I got a Suggestion!

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Snafu
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I got a Suggestion!

#1

Post by Snafu » 24 May 2002, 16:42

Okay, it's not an entirely new idea, but who cares as long as it solves our disputes about the holocaust, right?

I'd like to ask the esteemed members of the forum if there is some serious interest in actually taking a trip to Poland and conducting a GPR survey under the auspices of the "Third Reich Factbook"?

Mission objective: Treblinka II mass graves.

This might sound fantastic or eccentric to some, crazy even, but what is more crazy, spending years engaging in a hopelessly stalemate debate, or at last getting some real answers?

Personally I'm desperate about the latter, I want to know!

GPR or "Ground Penetrating Radar" is a standard tool used by municipal authorities, criminal investigators, private enterprise and modern forensic archeology in establishing what's really lurking below in a given area. It's able to discover organic and inorganic material as well soil disturbances and mass graves down to the depth of several meters, depending on the ground conditions.
Hundreds of thousands of bodies buried, then excavated, cremated and reburied at the limited area of TII will in other words, leave their trace and once the layers of soil have been shifted, the mix up will remain detectable for centuries. Here's the ultimate chance for everyone who wants to prove that the holocaust definitely occured or doing just the opposite to have it their way! And because everybody are so damn sure about themselves, it can only be interpreted as a win-win situation for everybody, yes? :D

Of course Marcus Wendel and the moderators are invited to protect and take part in the glory of such a venture like everything else happening on their website.

Notes on Methodology:
Archeological and GPR investigations of holocaust sites have been carried out in the past. I need only mention the 1997-98 investigation at Belzec and Australian revisionist Krege's GPR scanning at Treblinka in 1999. Problems with those: only representatives of one side in the debate were engaged, naturally leading to the other side mistrusting every find they claimed! Laughable? Yes, but that's the level of mutual distrust in the debate.
An absolute prerequisite therefore lies in an equal number of representatives from both sides agreeing to make a combined effort to co-operate in a single investigation. Natural representatives from the forum members would for instance at least include Scott Smith, Dan and Michael Mills from the revisionist side; Roberto and Hans for the traditionalists - and hopefully many others.
Secondly, each participant must vow to accept the implications of eventual findings before start of the investigation set to a certain number of parameters. Typically, if soil disturbances indicate mass graves capable of holding bodily remains in the range of tens of thousands of victims or less, (which a revisionist would expect) then Roberto et consortes must admit that mass gassings as claimed was never carried out here and that the standard story is simply wrong regardless of any documentary "evidence". On the other hand, if soil disturbances indicate mass graves big enough to hold a magnitude of hundreds of thousands of victims (note the plural - the standard story puts the death toll to at least 800 000) then the revisionist representatives must yield to the standard story and admit that some sort of mass gassing by monoxide exhaust is the only viable explanation for the events to have taken place.
Thirdly, the exact nature of such parameters must be set up in advance. For example, there must be agreement on how many bodies a certain volume can be expected to contain, not least in relation to the nature of the remains, whole corpses or burnt ashes etc, etc.
Initially however, I think Treblinka lends itself admirably in this regard because if I'm not incorrect, there is relatively detailed information on the chronology of the camp, when the big graves were dug and excavated, how many victims had entered the camps at that time, what amount could have been expected to have been cremated on the great rails etc. If nothing else, the graves that should have been excavated by the Germans in 1943 must confirm to a certain size of displaced soil.

Technical Considerations
The correct interpretation of GPR findings are not automatically expected to be easily accomplished by an amatuer. The entire range of findings including control samples must probably be subjected to a third party of specialists. It would perhaps be advicable that this third party knows nothing about the identity of the actual site being surveyed in order to assure neutrality and absolute objectivity.
It would of course be helpful if the investigating team could include participants with some kind of archeological training. Several people here probably entertain ties to universities or other academical institutions, so maybe one or two strings could be pulled in support of the project (provided that a genuine interest in the matter exist of course).

