Joachim Peiper and the Malmedy massacres again

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Prosper Vandenbroucke
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Re: Joachim Peiper and the Malmedy massacres again

Post by Prosper Vandenbroucke » 02 Jul 2013 11:56

redgemak wrote:The American propaganda set aside (I'm not a revisionist but not always see things from the victors poitnt of view) remember that none of the accused were senteced to death (a punishment appropriat for this crime).
They were all released from prison and one of them even became general of the panzertruppen in the bundeswehr (if he was a mass murderer he never would have been a general in the new army)...
Just my two-bits
PS for the people who can read Dutch see the work of Gerd J. Cuppens
"Massamoord in Malmedy ? Ardennen : 17 December 1944."
Jean
Sorry, but refered to the work of Cuppens (I have that book in french language) 43 german prisonners where sentenced to death at the Dachau Trial.
At the revision of that trial, only 12 where holded. Those 12 to death sentences are commuated into perpetuity on 14 september 1948. The last prisonner to be released is Peiper himself on 22 december 1956.
When you are referring to an SS ending in the Bundeswehr, maybe you are speaking about Werner Sternebeck(e).If it's him, he was sentenced to death at the first trial.
Sorry for my poor english
Regards
Prosper :wink:
Here below an extract from page 137 of Cuppen's work. (mort=sentenced to death)
numérisation0001.jpg
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redgemak
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Re: Joachim Peiper and the Malmedy massacres again

Post by redgemak » 02 Jul 2013 17:50

Prosper

yes indeed it was Werner Sternebeck, sorry not a general as I said but a leutenant colonel.
The majority of the soldiers sentenced to death by the first tribunal were but all released in 1948 WHY??
Because of false testimonies and hatred to the german soldier (understandable at that time) by the so called win
thnesses at that moment, a lot of hearsay and half truths.

I'm not saying that the SS soldiers were angels, but you've got to hear the poit of views from both sides.

Jean

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Re: Joachim Peiper and the Malmedy massacres again

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 02 Jul 2013 21:19

Hi Redgemak,
The American propaganda set aside (I'm not a revisionist but not always see things from the victors poitnt of view)
There isn't any American propaganda - unless you consider eyewitness testimony, perpetrator testimony and forensic evidence "propaganda"

Penn44 has brought up a good point - there were circa a dozen incidents of Kampgruppe Peiper troops killing American POWs and Belgian civilian between Dec 17-24th on their march route - so it is useful to see the incidents in a larger "crime spree" pattern.

Gerd Cuppen's work Massacre at Malmedy? is considered up there with Patrick Atge's biography of Peiper as pro-Nazi revisionist work.

Danny Parker's book Fatal Crossroads has a section devoted to the historiography (i.e. the "history of the history") of the Malmedy Massacre and he covers some of the research flaws in Cuppen's account.
The majority of the soldiers sentenced to death by the first tribunal were but all released in 1948 WHY??
Read

The Malmedy Massacre by John Bauserman

Crossroads of Death and A Peculiar Crusade by James Weingartner, the latter being a study of Peiper's main defense attorney.

As for a brief synopsis why, do a forum search.
Because of false testimonies and hatred to the german soldier (understandable at that time) by the so called win
thnesses at that moment, a lot of hearsay and half truths.
And what exactly are the hearsay and half truths that you are referring to?

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Re: Joachim Peiper and the Malmedy massacres again

Post by redgemak » 03 Jul 2013 10:46

We can go on this discussion for ever, there will be interpretations to everybodies choise.
What i'm saying is that the majority of the accused were sentenced to death (the right punishment for their crimes if they were guilty) but a few years later they were released (new testimonies? which were telling the truth now?)

PS:

Like I said before, I'm not a Neo Nazi or Revisionist but like they say 'The Spoils goes to the Victors'.

