I got a Suggestion!

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Dan
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#31

Post by Dan » 26 May 2002, 07:54

And why don't you tell us what you know about the Inquisition in terms of what it prohibited, and how its adoption and implementation compares to the duly passed laws of modern democracies?
Is this the question?

If so, I asked you to narrow it down. If not, please be specific.

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Scott Smith
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INQUISITION...

#32

Post by Scott Smith » 26 May 2002, 12:52

Charles wrote:And why don't you tell us what you know about the Inquisition in terms of what it prohibited, and how its adoption and implementation compares to the duly passed laws of modern democracies?
Typically, a Medieval Inquistion was invoked to root out "heresy" and witchcraft using due-process of law.

Although such tribunals used meticulous and almost modern methods at times, the bottom-line is that if the Church said you were a heretic you were; it was NOT amenable to proof. It was Thoughtcrime.

In the related cases of witchcraft it usually depended upon the number and credibility of your accusers and your connections within the community. High-profile and marginal persons were more vulnerable, and the degree of community panic or mass-hysteria was extremely important. Thus more vigilance is needed during famine or times of plague, for example. Who else but the Devil and those seduced by him would cause such things? Why would God permit this otherwise? Say, you are not having intercourse with the Devil are you? You don't look quite right.
:wink:

With respect to modern Thoughtcrimes laws, if you "Deny the Holocaust" you are guilty. The courts do not care about what you can or cannot prove to support your opinion. You "Deny," therefore you are guilty of the violating the statute. History by fiat.

Ah, but what is a Denier?
:mrgreen:

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Charles Bunch
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#33

Post by Charles Bunch » 26 May 2002, 22:14

Dan wrote:
And why don't you tell us what you know about the Inquisition in terms of what it prohibited, and how its adoption and implementation compares to the duly passed laws of modern democracies?
Is this the question?

If so, I asked you to narrow it down. If not, please be specific.
The question is quite clear.

You are the one who brought the Inquisition into the discussion.

Did you have a point?

Charles Bunch
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Re: INQUISITION...

#34

Post by Charles Bunch » 26 May 2002, 22:21

Scott Smith wrote:
Charles wrote:And why don't you tell us what you know about the Inquisition in terms of what it prohibited, and how its adoption and implementation compares to the duly passed laws of modern democracies?
Typically, a Medieval Inquistion was invoked to root out "heresy" and witchcraft using due-process of law.
There was no due process of law. There was no law. Only the unchallengeable authority of the Church whose views and powers did not derive from the governed, and against which there was no appeal based on individual rights.

The comparison of the Inquisition to democratically passed laws about denying history when it is deemed to encourage hate is about as moronic as the denier claim that the persecution of witches used methods similar to Holocaust history!

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Scott Smith
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Re: INQUISITION...

#35

Post by Scott Smith » 27 May 2002, 00:41

Charles Bunch wrote:There was no due process of law. There was no law. Only the unchallengeable authority of the Church whose views and powers did not derive from the governed, and against which there was no appeal based on individual rights.
There absolutely was legal procedure, usually quite meticulous in fact, and even an adversarial system for those who could afford an advocate. The Church, except in political cases like Galileo, usually took a neutral position with respect to the accused. And it was quite a democratic process in that the sentiments of the community usually prevailed, which was not so good for foreigners and unpopular people.

Of course, the issues themselves were not challengeable on the basis of fact. In other words, the court recognized that the Devil existed and that witchcraft was very, very BAD.

Does the accused, Charles Bunch, Deny the existence of the Devil and witchraft?

Yes.

Then you are a witch!

I mean, No. I am not a witch.

You have been duly accused. Prove to the court that you are not a witch.

Your Excellency, my humble client, an esteemed member of the community, has some accusations of his own...
:mrgreen:

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Erik
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#36

Post by Erik » 27 May 2002, 01:18

http://www.ideajournal.com/charny-denials.html

“…denials have shifted to a new extent to a battle over the academic establishment and in a sense over the epistemological process itself.
By complex decontextualization of historical events (-- there always were genocides so why get excited about a given one); by insidious questioning of established facts (-- we must wait for the research to give us further insights as to whether or not a genocidal event took place); by outright lies about references and sources; by contrived appeals to fairness and listening to the 'two sides' of academic 'controversy'; a new generation of revisionists is making new efforts to steal the truth and hold it captive from the eyes and decency of the human community.”

“We must create new means for fighting denials and deniers in academia, in the mainstream of public education, as well as in the mainstreams of the media. I have expressed the hope that we can establish a Commission to Combat Denials of the Holocaust, the Armenian Genocide and All Known Genocides. I envision such a Commission as consisting of representatives from a variety of academic disciplines, and also including applied specialists in public opinion polling, media professionals, advertising executives, and indeed popular folk-culture heroes and political leaders, and also ecumenical religious leaders, all brought together to develop a broad-based approach to insisting on the integrity and rationality of the historical truths of the major genocides that civilization is obligated to remember in humility and repentance.”
…………………………….