Doing This:
The GPR used by Krege cost about 80 000 $, so buying one of those nifty little apparati is simply not an option, I guess. However, at the place below for example you can hire a GPR for about 2000 $ a week; for a group of say 20 people it should't prove an insurmountable expenditure. Remember that the TII extermination site is not very large and maybe a week is all that is needed to cover it.
http://www.alpha-geo.com
Also this firm performs entire investigations and analysis for a certain fee, depending on the circumstances. Check it out! Perhaps they'll agree solely to analyse samples as well:
http://www.geo-graf.com/
Regular flights to Warsaw should be less of a problem and eastwards one should be able to go by train or bus to the town of Malkinia where base accomodation could be established. From there it's only very few (I think less than 3) kilometres south to the Treblinka II extermination site along the track of the branch line/siding ending at Treblinka III labour camp.
After a good meal and friendly dinner in Malkinia, where chivalric toasts and mutual congratulations to the success of the other are exchanged, we could trek down the road to begin the first day of investigations the following morning.

Well ladies and gentlemen, what do you say? I know this might sound like putting on real big gears and people have lives and work to do, but at least in principle, doesn't it sound like a good idea?
All comments, reactions and alternative suggestions to what I've written will be gratefully recieved and duly noted.

Sincerely,
Snafu
Last edited by Snafu on 25 May 2002, 09:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Roberto
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#2

Post by Roberto » 24 May 2002, 17:24

A good idea in principle. Just a few questions:

1. Why fool around with a GPR? Why not hire an expert archaeological team for some exhaustive digging?

2. Who pays? If it's Uncle Brad, I'll be delighted. :lol:


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Victor´s Justice?
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#3

Post by Victor´s Justice? » 24 May 2002, 23:15

You guys are weirdos, hehehe...but if anyone pays the plane tickets from Brazil, that´s OK for me..!

Anyway, I am trying to study in Sweden, Stockholm...do you guys have any advice on housing there or in neighboring areas? Thanks in advance.

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Snafu
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#4

Post by Snafu » 25 May 2002, 01:50

1. Why fool around with a GPR? Why not hire an expert archaeological team for some exhaustive digging?
Well, we'd be all like that I'm sure. Yet my initial thought was, GPR - thingy on the ground, cheap; expert archeological team - very expensive, not to mention Polish government issues. Besides I'd contemplate doing this for my own interest in the matter, I did not intend to change the world.
2. Who pays? If it's Uncle Brad, I'll be delighted.
Like revisionists in general Bradley Smith is a man of scarce means, you know that, but maybe Roberto could have Deborah Lipstadt and her associates in the industry finance a full scale archeological excavation? At least there's someone loaded with money.
Last edited by Snafu on 25 May 2002, 02:09, edited 1 time in total.

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#5

Post by Xanthro » 25 May 2002, 02:08

First, GPR is not something to toy with. It's not like a metal detector, you have to intepret the data.

Second, it's probably not the best to use in this instance.

GPR records difference in density of material. Grave dug in soil have a different density than the surrounding dirt. So usually GPR is good at finding where people have dug, and thus finding graves.

However, here we don't have a grave in the sense of a hole in the ground, we have a large area that has been dug up and cremated remains mixed with dirt, sand, and soil, then replaced. Plus, trees and grass have been growing on it for 50 years.

This is important, because the density of the soil will be the same, except where the pit walls are. To see a difference in density on the GPR, you'd have to cross of the outside pit wall, or pick up the bottom of the pit. Both of these would be hard to read.

Deniers probably picked GPR just for such a reason, because it's unlikely to find much.

A much easier, cheaper and reliable method would be to test the PH of the soil surrounding the area. The PH of the burial site will be different from the surrounding soil. This will let you see where the pit was very easily. The PH should still be affected after all these years.

Xanthro

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Snafu
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#6

Post by Snafu » 25 May 2002, 02:54

Hm, that sounds interesting. Yes I am aware of the complexities related to interpretation of data. GPR should rather be handled by experts all the way, I'm sure. Pit walls on the other hand was just one of those things I thought one should be looking for. Earlier today I also entertained the notion that one could actually recognize by GPR if the earthern layers had been disrupted and mixed up, which would be relevant to the possible mass graves at hand. However, after looking through some of the web sites on GPR I'm not so sure any longer.
Human remains should also make a distinct impact on the survey though, but now I fail to find the reference.
PH might be a much more practical solution (and cheaper not least)! But apart from differences with surrounding soil, how exact is the method? To what extent could changes in PH in the local environment depend on other factors for example? Would it tell us anything about volume and not just extent?
Two dimensions would go a long way nevertheless; this is very good input! Even if we won't make this mad trip, it's worthwhile to have these matters discussed I think.

