Faked photos of Einsatzgruppe atrocities

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tonyh
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Post by tonyh » 31 Oct 2003 12:10

Its cropped because it eliminates the debate of what is exactly going on in the photo. It avoids the confusion generated by the rest of the photo's contents, thus making a "better" photo for the purposes for which it is often shown.

Tony

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chalutzim
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Post by chalutzim » 31 Oct 2003 12:18

michael mills wrote:(...) The woman's face is turned away, so it is impossible to draw any conclusions about her state of mind.


A proof that people can choose to see nothing based on preconceptions as well.

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chalutzim
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Post by chalutzim » 31 Oct 2003 12:25

tonyh wrote:(...) thus making a "better" photo for the purposes for which it is often shown.


To certain minds the display of truth is only propaganda intended:

"Truth is generally the best vindication against slander." Abraham Lincoln (letter to Secretary of War Edwin Stanton, July 18, 1864)

Rob - wssob2
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Post by Rob - wssob2 » 31 Oct 2003 15:35

Whether my source is a revisionist's article or a piece of paper that came from outer space doesn't matter.


Well, yes it does. The outer space document would probably have more basis in reality.

What matters now is to find a high-res. version of that photo and show it to users whom are experts in German uniforms and smallarms so we can put some doubts to rest.


I suppose you don’t like my German uniforms and equipment comments.

Perhaps another forum member will post that this rifleman is conclusively a member of MI-6, or the Swiss Guard,or the LA Lakers. Anything but German. Would that be more suitable?

Yes the W-SS was indirectly involved in the Holocaust. It was also directly involved as well – see c.g.’s 10/30 post at

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=23394

Toomas
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Re: faked photos

Post by Toomas » 03 Nov 2003 14:34

Hello everybody,

I am not taking any stand as I am not familiar of the issue. The thing that bothers me is that in some cases the best argument seems to be joke and mockery on the issue or person, i.e. make fool out of the opponent and you are the winner. IMHO it is the old truth that in case there is an argument between two parties on issues that cannot be backed up by ultimate and both accepted evidence, then usually the argument shall be settled by one party making fun of the other party. I believe that discrediting of the opponent is not a correct method of argumentation.

Look at that! A Toronto Maple Leafs jersey! I told you MI-6 couldn't get the uniforms right!

And is that a CANADIAN MOUNTIE behind troops of the SS Cavalry Brigade? Poof of the perfidious gruelpropaganda the Allies would create!

See? So now it's absolutely clear that the Einsatzgruppen were just moose-hunting...

Rob - wssob2
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Post by Rob - wssob2 » 11 Nov 2003 03:34

The thing that bothers me is that in some cases the best argument seems to be joke and mockery on the issue or person, i.e. make fool out of the opponent and you are the winner. IMHO it is the old truth that in case there is an argument between two parties on issues that cannot be backed up by ultimate and both accepted evidence, then usually the argument shall be settled by one party making fun of the other party. I believe that discrediting of the opponent is not a correct method of argumentation.


Well, Toomas, I apologize if my attempts at satire strike you as in poor taste. But at times the debates on this forum become so otoise and pedantic that I for one sometimes just want to upload an sound file of Springtime for Hitler in Germany from Mel Brooks' The Producers


Here's a couple of examples from Raul Hillberg's The Destruction of The European Jews volume I regarding 3rd-party witness testimony of Einsatzgruppen massacres and Einsatzgruppen photos that weren't taken in Toronto :

p311

"...The Einsatzgruppe set up two pogrom units and let them loose in the city. Both in Kaunas and in Riga, the Einsatzgruppe took photographs and made films of this "self-cleansing actions" (Selbstreinigungsaktionen) as evidence 'for later times' of the severity of native treatment of the Jews" - see also footnote 89, Stahlecker Report to Oct 15, 1941 L-180

