Charlemagne soldiers executed at Bad Reichenhall

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R.M. Schultz
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Post by R.M. Schultz » 24 Sep 2003 06:19

Dan wrote:Your statement that anything is legal in a case of self defence, as long as it works. I say no, it isn't. It can be wrong even if it works.
Could you clarify this with an example?
Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:1. Charlemagne soldiers war criminals ? well,they fougt like soldiers,never executed civilians or prisonners,not even the allied or the russians accused them to be war criminals....
Hasn't that already been answered?
alsaco wrote:Saying that these Charlemagne "volunteers" had not fought against french people on french soil is really exaggerated. In fact their duration of services against frenchmen was certainly superior to their services against bolchevism under german uniform. Moreover, don't say they ignored their action was also aimed against the jews. Their oath by entry in the milice specifically mentioned the fight against the jews.
Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:2. No war ,no crimes ????
I believe that here you are referring to the fact that Walter Stennis said that if Röhm had lived there would have been no war in 1939, and this I believe to be the case. It is well documented that Röhm regarded British Imperialism as the real enemy (as Hitler most certainly did not) and he favored a rapprochement with France and an alliance with the other "socialist" power Bolshevik Russia. It can be demonstrated that, beginning with the Bamburg Conference in 1926, Hitler systematically purged (e.g. Stennis, Röhm, Strasser) or converted (most notably Goebbels) all of those favoring an "Eastern Policy" and steered unrelentingly towards a war of genocide in the East. Hence, no Röhm = war + genocide.
Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:3. Comebacking with french vichy govt,legalities and the like,don't you know that the British attacked theit french allies as soon as July 1940 at Mers-els-Kebir ?
Hadn't the French deserted their British allies in June of 1940? Doesn't that make the Vichy regieme a government of "traitors?"
Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:As a ''christian'' i see you are pretty badmouthed and prompt to the insults,as a personal remark....
Comrade Charlemagne:

I am deeply sorry if any of the posts directed at you have been insulting or personal in nature. As I have always had the most cordial exchanges with you, it would greave me deeply for you to have taken any remark directed at you as being derogatory or depreciating in any way. Please point out any "bad-mouthing" that I have done of you and I will most promptly delete it.

Yours For A Better World — Schultz

Lobscouse
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The French

Post by Lobscouse » 24 Sep 2003 06:48

Am I the only one to notice a proviso that our moderator(s) seem to insist on inserting into any suggestion of allied war crimes against Germany and her allies, but never when the shoe is on the other foot? I refer to the phrase "assuming that the stories are true."

RMS.
How did you figure the French deserted their British allies in June 1940?
Did not theFrench fight on for a further few weeks after the departure of their British allies. I do not see how we could have expected them to join the British in one big bug-out across the channel.

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Post by David Thompson » 24 Sep 2003 06:56

Lobscouse -- You said:
Am I the only one to notice a proviso that our moderator(s) seem to insist on inserting into any suggestion of allied war crimes against Germany and her allies, but never when the shoe is on the other foot? I refer to the phrase "assuming that the stories are true."
If your point is that I'm skeptical of allegations for which I have seen no evidence, you're correct. Such a story may or may not be true. I'm always interested in learning more. Verifiable evidence, however, is what separates fact from folklore. Without verifiable evidence, we might just as well sit around and tell each other ghost stories.

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R.M. Schultz
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Re: The French

Post by R.M. Schultz » 24 Sep 2003 07:01

Lobscouse wrote:RMS.
How did you figure the French deserted their British allies in June 1940?
I was using the word "traitor" ironically, since it has no place in a discussion of morality. Loyalty is only a virtue in service of morality, thus one would be virtuous if one "betrayed" an evil cause. Sure, Stauffenberg was a "traitor," and because he betrayed a heinous regime decent people everywhere regard him as a hero.

The British attacks on the French in 1940 were probably a necessary measure to keep French assets out of German hands. It is, however, a morally complex situation that is not easily dealt with — unlike genocide which can never be condoned.

Lobscouse
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Desertion

Post by Lobscouse » 24 Sep 2003 07:23

RMS
You did not answer my question. Morality, virtue, loyalty, Stauffenberg et al was not what I asked for. Desertion was the subject.

DT

You are correct, of course. We do not wish to propagate ghost stories, as it would make this forum meaningless. Its just that anyone trying to make the case for our side's alleged war crimes must provide a level of proof that is not always available to him. No allied war criminals were ever charged or tried, and so there is no witness statements, no confessions or other evidence. On the other hand, every little piece of Nazi nastiness is "a well documented fact," as a local newspaper columnist used to write about the things they had done.