Regards,
Snafu
Last edited by Snafu on 25 May 2002, 10:09, edited 2 times in total.

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#7

Post by Snafu » 25 May 2002, 03:16

To see a difference in density on the GPR, you'd have to cross of the outside pit wall, or pick up the bottom of the pit.
A detail. In the heavy clay soil which I expect is Poland, a GPR would be restricted as to depth, perhaps not reaching to the bottom of the pit. A serious limitation in such a case.

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Scott Smith
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PHYSICAL EVIDENCE...

#8

Post by Scott Smith » 25 May 2002, 09:22

Well, it is a good idea but funding would have to be arranged, and why would the "traditionalists" agree to participate in demonstrating what they "already know"?

Besides, unless the first GPR tests were botched somehow (and so far no report has been forthcoming, interestingly enough) little more could be learned from a second GPR examination than from the first.

What is really needed is a team of forensic archaeologists to start digging their trenches and laying their grids. However, without funding, what can be realistically expected is a few core-samples and "some" remains ultimately found, financed from some deep-pockets race-murder philanthropy. And then some useless mass-grave dimensions announced to the media, with the number of persons missing miraculously "acounted for" by working backwards from a preset conclusion--with nothing of substance ever published, of course.

Furthermore, there might be political hurdles to overcome in getting permission for the collection of empirical data at these holy shrines. This is good in the sense that it discourages the disturbance of evidence by amateurs. But basically, anywhere human remains are found it should be sifted with a fine-tooth comb to see what claims the physical evidence realistically supports.

In an intellectual climate where one can be prosecuted for doubting certain historical events and allegations, I am not too optimistic. I suppose with the right funding these hurdles could be overcome.

Curiosity is the enemy of conformity. Imagination is the enemy of dogmatism.
Xanthro wrote:Deniers probably picked GPR just for such a reason, because it's unlikely to find much.
Yeah, and if they used a thermometer to take the temperature it would be a "Nazi" thermometer, wouldn't it?

Decades after the war no testing and no published data except from the Communists. It's been HOW long since the Iron Curtain came down?
:wink:

You must not understand in order to be believe, Grasshopper.

To understand the Truth you must Believe.

Then will Understanding be yours.

:idea:

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Hans
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Re: I got a Suggestion!

#9

Post by Hans » 25 May 2002, 12:10

Snafu wrote: From there it's only very few (I think less than 3) kilometres south to the Treblinka II extermination site along the track of the branch line/siding ending at Treblinka III labour camp.
After a good meal and friendly dinner in Malkinia, where chivalric toasts and mutual congratulations to the success of the other are exchanged, we could trek down the road to begin the first day of investigations the following morning.
Hehe, sounds great. But since you "revisionists" do not acknowledge the existing and damning evidence for mass murder in Treblinka, Belzec, Sobobir and Auschwitz, I really do not believe that new evidence such as mass graves would lead to anything in your minds. Imagine Scott's comment: Yeah, it was war and the labour and transit camp Treblinka produced corpses died cause of Typhus and hunger. So what?

I recall the "revisionist" opinion on Auschwitz: Okay, Auschwitz had many crematoria, but these were hygenic measurements for fighting typhus. Okay, the crematoria had rooms with gas tight doors, but they were also gas shelters. Okay, they had "gassing cellars" and "gas chambers", but these were just delousing chambers for fighting the typhus. The Germans did everything to protect the life of their prisoners. Okay, a polish investigation has found ash and bones in the ground of Auschwitz, but these were just from typhus victims. Okay, air and ground photos show burning pits and mass graves. But what does that prove? Typhus!!!