p322
"...A second problem, more serious than a lack of 'understanding' of the killings, was soon discovered with dismay by unit commanders. Among the troops the shootings had become a sensation. Many years after having become a witness to such an event, a former soldier recalled: 'Although we were forbidden to go there, it drew us magically.'(146) They watched, took pictures, wrote letters and talked."...In Kiev a group of foreign journalists who had been invited to view the 'Bolshevist destruction' of the city quickly looked up the representative of the civil administration with Army Group Center, Hauptmann Koch, and questioned him about the shootings. When Koch denied everything, the journalists told him that they had pretty exact information about these matters anyway (see footnote 147 - Report by Oberst Erwin Stolze [deputy to Lahousen] Oct 23, 1941 - NOKW-3147 etc.) The members of a Swiss army medical mission with the German forces were similarly informed. One of the Swiss officers, Dr. Rudolf Bucher, not only reported his experiences to his superiors, but gave numerous lectures about what he had heard and seen to military and professional audiences in Switzerland. (see footnote 148 - Alfred Häsler, The Lifeboat is Full New York 1969, p 76-80.

But let me ask you a question, Toomas: why are you more bothered by an obvious (and silly) parody than by the original post which claims the Einsatzgruppen were only "counterintelligence" units and that photos of the Einsatzgruppen were faked by Jewish intelligence agents in Canada? Which is more offensive - Canadian Mounties Photoshopped onto scans of plastic model box art or fraudlent claims that attempt tp revise and minimize, if not outright deny, the role of the Einsatzgruppen in the Holocaust?

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Post by michael mills » 11 Nov 2003 07:06

Rob - WSSOB wrote:

.....the original post which claims the Einsatzgruppen were only "counterintelligence" units .......


To claim that the Einsatzgruppen were only counter-intelligence units is a distortion of history.

But it is just as much a distortion of history to claim that the sole or main purpose of the Einsatzgruppen was shooting Jews.

Certainly, organising the execution of opponents, in the majority Jews, was one of the tasks of the Einsatzgruppen, but not the only one. or even the main one.

Counter-intelligence work, including the capture of material of intelligence value, and the investigation and neutralisation of clandestine resistance groups, was regarded as at least as important by the German Government, and may in fact have been the most important task assigned to the Einsatzgruppen.

The counter-intelligence function was the reason why SD personnel were included on the staff of the Einsatzgruppen. Gestapo officers were included for the purpose of investigating and countering resistance activities. Although the Kommandos of the Einsatzgruppen regularly organised large-scale shooting actions, they drew on other forces to carry out the shooting, eg Waffen-SS units, police units, even Wehrmacht units on occasions.

tonyh
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Post by tonyh » 11 Nov 2003 12:16

chalutzim wrote:
tonyh wrote:(...) thus making a "better" photo for the purposes for which it is often shown.


To certain minds the display of truth is only propaganda intended:

"Truth is generally the best vindication against slander." Abraham Lincoln (letter to Secretary of War Edwin Stanton, July 18, 1864)


And likewise the blind acceptance of propaganda as truth can be very comforting.

Tony

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BuddaBell123
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Re: Faked photos of Einsatzgruppe atrocities

Post by BuddaBell123 » 02 Sep 2013 12:35

This photograph of a member of Einsatzgruppen D has become infamous as one of the only few photographs taken of these "special actions". http://history1900s.about.com/library/h ... nsatz8.htm

However, some websites have suggested that it is either a fake or that it has been edited somewhat. Apparently some of the men in the background don't touch the ground or have no feet and the man aiming the gun at the man kneeling down seems to be stood in an awkward position (his right foot seems to be altered).

Personally, I believe it is real, but that it may have been edited to make it look far more evil. I also have no motive whatsoever I am just curious and the Soviets were famous for faking atrocity photo which does make any photo from the east questionable. But do you think it is real or fake?
Last edited by BuddaBell123 on 02 Sep 2013 16:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Faked photos of Einsatzgruppe atrocities

Post by wingray » 02 Sep 2013 14:40

BuddaBell123 wrote:This photograph of a member of Einsatzgruppen D has become infamous as one of the only few photographs taken of these "special actions". https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=einsa ... 998%3B1474

However, some people have suggested that it is either a fake or that it has been edited somewhat. Apparently some of the men in the background don't touch the ground or have no feet and the man aiming the gun at the man kneeling down seems to be stood in an awkward position (his right foot seems to be altered).

