Is Simon Wiesenthal a War Criminal or Criminal in general

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Post by David Thompson » 23 Sep 2003 07:01

Part 2:
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Post by David Thompson » 23 Sep 2003 07:13

demonio -- You said:
What about inciting hate against an accused. Also he and the centre appear to be operating as a law unto themselves. What jurisdiction do they have ?


What is the evidence for each of these claims? Let's start with the facts. What are they? Let's walk through it.

(1)
What about inciting hate against an accused?
What is the evidence that Mr. Wiesenthal did that? We have Mr. Walus's accusation, but so far there's nothing else. Mr. Walus thinks that Mr. Wiesenthal did all sorts of things. It may or may not be true, but just because Mr. Walus believes what he says doesn't make it a fact. At the moment, it's just an opinion. Mr. Walus thinks his mother-in-law turned him in. Does the fact that Mr. Walus thinks his mother-in-law is a criminal actually make her one? This is about as logical as Baron Munchausen pulling himself out of the swamp by his own boot-straps.

(2)
Also he and the centre appear to be operating as a law unto themselves. What jurisdiction do they have ?
How specifically is Mr. Wiesenthal operating as a law unto himself? How about the Simon Wiesenthal center? What are you talking about? There's not a lot of point in discussing this without details. Otherwise all we have are wild claims, with no proof to back them up.

I don't care how many people roll their eyes and wave their arms and froth at the mouth about Simon Wiesenthal. What proof is there that he was a war criminal, or any other kind of criminal? The proof either exists, or it doesn't. If it does, let's see it.

Let me put it this way: Your neighbor starts saying that you're a criminal to the other neighbors. What kind of proof should the person with the mouth have to show to prove the accusation? I'd like to see that kind of proof for these allegations.

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Post by demonio » 23 Sep 2003 14:14

How specifically is Mr. Wiesenthal operating as a law unto himself? How about the Simon Wiesenthal center? What are you talking about? There's not a lot of point in discussing this without details. Otherwise all we have are wild claims, with no proof to back them up


The centre has no jurisdiction anywhere, but has the power of infuence to destroy someones life with one statement or phone call. This is vengeance gone mad. These matters should be left up to a government body. You know "by the people for the people...:

what are the crimes ? Fueling/Promoting hate towards individuals and groups before someone has been found guilty is illegal in many countries. This is in contrvention of god knows how many laws.

What about "perverting the course of justice" which is also a crime. Clearly he has a case to answer for in the matter of Walrus


I don't care how many people roll their eyes and wave their arms and froth at the mouth about Simon Wiesenthal. What proof is there that he was a war criminal, or any other kind of criminal? The proof either exists, or it doesn't. If it does, let's see it.


The centre is becoming a public nuisance with all sorts of people finding themselves labelled racists on the "digital hate directory" available from the Wiesenthal website for $20

Let me put it this way: Your neighbor starts saying that you're a criminal to the other neighbors. What kind of proof should the person with the mouth have to show to prove the accusation? I'd like to see that kind of proof for these allegations.


Funny that. Thats exactly what the centre is doing. People have the right to fair treatment and an assumption of innocence. These are rights that the Wiesenthal centre helped to take away from Frank Walrus.

Honestly, Doesnt it disturb you that a group (not a govt body) can label you because they disagree with your views and then you can be jailed or alienated/deported ???????

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Post by David Thompson » 23 Sep 2003 16:54

demonio -- I asked for proof. Your response has been to repeat your conclusions. Stating the same proposition twice, or saying it louder, does not make it true. You are trying to get to a discussion of your conclusions without showing that they have any factual basis. I have made this point as clearly as the English language permits.

Readers can get all the repetitious slogans they want on commercial television and radio. They visit the forum for reasoned discussions of factual issues. You raised the question of whether Simon Wiesenthal was a war criminal or some kind of criminal. This is a serious accusation. If chanted slogans and baseless allegations are all the thread has to offer as proof, it's time to close it as unproductive.

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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 25 Sep 2003 03:53

Why is Demonio banned ? Just because he started this topic ????

Now let's see what i'm scanning....yes there is rumors about Wiesenthal being a Kapo.If what we gone read is true,that makes him a criminal against his fellow jews.
Also nobody can deny that this man have broken lots of laws with complete impunity and the fact that he have twisted lots of innocent lifes..at last the one -well documented- of innocent John Demanjuk...
that makes Wiesenthal a criminal,and worse,an immune one !


The scann from ''SS Panzergrenadier'' by Hans Schmidt.
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Post by David Thompson » 25 Sep 2003 05:52

Ostuf Charlemagne -- On demonio see p. 4 of:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=7219

"Demonio has been banned for repeatedly violating the guidelines despite being given several warnings."


As for Mr. Wiesenthal, please start with the law (or laws) you claim he broke. Then please show when, where, and how he broke that law. Please repeat this process for each violation.

If you are only expressing your personal opinion, please say so. If you're saying that your personal opinion is a fact, then prove it. That way we won't have to worry about libel laws.

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demonio

Post by RACPISA » 25 Sep 2003 17:13

The centre has no jurisdiction anywhere, but has the power of infuence to destroy someones life with one statement or phone call. This is vengeance gone mad. These matters should be left up to a government bodywhat are the crimes ? Fueling/Promoting hate towards individuals and groups before someone has been found guilty is illegal in many countries. This is in contrvention of god knows how many laws.
. You know "by the people for the people...:

What about "perverting the course of justice" which is also a crime. Clearly he has a case to answer for in the matter of Walrus...