What I'm saying is that the problem is not that there would be a lack of evidence for mass murder in the extermination camps. There is plenty of evidence. The problem is that "revisionists" will always be able to explain away the evidence with their weird standards. And they will explain away the possible mass graves in Treblinka.

regards, Hans
Last edited by Hans on 25 May 2002, 14:24, edited 1 time in total.

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#10

Post by Snafu » 25 May 2002, 12:50

Good post Scott!

Naturally, my suggestion had nothing to do with an official state founded investigation, requiring scholarly involvement from half of Europe. I just wanted to see the long look on Roberto's face (which I'm sure is a mutual expectation).
Yet speaking about VBD ("Very Big Dig"), it won't happen of course. Nobody is ready to throw away means to dig up what everybody thinks is the greatest stinkpile of decomposing material in Europe. There is simply enough of this gruesome stuff in the Balkans and other places in the world.
What is more, even suggesting an excavation meant to produce basic empirical proof, would only risk the impression of taking revisionism seriously, not to mention fear of betraying a lack of conviction. :mrgreen:
What conformist researcher today would like to be exposed as a believer in the phlogiston theory? There are powerful reflexes of self preservation involved here and because nobody knows how the gas chamber basements of Birkenau actually looked (or lack spatial ability to imagine them at work), I don't blame them.
"...under the impression of these five months of the proceedings, and especially under the impression of the testimony of the witness [former Auschwitz commandant] Höss, I cannot answer to my conscience to shift the responsibility for this solely on these low-level people. I never built a Jewish extermination camp or helped to bring one into existence. But if Adolf Hitler personally shifted this terrible responsibility onto his people, than it also applies to me. After all, we carried on this struggle against Jewry for years ... And therefore I have the duty to answer your question in this sense and in this context with yes. A thousand years will pass and this guilt of Germany will not be erased."

Hans Frank, governor of occupied Poland at Nürnberg
Maybe a dig will be carried out in a thousand years?
Last edited by Snafu on 25 May 2002, 18:01, edited 5 times in total.

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Scott Smith
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BIG STINKPILE!

#11

Post by Scott Smith » 25 May 2002, 13:42

Snafu wrote:Good post Scott!
Thanks!
Maybe a dig will be carried out in a thousand years?
Well, as long as somebody doesn't get out the bulldozers and build a theme-park, the evidence isn't going anywhere and will be a-waiting for the space aliens to have a look!
:aliengray

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Re: I got a Suggestion!

#12

Post by Scott Smith » 25 May 2002, 13:47

Hans wrote:The problem is that "revisionists" will always able to explain away the evidence with their weird standards. And they will explain away the possible mass graves in Treblinka.
Well, if the archaeology strongly supported hundreds of thousands of remains on this postage-stamp lot, then that would be rather difficult to explain away. I might even have to take Roberto's demographic B.S. seriously in that case!
:)

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Hans
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#13

Post by Hans » 25 May 2002, 14:43

Snafu wrote:because nobody knows how the gas chamber basements of Birkenau actually looked (or lack the spatial ability to imagine them at work), I don't blame them.
Really? We have the blueprints of the gas chambers, we know their equipment and where it was placed. So, as I see it, we know how they looked like, don't we?
I feel ready to draw a gas chamber for Rober' Faurisson! 8)

http://www.archiv.0catch.com/holocaust/ ... hacht.html

Gas chamber of crematorium III in Auschwitz Birkenau drawn by Sonderkommando David Olere

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#14

Post by Dan » 25 May 2002, 15:19

Hans, that was the most convincing proof I've ever seen of large scale homicidal gas chambers.

Thanks

Dan

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#15

Post by Hans » 25 May 2002, 19:35

Dan wrote:Hans, that was the most convincing proof I've ever seen of large scale homicidal gas chambers.

Thanks

Dan
Hi dan!

Nice to hear that from you. I agree with you that Olere's drawings, and this one in particular, appear to be the most powerfull testimony about homicidal gassing, though it is also true that there are many written and oral testimonies of witnesses who appear to be equally accurate and credible. Memory expressed as drawn picture and memory expressed as written testimony are obviously not the same?

best regards, Hans

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