Personally, I believe it is real, but that it may have been edited to make it look far more evil. I also have no motive whatsoever I am just curious and the Soviets were famous for faking atrocity photo which does make any photo from the east questionable. But do you think it is real or fake?
This photo was from a letter of a German soldier, intercepted by the Polish resistance in Warsaw. This photo is real, not edited.

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Re: Faked photos of Einsatzgruppe atrocities

Post by StefanSiverud » 02 Sep 2013 16:07

BuddaBell123 wrote:This photograph of a member of Einsatzgruppen D has become infamous as one of the only few photographs taken of these "special actions". https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=einsa ... 998%3B1474

However, some people have suggested that it is either a fake or that it has been edited somewhat. Apparently some of the men in the background don't touch the ground or have no feet and the man aiming the gun at the man kneeling down seems to be stood in an awkward position (his right foot seems to be altered).

Personally, I believe it is real, but that it may have been edited to make it look far more evil. I also have no motive whatsoever I am just curious and the Soviets were famous for faking atrocity photo which does make any photo from the east questionable. But do you think it is real or fake?
Care to give some examples of Soviet faked atrocity photos? The retouching of photos is well known, but I have not yet seen Soviet-staged photos of supposed German atrocities (outside of the obvious propaganda photos).
Additionally, your link does not appear to point to a specific photo, all I'm seeing is Google image search in Chrome and FF. Anyone else?

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Penn44
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Re: Faked photos of Einsatzgruppe atrocities

Post by Penn44 » 02 Sep 2013 16:24

BuddaBell123 wrote:However, some people have suggested that it is either a fake or that it has been edited somewhat.
Who are these "some people" to whom you refer?

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Marcus
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Re: Faked photos of Einsatzgruppe atrocities

Post by Marcus » 02 Sep 2013 17:20

BuddaBell123 wrote:However, some websites have suggested that it is either a fake or that it has been edited somewhat.
Which ones?
BuddaBell123 wrote:But do you think it is real or fake?
We are not interested in peoples opinions here.

/Marcus

little grey rabbit
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Re: Faked photos of Einsatzgruppe atrocities

Post by little grey rabbit » 03 Sep 2013 06:56

It is difficult to reliably tell a fake soviet (or polish resistance) photo from a genuine one because some of their reproduction techniques were so primitive that even genuine photos end up looking like paintings. Of course it might be a genuine photo but the handwritten inscription on the back might be added afterwards [Edit: I was referring to the "Last Jew of Vinnitsa photo, I think you are talking about a different photo however]. Germans did feel empowered to execute anyone taking part in what they viewed as illegal combat.

When I read some of the interrogations of Einsatzgruppen and police units everywhere (and although I have the notes I won't be able to supply references at the moment, so caveat empor) a number of suspects suggested there were certain rules for group executions. Namely two shooters for each victim, one aiming at the head and one at the chest/back; one standing and one kneeling.

Of course that didn't mean they followed these rules all the time

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Re: Faked photos of Einsatzgruppe atrocities

Post by StefanSiverud » 03 Sep 2013 21:32

little grey rabbit wrote:When I read some of the interrogations of Einsatzgruppen and police units everywhere (and although I have the notes I won't be able to supply references at the moment, so caveat empor) a number of suspects suggested there were certain rules for group executions. Namely two shooters for each victim, one aiming at the head and one at the chest/back; one standing and one kneeling.

Of course that didn't mean they followed these rules all the time
While I'm sure we're going off topic somewhat, most accounts I have read concerning large-scale group executions of civilians by means of firearms - Browning's "Ordinary Men" comes to mind as a good example - suggest the preferred method was a shot to the back of the head/neck with a rifle, putting the tip of the bayonet against the top of the spine as a method of aim if I remember correctly.

I would be interested to know a bit more about what accounts you have found "your" method in, as I'd like to read them myself.

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