The centre is becoming a public nuisance with all sorts of people finding themselves labelled racists on the "digital hate directory" available from the Wiesenthal website for $20


I'm sorry if I'm being a pain in the butt about this, but demonio joined the forum almost the same day I did. He wasn't some schmuck who showed up last week, starting lipping off to members, and got banned right away. I always get a little sad when a long-term member gets banned.

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Re: demonio

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 25 Sep 2003 19:02

Is this the reason, that he was stating negative theories about Wiesenthal as facts, and we don't want Wiesenthal to sue us? I can understand that, and want to believe that, because the alternative is that Demonio was banned simply for voicing problems with Wiesenthal's organization.



I am quite concerned about the insinuations that you present. I am super concern that some third party that really has no business with our talk of history could by a small expenditue of money can close our sight down or more accurately Marcus's sight down simply because they threaten a lawsuit, They could never win in court but I fully understand the position of Marcus as to legal fee for defending against such a frivolous lawsuit.

No matter, but at least now if this sight ever suddenly disappears, I might had a good idea of what caused it, much better in fact than knowing the reason why Demonio got banned.

Excuse the off-topic rant , but since the poster is gone I think it is.

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Post by Marcus » 25 Sep 2003 19:22

As have been pointed of many times, any and all comments & questions about banning should be sent to myself or one of the moderators via pm or email, not posted in the forum.


This said, let me just assure you that the reasons he was banned have nothing to do with this thread or Wiesenthal.

/Marcus

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Post by John W » 25 Sep 2003 23:07

Ostuf Charlemagne = The scanned page you posted, troubles me with what is known as "being vague". Where is it dexribed if the Kapo introduced himself to Schmidt? Scmidt uses terms such as "according to some reports" and "there certainly was some resembelence" to make these claims. I bear a certain resembelence to Michael Jacson in his youth.... does that make me the said person? (Or in David Brown's opinion I look like some dodgy mechanic who sold him bad Yamahas! :lol: )

Such claims aren't even worth the paper they are printed on!

This debate is interesting. Perhaps Demonio raised some pertinent questions and I feel all he had to do was present some laws and show hom Mr. Wiesenthal was violating them with regards to which actions of his. I think that was all he was required to do.

John

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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 28 Sep 2003 04:23

I was just demostrating that maybe Demonio is not wrong and that ,yes,there is rumors (and LOTS of these) saying that Wiesenthal was a kapo ...you may not believe Hans schmidt ,a former SS ,but you may believe austrain chancellor (jew and socialist,former deported ) Bruno Kreisky who said publicly THE SAME ABOUT WIESENTHAL !!!

Sorry if your hero is stained..... Personally i don't know,i didn't started this topic - and Demonio had a lot of balls to do it !- but i find it interesting....if Wiesenthal is not a criminal (and breaking laws make anybody a criminal !) at last he is a fraud.I don't say it myself,Bruno Kreisky did.... and the pics published by Demonio are evidences that both Wiesenthal and his ''center'' are frauds !!

btw,don't worry if you look like Michael Jackson,nobody is perfect .... :P

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Post by John W » 28 Sep 2003 04:51

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:I was just demostrating that maybe Demonio is not wrong and that ,yes,there is rumors (and LOTS of these) saying that Wiesenthal was a kapo
The quantity of rumours is of little concern to me. A rumour is a rumour is a rumour. Where is fact?

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:...you may not believe Hans schmidt ,a former SS ,but you may believe austrain chancellor (jew and socialist,former deported ) Bruno Kreisky who said publicly THE SAME ABOUT WIESENTHAL !!!
Be he a Jew or an Aborigine or even a pagan, what has that to do with this? Is there evidence? Where are the facts?

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Sorry if your hero is stained
That he is my Hero or not is of little concern to this debate.

John

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Post by David Thompson » 28 Sep 2003 06:22

There is a problem here. A man -- in this case Simon Wiesenthal -- is accused of one or more crimes. In my opinion, common decency requires a clear statement of what the crime is, and the reason for believing the accused person committed it.

We don't have that here. What we do have are repeated allegations, without any specific detail, that Wiesenthal committed crimes. There has been no proof of this whatsoever.

The advocates of the "Wiesenthal is a criminal" point of view have reverted to merely chanting the accusation over and over, as though mindless repetition might somehow make it true. If we are to have no proof presented for the readers, there's not much point in continuing the thread.

This is an apolitical forum, established for the purpose of permitting informed discussions on the subject of the holocaust and war crimes. There needs to be something more substantial than chanting a conclusion over and over again or murmuring rumors, without anything to back up the allegations, to achieve this goal.

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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 29 Sep 2003 00:30

OK...it seems we have a very HOT topic here ... (ask Demonio ! :( )

I forget my land mines detector and my flak jacket :P

So i drop it..... Sayonara !!!

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Post by David Thompson » 29 Sep 2003 03:43

Ostuf Charlemagne -- If there's proof out there, I'd like to see it and the readers probably would too. Whatever "demonio" may be, he's not a martyr to this thread.

Everyone -- When you think of posting on the H&WC section of the forum, think "proof."

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