Faked photos of Einsatzgruppe atrocities

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jpatterson
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Post by jpatterson » 27 Oct 2003 23:17


Ostuf Charlemagne
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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 28 Oct 2003 01:57

Hi ,Patterson...i tried it ,but it reads ''error- no file found '' ????

David Thompson
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Post by David Thompson » 28 Oct 2003 03:17

jpatterson -- I got the same 404 message as Ostuf Charlemagne.

Rob - wssob2
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faked photos

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 28 Oct 2003 15:45

Hey folks! I found some fake einsatzgruppen photos from the snowy wilds of Canada!

Look at that! A Toronto Maple Leafs jersey! I told you MI-6 couldn't get the uniforms right!
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And is that a CANADIAN MOUNTIE behind troops of the SS Cavalry Brigade? Poof of the perfidious gruelpropaganda the Allies would create!
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See? So now it's absolutely clear that the Einsatzgruppen were just moose-hunting...
Image

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hauptmannn
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Post by hauptmannn » 28 Oct 2003 16:11

:lol: lol! :lol:

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Germania
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Post by Germania » 28 Oct 2003 16:57

jpatterson wrote:Ostuf Charlemagne, http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/german/ ... ionism.htm

Do you think nizkor would show different things? Or things that say Einsatzgruppen photos are faked? This sources is to much involved in the whole thing for me to be 100% true! My opinion!

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Michael Miller
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Rob...

Post by Michael Miller » 29 Oct 2003 04:41

Rob, I appoint you Hero of this Discussion! Laughing my Arsch off!

Best regards,
~ Mike

Ostuf Charlemagne
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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 30 Oct 2003 00:38

Rob , can you do me a favor ? - no kidding - ...
Can you post the third picture ( the original ,without the moose :wink: )

I 'm looking for this pic since time ago ...thanks.

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Germania
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Post by Germania » 30 Oct 2003 17:57

look for the Tamiya catalog I think you will find the pic there!

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Tavi R.
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Post by Tavi R. » 30 Oct 2003 22:45

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Rob , can you do me a favor ? - no kidding - ...
Can you post the third picture ( the original ,without the moose :wink: )

I'm looking for this pic since time ago ...thanks.


Were you referring to this one? :D

It's my impression that the guy (can someone knowing his way around German uniforms tell us whether what the guy is wearing a true German uniform or not? I've always found him weird :? ) holding the rifle is aiming at someone other than the woman and her child. Look at the people on the extreme right of the photo jumping for cover. I wonder why this photo is never shown completely. :P

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Post by michael mills » 31 Oct 2003 00:21

The photograph posted by Tavi R has been much discussed in various fora.

He is correct in saying that it is almost always reproduced in a cropped form, showing only the man in a German Order Police uniform aiming his rifle and the cringing woman to his right holding a child.

As I understand it, the photograph was first published by Soviet sources, with the statement that it had been taken from a German prisoner (which is the most probable explanation). It is claimed that the word "Judenaktion" was written on the back of the photograph, but if that is indeed the case, we have no way of knowing for certain who wrote that word.

The full photograph does not resemble a conventional execution scene. It is difficult to determine what the group of three (?) persons on the extreme right are doing. They appear to be taking cover, or ducking to avoid fire. Some digging implements are on the ground next to them.

It might be claimed that the digging implements were present for the purpose of excavating a grave for the bodies of persons being executed. But no grave is visible, and it seems unlikely that a detachment carrying out executions would start shooting the victims until the grave had been prepared.

Two rifles in firing position appear on the extreme left. It is difficult to determine what they are aiming at. Their target does not appear to be either the standing woman or the group of people on the right, although the angle of the shot makes it very difficult to tell.

At the same time, the scene does not appear to show a conventional fire-fight, since the men with the rifles have not taken cover. What appears to be a fallen body lies near the feet of the man aiming the rifle. That might be a person he has just shot, or a person hit by incoming fire.

I think it impossible to be absolutely certain what the photograph is showing. But what is certain is that the reproduction of the photograph in its cropped form is deliberately deceptive.

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Tavi R.
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Post by Tavi R. » 31 Oct 2003 01:11

michael mills wrote:He is correct in saying that it is almost always reproduced in a cropped form, showing only the man in a German Order Police uniform aiming his rifle and the cringing woman to his right holding a child.