>It must be continually borne in mind also, and this is a fact which is very often slurred over and forgotten, that the heresies of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, to cope with which the tribunal of the Inquisition was primarily organized and regularized, were by no means mere theoretical speculations, which, however erroneous and dangerous in the fields of thought, practically and in action would have been arid and utterly unfruitful. To-day the word “heresy” seems to be as obsolete and as redolent of a Wardour-street vocabulary as if one were to talk of a game of cards at Crimp or Incertain, and to any save a dusty mediaevalist it would appear to be an antiquarian term. It was far other in the twelfth century; the wild fanatics who fostered the most subversive and abominable ideas aimed to put these into actual practice, to establish communities and to remodel whole territories according to the programme which they had so carefully considered in every detail with a view to obtaining and enforcing their own ends and their own interests. The heretics were just as resolute and just as practical, that is to say, just as determined to bring about the domination of their absolutism as is any revolutionary of to-day. The aim and objects of their leaders, Tanchelin, Everwacher, the Jew Manasses, Peter Waldo, Pierre Autier, Peter of Bruys, Arnold of Brescia, and the rest, were exactly those of Lenin, Trotsky, Zinoviev, and their fellows. There were, of course, minor differences and divergences in their tenets, that is to say, some had sufficient cunning to conceal and even to deny the extremer views which other were bold enough or mad enough more openly to proclaim. But just below the trappings, a little way beneath the surface, their motives, their methods, their intentions, the goal to which they pressed, were all the same. Their objects may be summed up as the abolition of monarchy, the abolition of private property and of inheritance, the abolition of marriage, the abolition of order, the total abolition of all religion. It was against this that the Inquisition had to fight, and who can be surprised if, when faced with so vast a conspiracy, the methods employed by the Holy Office may not seem - if the terrible conditions are conveniently forgotten - a little drastic, a little severe? There can be no doubt that had this most excellent tribunal continued to enjoy its full prerogative and the full exercise of its salutary powers, the world at large would be in a far happier and far more orderly position to-day. Historians may point out diversities and dissimilarities between the teaching of the Waldenses, the Albigenses, the Henricans, the Poor Men of Lyons, the Cathari, the Vaudois, the Bogomiles, and the Manichees, but they were in reality branches and variants of the same dark fraternity, just as the Third International, the Anarchists, the Nihilists, and the Bolsheviks are in every sense, save the mere label, entirely identical.<

>Although it may not be generally recognized, upon a close investigation it seems plain that the witches were a vast political movement, an organized society which was anti-social and anarchichal, a world-wide plot against civilization. Naturally, although the Masters were often individuals of high rank and deep learning, that rank and file of the society, that is to say, those who for the most part fell into the hands of justice, were recruited from the least educated classes, the ignorant and the poor. As one might suppose, many of the branches or covens in remoter districts knew nothing and perhaps could have understood nothing of the enormous system. Nevertheless, as small cogs in a very small wheel, it might be, they were carrying on the work and actively helping to spread the infection.<

http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/mm00c3.html




>It must also be noted that the crime of Witchcraft was not the only crime of which one could be accused during the Inquisition. By questioning any part of Catholic belief, one could be branded a heretic. Scientists were branded heretics by virtue of repudiating certain tenets of Christian belief (most notably Galileo, whose theories on the nature of planets and gravitational fields was initially branded heretical). Writers who challenged the Church were arrested for heresy (sometimes formerly accepted writers whose works had become unpopular). Anyone who questioned the validity of any part of Catholic belief did so at their own risk. The Malleus Maleficarum played an important role in bringing such Canonical law into being, as often the charge of heresy carried along with it suspicions of witchcraft.
It must be remembered that the Malleus is a work of its time. Science had only just begun to make any real advances. At that time nearly any unexplainable illness or malady would often be attributed to magic, and thus the activity of witches. It was a way for ordinary people to make sense of the world around them. The Malleus drew upon those beliefs, and, by its very existence, reinforced them and brought them into the codified belief system of the Catholic Church. In many ways, it could be said that it helped to validate the Inquisition itself.<

>The Malleus acquired especial weight and dignity from the famous Bull of Pope Innocent VIII, Summis desiderantes affectibus of 9 December, 1484, in which the Pontiff, lamenting the power and prevalence of the witch organization, delegates Heinrich Kramer and James Sprenger as inquisitors of these pravities throughout Northern Germany, particularly in the provinces and dioceses of Mainz, Cologne, Tréves, Salzburg, and Bremen, granting both and either of them an exceptional authorization, and by Letters Apostolic requiring the Bishop of Strasburg, Albrecht von Bayern (1478-1506), not only to take steps to publish and proclaim the Bull, but further to afford Kramer and Sprenger every assistance, even calling in, if necessary, the help of the secular arm.
This Bull, which was printed as the Preface to the Malleus, was thus, comments Dr. H.C. Lea, “spread broadcast over Europe”. In fact, “it fastened on European jurisprudence for nearly three centuries the duty of combating” the Society of Witches. The Malleus lay on the bench of every magistrate. It was the ultimate, irrefutable, unarguable authority. It was implicitly accepted not only by Catholic but by Protestant legislature. In fine, it is not too much to say that the Malleus Maleficarum is among the most important, wisest, and weightiest books of the world.<

http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/mm00b.html

Introductions from 1928 and 1948 : what would Prof Charny want to add?