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R.M. Schultz
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Re: The French

Post by R.M. Schultz » 24 Sep 2003 09:52

Lobscouse wrote:RMS.
How did you figure the French deserted their British allies in June 1940?
Did not theFrench fight on for a further few weeks after the departure of their British allies. I do not see how we could have expected them to join the British in one big bug-out across the channel.
The French betrayed their British allies by setting up a Quisling regime and by not turning over or scuttling their fleet. The extra few weeks of resistance after the BEF evacuation probably was of only marginal significance. The whole thing was an unfortunate, messy situation though, and only DeGaulle comes out looking good.

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Arminiusder Cherusker1
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Charlemagne soldiers

Post by Arminiusder Cherusker1 » 24 Sep 2003 17:25

Mr. Schultz,
it's your opinion to hate the whole former Waffen-SS and it's probably your good right to do so. But I can't agree, when you call those young soldiers a "pack of war criminals".
Theydidn't fight for Adolf Hitler or the Nazis, they joined as volunteers the Waffen-SS, because they wanted to fight for a free Europa.That's the big difference!
The only war criminal in this case was a gangster named Leclerc.One of his reasons to murder those POW's was, that he and his halfsoldiers couldn't arrive at Obersalzberg before the US-Army.(The commanding officer,General-Major John W. O'Daniel, ordered the 7.Inf.Regiment to arrive at Obersalzberg in any case before the others.So he stopped Leclerc and his crew on the Saalbachbrücke and therefore he couldn't be the first at Obersalzberg). This was one of his reasons to murder 11 young
french soldiers, who where unarmed and POW's.
What a glorious thing!
And you call those brave soldiers, who gave theyr lifes for a free Europa,a packof war criminals.I would be ashamed about such an attitude.
BTW: I am really satisfied, that this war criminal got killed on 28.Nov.47,
when his plane crashed(Order of DeGaulle?).
David,
that's not a story or something else, it is the truth and every year you can see a lot of former comrades and german friends visiting the graves in Bad Reichenhall and the place am Kugelbach,where the soldiers got
murdered.
You can find everything about those days in the book "Die Schreckens-
jahre von Bad Reichenhall" from Fritz Hofmann,Stadtheimatpfleger,
w.d.v.-Verlag Mitterfelden.
Rudi

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chalutzim
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Re: Charlemagne soldiers

Post by chalutzim » 24 Sep 2003 17:48

Arminiusder Cherusker1 wrote:(...) They didn't fight for Adolf Hitler or the Nazis, they joined as volunteers the Waffen-SS, because they wanted to fight for a free Europa.That's the big difference!
If they were not fighting for Hitler or the Nazis, I guess you're contemplating they were fighting for a free Europe rid of them? Can you imagine a free Europe with Hitler and Nazis running the business?

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Re: The French

Post by Lobscouse » 24 Sep 2003 22:59

R.M. Schultz wrote:
Lobscouse wrote:RMS.
How did you figure the French deserted their British allies in June 1940?
Did not theFrench fight on for a further few weeks after the departure of their British allies. I do not see how we could have expected them to join the British in one big bug-out across the channel.
The French betrayed their British allies by setting up a Quisling regime and by not turning over or scuttling their fleet. The extra few weeks of resistance after the BEF evacuation probably was of only marginal significance. The whole thing was an unfortunate, messy situation though, and only DeGaulle comes out looking good.
Having read quite a few of your postings on 3RF I consider you an educated and well informed member, and one I often enjoy reading.
Which makes it all the more difficult for me to fathom the depth of your reasoning on this matter of Anglo-French shenanigans during 1940.
I would like to remind you that it was the British (my people) who could not get out of France quickly enough, having encountered an enemy that took its soldiering seriously. The British left the French holding the bag, as we say. And choose a better parallel than Quisling when talking about French capitulation, as Marechal Petain was the Hero of Verdun and notjust some beaurocrat.
We have got off topic, and I have given my two cents worth, so Adieu mon vieux.

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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 24 Sep 2003 23:01

Fur der Bayerisches Kamerad : Danke schoen !

Chalutzim : Yes ,we can imagine a free Europa without criminal,rapists immigrants, (the links of Al Quaida towers terrorists were in France ,Germany and England !) , without legal abortion (the holocaust of OUR people!)
with social justice and pride...even if that make you puke !