I read (forgot where) some time ago that the man with the rifle isn't German, but a Russian wearing some kind of British tunic (or maybe the cap is British). It also said something about the rifle ressembling a Russian Moisin-Nagant M44 which makes me wonder how on bloody earth it got in a German soldier's hands in 1942 (the photo dates from 1942 according to many sources). 8O

"Ivangorod, Ukraine, 1942."
http://www.zwoje.com/shoah/towns.html
"Execution at Ivangorod (1942)"
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holoca ... gorod.html
"Einsatzgruppe member kills a Jewish woman and her child near Ivangorod, Ukraine. 1942."
http://www.ushmm.org/kovno/mass/photo.htm

etc. etc. etc.

Rob - wssob2
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Post by Rob - wssob2 » 31 Oct 2003 06:41

I read (forgot where) some time ago that the man with the rifle isn't German, but a Russian wearing some kind of British tunic (or maybe the cap is British).


Can you remember where you read this? Otherwise, it's just an allegation.

BTW that uniform looks pretty WWII German to me - from the cap to the field tunic to the boots. It could be an orpo uniform, or SS/SD, although the guy looks like he's wearing riding breeches, which may be a detail of importance.

It also said something about the rifle ressembling a Russian Moisin-Nagant M44 which makes me wonder how on bloody earth it got in a German soldier's hands in 1942


That's no Mosin-Nagant M44. Take a look:

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vs. German Kar 98

Image

The Mosin-Nagant is short, with a slanted metal magazine next to the trigger guard. This guy's rifle looks like the standard Kar98, without a magazine next to the trigger guard.

BTW the civilians crouching on the right side of the photo are often described as digging a grave with their hands, although I wonder if this photo caught them collapsing immediately following being shot.

Nothing about the Einsatzgruppen resembled conventional execution scenes.

And the cropping has nothing to do with sinister propaganda. The photo is cropped to zoom in on the terrified woman clutching her child the instant before the rifleman's bullet smashes into her skull. It's a horrific visual image which graphically sums up what the Einsatzgruppen were all about - cruel inhumanity.

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Tavi R.
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Post by Tavi R. » 31 Oct 2003 07:32

Dear rob - wsSOB,

"Can you remember where you read this? Otherwise, it's just an allegation."

Whether my source is a revisionist's article or a piece of paper that came from outer space doesn't matter. What matters now is to find a high-res. version of that photo and show it to users whom are experts in German uniforms and smallarms so we can put some doubts to rest.

P.S. I love your website and the way you dare to speak in the name of all Waffen-SS troops. :lol:

Was the Waffen-SS indirectly associated with the Holocaust?

[...]

Their answer would be "yes"

michael mills
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Post by michael mills » 31 Oct 2003 09:56

BTW the civilians crouching on the right side of the photo are often described as digging a grave with their hands, although I wonder if this photo caught them collapsing immediately following being shot.


That is a possible interpretation, although nothing in the photograph allows us to draw a definite conclusion. This is a case of observers reading into the photo a meaning based on their pre-conceptions.

Nothing about the Einsatzgruppen resembled conventional execution scenes.


Eyewitness descriptions of shootings by German SS and police units describe naked victims being herded into prepared pits where they are forced to lie down and be shot. Other descriptions, and also genuine photographic evidence, have the victims being lined up at the edge of a pit, and then shot by a firing squad.

Nothing in this photograph resembles those descriptions, or other photographic evidence. The civilians are not naked. There is no pit for the bodies. The whole scene seems fairly chaotic, unlike the usual situation, where brutal control over the victims was exerted in order to keep the whole process running smoothly.

It is possible that the photograph shows a small, ad hoc shooting of a small number of persons, without the usual preparations. But the upshot is that we cannot be sure.

And the cropping has nothing to do with sinister propaganda. The photo is cropped to zoom in on the terrified woman clutching her child the instant before the rifleman's bullet smashes into her skull. It's a horrific visual image which graphically sums up what the Einsatzgruppen were all about - cruel inhumanity.


The above statement is yet another example of reading something into the photograph based on preconceptions. The woman's face is turned away, so it is impossible to draw any conclusions about her state of mind.

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