Charlemagne soldiers executed at Bad Reichenhall

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Ostuf Charlemagne
Member
Posts: 1014
Joined: 18 Dec 2002 12:33
Location: Honduras

Charlemagne soldiers executed at Bad Reichenhall

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 20 Sep 2003 04:03

I hesitate as if to post in foreign volunteers or war crimes section...
anyway ,here it goes :At the beginning of May 1945, 13 french soldiers of the Charlemagne div.were convalescent in a german hospital in the west...they were captured by US troops and sent to the Gebirgsjaeger barracks of Bad-Reichenhall along with others germans POWs.Then they learned that the POW camp was to be seized by french gaullist troops ,so the 13 men decided to escape...
(By the way,one of them was not SS but Wehrmacht:2nd lieutenant Paul Briffaut who was LVF and being wounded was already in the hospital when the LVF melted within the SS Charlemagne.For this reason he was not versed within the SS...as a vichyst french army ROTC aspirant,he joined the LVF when the Vichy army was dissolved in 1942)
Two others officers were in this group:Obersturmfuehrer Robert Doffat and untersturmfuehrer Serge Krotoff...Krotoff was a veteran of the 8th SS french sturmbrigade and had been wounded at the Mokre battle in Ukrainia,in July 44.
May 6th 1945: The 13 frenchmen were captured by troops of 4th Co.Regiment of Tchad,2nd free french armoured division.(This company ,ounder command of lieutenant Ferrano,was formed with communist spaniards who fled Franco's Spain after the civil war and formed the hardcore of the terrorist ''resistance'' in southwest France in 1944)
The commander of the division ,general Leclerc,came to see the prisonners.His first decision was to secretly remove one the SS men who was the son of a free french high officer friend of him...This young SS trooper was put later in a plane and clandestinely sent back to his father..
Then Leclerc invectived the prisonners telling them they were traitors because they were wearing a foreign uniform,the german one.The SS answered: ''Sir,you too wear a foreign uniform,the american one!''
(the 2nd free french armoured division was uniformed and equiped by the USA..)..... Then Leclerc went pissed of and ordered the executions of the prisonners -without trial or court martial- because they were ''arrogant''.
The prisonners were shot at a place know as Karlstein in the afternoon of May 8th 1945,the very day the war was over !
Ounder preissure of the two catholic chaplains of the division ,fathers Fouquet and Maxime Giaume,general Leclerc conceded a religious assistance...
Were presents: General Leclerc,Major Lebec (division's G-2),Fathers Fouquet and Giaume,2nd lieutenant Cortadellas and lieutenant Ferrano whose 4th Co.furnished the firing squad.The young lieutenant who commanded this squad was astonished to have to do that and wanted to disobey the order but he had no choice....at last he talked with respect to the prisonners...They were shot 4 by 4,all denied to be shot at the back as Leclerc initially ordered,and the firing squad commander authorized them to be shot standing in front.They denied a bandage on the eyes and all shouted ''Vive la France''.Leclerc ordered the corpses to be let unburied.They were buried by US troops 3 days later....
After the war,major Lebec referred to this story as a ''dirty affair''...
This killing was know thanks to Father Giaume who tried to find and advise the families of the SS after the war....
Of those 13 prisonners,12 were shot and un unknown spared....In 1948,during a flight in Algeria,the plane of general Leclerc crashed in the desert.Some rumors says it was sabotaged on De Gaulle's orders...true or not,fact is the flight registered a total of 12 men,incluiding Leclerc,but the corpse of a 13th men,unknown,was found inside and never explained.........a winkle of Destiny.
THE PICTURES : (hoping they will go trough!)

in the first one,we see general Leclerc with a canne,when he tell the SS they are wearing a foreign uniform and the SS answered ''you too''.
N.1,at the end of 1st file,with a garrison cap,LVF leutnant Paul Briffaut.
N.2 with garrison cap,trying to look at the photographer,untersturmfuehrer Krotoff,
N.3 end of 2nd file,(we can only see his neck and ''Schulterklappen'' rank,obersturmfuehrer Doffat.