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Roberto
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#37

Post by Roberto » 27 May 2002, 11:53

Snafu wrote:
1. Why fool around with a GPR? Why not hire an expert archaeological team for some exhaustive digging?

Well, we'd be all like that I'm sure. Yet my initial thought was, GPR - thingy on the ground, cheap; expert archeological team - very expensive, not to mention Polish government issues.
That may be so, but on the other hand it's the only chance you folks have to prove that you may have a point. If digging up the Treblinka burial site does not reveal traces of mass graves and human remains like the excavations at Belzec in 1997/98 did (for those interested: excerpts from the archaeological report on the Belzec excavations can be found online under the links

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... enza_II.98

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... enza_VI.98

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... lusions.98

and a discussion of these findings can be found on the threads

Belzec
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 2032073cfb

and

Belzec UNBOUND...
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 2032073cfb

of this forum), although archaeological experts agree that it should still be possible to identify such traces 60 years after the killings (assuming they do), you may argue that the documentary and eyewitness evidence proving the mass killings at Treblinka was manipulated.

The GPR method, on the other hand, is not likely to convince anyone (outside the ranks of you True Believers, that is) because it was used by a "Revisionist" propagandist who claims to have found no traces of soil disturbance at the Treblinka site, which in the face of the documentary and eyewitness evidence and the already existing assessment of the physical evidence by the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland indicates that either GPR is an unsuitable method or Mr. Krege desperately tried to avoid finding anything and thus limited his "ground study" to running around the big stone representing the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto or up and down his own backyard.
Snafu wrote:Besides I'd contemplate doing this for my own interest in the matter, I did not intend to change the world.
If you're interested in the matter, why don't you have a look at the documentary and eyewitness evidence and the assessment of the Treblinka burial site by the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland?
Snafu wrote:
2. Who pays? If it's Uncle Brad, I'll be delighted.

Like revisionists in general
Such as Willis Carto and the Liberty Lobby folks, right?
Snafu wrote:Bradley Smith is a man of scarce means, you know that,
I'm moved to tears. :lol:
Snafu wrote:but maybe Roberto could have Deborah Lipstadt and her associates in the industry finance a full scale archeological excavation? At least there's someone loaded with money.
That somebody, who I don't know and would probably never have heard of if it wasn't for our friend David Irving (who, incidentally, conceded that hundreds of thousands of people had been murdered at the Aktion Reinhard(t) camps during the lawsuit he brought against Lipstadt) is in no need to prove anything, because her point has already been proven beyond reasonable doubt by documentary evidence and by the depositions of defendants and witnesses before West German courts at the Treblinka trials that ended in 1965 and 1970. She can even count on previous assessments of the physical evidence which corroborate rather than contradict the documentary and eyewitness evidence:
There are also other traces. For example, in the north-eastern part, over a surface covering about 2 ha. (5 acres),
there are large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues.

As a result of an examination made by an expert it was found that ashes were the remains of burnt human bones. The examination of numerous human skulls found in the camp has shown that they bear no traces of external injuries. Within a radius of several hundred yards from the camp site an unpleasant smell of burnt ash and decay is noticeable, growing stronger as one approaches.
From the report by the Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes in Poland. Warsaw, 1946

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gcpoltreb1.htm
In the area where the gas chambers were supposed to have been located, the commission's team of 30 excavation workers reportedly found human remains, partially in the process of decay, and an unspecified amount of ash. Untouched sandy soil was reached at 7.5 meters, at which point the digging was halted. An accompanying photograph of an excavated pit reveals some large bones. (note 63)

Poland's Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes
reported that large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues, were found in the five acre (two hectare) burial area during an examination of the site shortly after the end of the war. (note 64)
The investigations by the Central Commission as referred to in an article by "Revionists" Mark Weber and Andrew Allen.

Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... linka.9605

Uncle Brad et al, on the other hand, are making the highly improbable assertion that the documentary evidence, the depositions of eyewitnesses and defendants at various trials and the assessment of the physical evidence by the Central Commission for the Investigation of German Crimes in Poland have been created or manipulated by some sinister and powerful conspiracy aimed at denigrating the German people in particular and Gentiles in general. So it's only fair that they should bear the burden of proof for this absurd assertion of theirs and shy no efforts and costs in their endeavor to demonstrate what they consider (or pretend to consider) to be the truth.

Besides finding evidence that otherwise accounts for the fate of the people who disappeared from the face of the earth behind the gates of the extermination camps, this includes providing substantial indications that the evidence on which historiography and criminal justice rely has been manipulated.

In what concerns alternative explanations for the fate of the deportees, they are not likely to find anything, and in regard to physical evidence the results of the Belzec excavations in 1997/98 suggest that they will be digging their own graves if they sponsor or co-sponsor an excavation on the Treblinka burial site by an impartial archaeological team with the required expertise.

If they should nevertheless be willing to try, I'll be glad to lend them a hand. :aliengray

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