Comrade Schultz,i accept your explanation...let's keep the courteous relation. About the answer of Alsaco,he was wrong,mistaking the French Militia with the Sipo-SD Betzen Militia (less than 200 men) who were NEVER versed to the Charlemagne...i raised the point and since then,our friend Alsaco is keeping a low profile !
About what happened in June 1940,the brits are the one who fled (Dunkerke) and i will come back with HOW did the Vichy govt raise ounder the begging of the III republic masonic ghosts ...

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Post by mars » 24 Sep 2003 23:15

Mr Charlemagne, since when the Nazi Germany became a democracy region and when did the third Reich had anything to do with a "free Europe" ?
I had no any hard feeling to these German SS soldiers, since they at least could claim they were fighting for their homeland , although I hate Nazi ideology and no one could deny that German SS soldiers was also fighting for Hilter and his evil empire, but I always respect those who fight for his country, I also had nothing to against those SS volunteer from Spain, Swiss, Finland, I agree anyone has his right to fight for what he believe, but I consider those SS volunteers from allied country, France, Holand, Belgium, Norway, Denmark, were traitors to their country.

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x

Post by Xavier » 24 Sep 2003 23:26

but I consider those SS volunteers from allied country, France, Holand, Belgium, Norway, Denmark, were traitors to their country.
allied countries? occupied countries, and also that is why they carried the tag "volunteers" not drafted.

in the end it was all about ideology, and no matter how bad, they had already surrendered, the conquerors had no right to do summary executions.

everybody talks about law, rights, conventions, but in war everything is possible..for the winner.


my two cents

Xavier
the links crounger

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Post by David Thompson » 25 Sep 2003 02:09

Ostuf Charlemagne -- Thanks for the reference on this incident. I like to look at eyewitness statements and contemporary reports, which I'm sure the book contains, before I make up my mind about the likely truth of something I didn't see for myself.

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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 25 Sep 2003 03:36

My dear Thompson,i think you're trying your best to be impartial...even so when any holocaustist claims some numbers ,he is always right....(like our friend Alsaco who started about rapes supposedly committed by the Betzen Perrot - without anymore info-) but when i ,or others talks about allied crimes we have to give names,places, (wich i can do so far,you know i'm documented,but some aren't that much...) ..and we may feel lucky if they dn't ask us the number phone of the victims !
Remember that by now,the survivors from any side of WW2 are becoming VERY OLD,AND FEW AND FAR BETWEEN.....so, to ask about witnesses.....

Mr. Mars : you just can't ounderstand it for 3 reasons :

1. It happened in Europa and you are not european (no offense mean)..
this is the same reason for what i don't enter topics about the war in the Pacific,for wich i would have something to say,but since i'm not from these countries,since i don't know of any vet or civilian survivor who was there,since i don't have or ounderstand the asiatic mentality,way of life,etc... i prefer not to say.It will be to easy to say stupidities or a fact i can't prove... this exactly what happens to you.

2. Believe it or not,the war in Europa was a civil war as soon as June 41 when Hitler attacked Russia to destroy communism...for many it was perceived as a cruzade.

3. Your self professed hate of National - Socialism,wich won't help you to ounderstand the motivations of the volunteers of the occupied countries.
Let's me give you only one instance i know very well :
I know a french guy,always alive who joined the SS...he was not politic. He had no special admiration for Hitler or whoever....all his family ,father,mother and a baby brother were killed by an US (or english) air bombing in Paris in 1943. On second day he volunteered in the Waffen-SS...he declared to the german recruiter that he had an alsatian grand-father (wich was not true) ,so was considered from german ascendence and he was sent to the Das Reich division...after being wounded in battle,and after some time in hospitals,he was sent to the Horst Wessel SS Division...a pure frenchmen (he went to german units because he hopped to fight against anglo-americans to avenge his family...entering the french SS would limited him to the Eastern Front...but so far,with the Horst Wessel div.he spent the war in the eastern front anyway.) If you know that 55,000 french civilians were killed by alleid bombings,you may ounderstand some motivations...and don't bullshit me it was bombing against germans installations ,lots of cities destroyed had NO german militaries installations nearby.They were just ''terrorangriff'' as said - rightly- the germans.
For another i9nstance i know a man who for identical reasons,joined the french Militia (and was versed later to the Charlemagne) the VERY June 6th 1944..the D-Day.
So don't talk to me bullshit about things you just don't know.Thank you.

mars
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Post by mars » 25 Sep 2003 03:54

Fair enough, Charlemagne, I just wonder why I spent my time to discuss this issue with someone who adore Nazi like you, so let us behave like two gentleman and end this discussion now, I have nothing more to say to you

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