The 2nd picture: the today grave-monument of these 12 french SS at Bad-Reichenhall cemetery where they rest (group 11,file 3,number 81-82)
the first stone plack with the iron cross and the shield of the Charlemagne div.
the second stone shows the national colours of France ,as worn by SS volunteers on the left sleeve with the french writing :''Time comes by,but remembers stays''
the third one,with a Lys flower,in german :''To the brave sons of France,who being prisonners were shot without trial in Karlstein,May 8th 1945''.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

mars
Member
Posts: 1126
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 19:50
Location: Shanghai

Post by mars » 20 Sep 2003 14:56

to understanding this, you could just imagine what American soldiers's reaction would be if some of the 9-11 hijackers were American citizen

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23121
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Post by David Thompson » 20 Sep 2003 14:57

Ostuf Charlemagne -- Thanks for posting the additional information on this incident. For readers who may be interested in previous discussions of this subject, see:

General LeClerc and French Volunteers
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17745

SS French Troops Killed by Free French Forces
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2282

George Lepre
Host - Foreign volunteers section
Posts: 723
Joined: 13 Aug 2002 21:39
Location: United States

Post by George Lepre » 20 Sep 2003 15:08

Hello!

I too have read about these men. It is said that the Americans posted a cross with the names of the dead on it when they buried the corpses, but that it disappeared soon after. Thus the names of several of the dead men are unknown.

Believe it or not, I believe that this mystery can be easily solved. The identities of the dead men can be found. The place to look is in the records generated by the 2e Bureau (the intelligence section) of the 2e DB from May 1945. These papers are located in the SHAT at Chateau Vincennes outside of Paris. I have been there to research other French units (Goums Marocains) and found that French army units kept excellent records. Moreover, records from May 1945 are likely to be present in their entirety, unlike those of more chaotic periods like 1940. In the case of the Goums Marocains, the records were virtually complete down to company level. Those of the 2e DB should be similar, particularly with the intelligence section. I should add that even within the Goums' operational records are several German POW rosters.

The information is there; all one has to do is look.

Best regards,

George Lepre

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23121
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Post by David Thompson » 20 Sep 2003 15:56

George -- Thanks for the very helpful information.

Ostuf Charlemagne
Member
Posts: 1014
Joined: 18 Dec 2002 12:33
Location: Honduras

Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 21 Sep 2003 03:58

Thanks a lot ,George !

Mars : The Charlemagne volunteers were uniformed soldiers (like the foreigners of the french foreign legion) fighting communism at the Eastern Front with the authorization of the legal french government (at this time,the Vichy one ) , not terrorists murdering civilians in peacetime !

User avatar
R.M. Schultz
Member
Posts: 3062
Joined: 05 Feb 2003 03:44
Location: Chicago

Post by R.M. Schultz » 21 Sep 2003 05:40

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:The Charlemagne volunteers were uniformed soldiers (like the foreigners of the french foreign legion) fighting communism at the Eastern Front with the authorization of the legal french government (at this time,the Vichy one ) …


Isn't this just an old lawer's trick?

When the facts aren't on your side, argue the law.

mars
Member
Posts: 1126
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 19:50
Location: Shanghai

Post by mars » 21 Sep 2003 05:47

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Thanks a lot ,George !

Mars : The Charlemagne volunteers were uniformed soldiers (like the foreigners of the french foreign legion) fighting communism at the Eastern Front with the authorization of the legal french government (at this time,the Vichy one ) , not terrorists murdering civilians in peacetime !


No, sir, when your country was invaded, you have NO right to join your country's enemy's army, none excuse would be accepted included the famous "fighting the communism",we call these action "treason", and that is why French people decided to put Marshal Pertain on trail after the war

CHRISCHA
Financial supporter
Posts: 2461
Joined: 28 Jan 2003 18:21
Location: England, Kent

Post by CHRISCHA » 21 Sep 2003 09:44

As I said in a post on the previous discussion thread, no matter how you justify or argue the motives, allowences, honour, etc. from either point of view, this was a war crime.

