003 03:42

Here the document :
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Tapani K.
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Post by Tapani K. » 19 Sep 2003 07:11

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote: Einsatzgryuppen were merely counter-insurgency teams,and that jewish villages were the only points where the soviets partisans (who were Red army leftover,not estonians )
may get help and food,wich provocate retelaitions by Einsatzgruppen and estonian police,rightly so !
If the discussion is still about Estonia I would like to point out that there was no red partisan movement in Estonia due to total lack of local support. Also, there were no Jewish villages; the majority of Jewish Estonians were city-dwellers. It may also be assumed that the majority of those Jews who had supported the Soviet regime would have fled Estonia with the retreating Soviet Army and therefore the remaining Jews would have been mostly innocent of supporting the Reds.

In the light of the above, I find it very hard to find any crime that would have justified the killing of Estonian Jews ( or any people, without a fair trial).


regards,
Tapani K.

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