User avatar
Scott Smith
Member
Posts: 5602
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 21:17
Location: Arizona

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Sep 2003 10:50

mars wrote:to understanding this, you could just imagine what American soldiers's reaction would be if some of the 9-11 hijackers were American citizen

Not quite. The Charlemagne never fought France or the French, and this was after the 1940 Armistice anyway. It could be argued in fact that they were fighting the Soviet Union for France. Just because the Allies installed a new government does not make them traitors. Of course the "international community" would not have put LeClerc on trial at Nuremberg. Only the Axis committed warcrimes. When the Allies committed massacres these were only "military operations."

R.M. Schultz wrote:
Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:The Charlemagne volunteers were uniformed soldiers (like the foreigners of the french foreign legion) fighting communism at the Eastern Front with the authorization of the legal french government (at this time,the Vichy one )

Isn't this just an old lawer's trick?

When the facts aren't on your side, argue the law.

Exactly. It was "International Law" because the Allies said-so. They even signed a treaty in London amongst themselves, wherein they agreed that evidence was an irrelevant matter unless they found it helpful to their own prosecution of German leaders.
:)

User avatar
Miki
Member
Posts: 54
Joined: 26 Apr 2003 17:07
Location: Split,Croatia

Post by Miki » 21 Sep 2003 13:21

mars wrote:No, sir, when your country was invaded, you have NO right to join your country's enemy's army, none excuse would be accepted included the famous "fighting the communism",we call these action "treason", and that is why French people decided to put Marshal Pertain on trail after the war


So you say that every man in Iraq whos not now fighting
against American and his allies is traitor.
Interesting thinking

regards
Miki

Dan
Financial supporter
Posts: 8429
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:06
Location: California

Post by Dan » 21 Sep 2003 15:35

No, sir, when your country was invaded, you have NO right to join your country's enemy's army


:lol: :lol:

And were the Senagalese soldiers that the French used traitors to their tribe? :lol:

What's the difference between a lawyer's trick and anything else? It's just a meaningless statement. After how many years does it become immoral to join a former enemy army? 1? 48? Among the Afrikaners Smuts and Botha and Vandeventer were traitors to half the population, and heros to the other half, and that was 15 years afterwards.

mars
Member
Posts: 1126
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 19:50
Location: Shanghai

Post by mars » 21 Sep 2003 17:18

Dan wrote:
No, sir, when your country was invaded, you have NO right to join your country's enemy's army


:lol: :lol:

And were the Senagalese soldiers that the French used traitors to their tribe? :lol:

What's the difference between a lawyer's trick and anything else? It's just a meaningless statement. After how many years does it become immoral to join a former enemy army? 1? 48? Among the Afrikaners Smuts and Botha and Vandeventer were traitors to half the population, and heros to the other half, and that was 15 years afterwards.


sigh, sir, you can try to join Ben Laden's gang, and later make your lawyer to make this argument on the American court, I am sure it will work.

Witch-King of Angmar
Member
Posts: 915
Joined: 28 Feb 2003 20:40
Location: Europe

Post by Witch-King of Angmar » 21 Sep 2003 17:33

mars wrote:
Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Thanks a lot ,George !

Mars : The Charlemagne volunteers were uniformed soldiers (like the foreigners of the french foreign legion) fighting communism at the Eastern Front with the authorization of the legal french government (at this time,the Vichy one ) , not terrorists murdering civilians in peacetime !


No, sir, when your country was invaded, you have NO right to join your country's enemy's army, none excuse would be accepted included the famous "fighting the communism",we call these action "treason", and that is why French people decided to put Marshal Pertain on trail after the war


Would you say the same thing about a German who joined an Allied army?

~The Witch King of Angmar

Dan
Financial supporter
Posts: 8429
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:06
Location: California

Post by Dan » 21 Sep 2003 19:54

Would you say the same thing about a German who joined an Allied army?


Or the thousands of Germans who stayed loyal to the French Foreign Legion during both wars?

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”