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Penn44
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Re: Joachim Peiper and the Malmedy massacres again

Post by Penn44 » 03 Jul 2013 11:40

redgemak wrote:We can go on this discussion for ever, there will be interpretations to everybodies choise.
Again, how can you account for the many separate incidents of murder throughout the 1st SS PD's area of operations during this relatively short period of time in mid- to late December 1944? The conclusion that a reasonable person reaches is that these murders are no coincidence, the represented as Rob described them a "crime spree."
redgemak wrote:What i'm saying is that the majority of the accused were sentenced to death (the right punishment for their crimes if they were guilty) but a few years later they were released (new testimonies? which were telling the truth now?).
Instead of making such a sweeping claim that you have can you give the forum some specific examples of new testimonies in which the accused were telling the truth?
redgemak wrote:PS: Like I said before, I'm not a Neo Nazi or Revisionist but like they say 'The Spoils goes to the Victors'.
You might not be a Neo Nazi, but you're appearing across as a "revisionist." One tell tale sign that draws attention to a revisionist is when the said person claims, "I'm not a revisionist, but ...." or when the person makes the classic claims "To the victor goes the spoils" or similar derivatives or claims that the victors get to write the histories.

Another statement I like to make, "If it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, then its a duck."

Penn44

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Re: Joachim Peiper and the Malmedy massacres again

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 03 Jul 2013 14:54

but a few years later they were released (new testimonies? which were telling the truth now?)
Again, please read up on the subject. There is no hidden agenda nor conspiracy theory as to why the sentences were eventually reduced and commuted.

Here is some information you might find interesting:

In 1946, as part of the judicial process, after the trial was concluded and the sentences handed out the trial proceedings went to Theater Commander General Lucius D. Clay for approval. Clay asked the defense counsel Lt. Col. Everett to prepare a petition for clemency. General Clay’s War Crimes Board of Review brought up issues of trial proceedings to his attention.

March 1948:
Attorney Dr. Rudolf Aschenauer (who unsuccessfully defended Otto Ohlendorf, commander of Einsatzgruppe D) becomes spokesman for 12 of the remaining Malmédy Massacre prisoners. Dr. Johanes Neuhäusler, a cleric famous for his former status as a Dachau Concentration Camp inmate, writes a letter to the US Congress about the Malmédy trial prisoners.

March 28, 1948
Clay announces the results of his review of the "Malmédy Massacre” trials:
12 of the 43 death sentences confirmed, including Peiper
27 of the death sentences reduced to imprisonment of various terms
In 4 death sentence cases, the charges are dismissed
Two of the 22 life sentences are confirmed
12 of the 22 life sentences are reduced
The remaining 8 life sentences are dismissed
Five of the 8 shorted prison sentences are confirmed
Two of the shorter prison sentences are reduced
One defendant remitted
A total of 13 Malmédy Massacre convicts are set free.

May 18, 1948
Lt. Col. Everett, now a civilian, files a writ of habeas corpus with the US Supreme Court on behalf of the Malmédy defendants, citing that the Malmédy trial was "utterly void” due to pre-trial irregularities. The Supreme Court turns down the writ, refusing to accept jurisdiction.

May 19, 1948
Everett meets with the Secretary of the Army, Kenneth C. Royall. Based on Everett’s presentation, Royall orders a stay of execution – executions which were supposed to begin the following day. Royall appoints a special commission to review the sentences again. The "Simpson Commission” comprises members of the Army JAG. Everett also attempts but fails to get the International Court of Justice at the Hague to review the case.

Sept 14, 1948
The Simpson commission issues its unanimous report on the Malmédy case. It criticizes some aspects of the prosecutions case, including the unethical practices of the prosecution in general and the mock trials in particular. It upholds the findings that those sentenced to death are indeed guilty of the crimes with which they have been convicted. The commission recommends commuting the death sentences to life imprisonment.

But then one of the Simpson Commission members, Judge Van Roden, breaks ranks and accuses the prosecution of gross misconduct. The issue becomes a political firestorm with charges of Antisemitism and pro-Communism slung back and forth.

The US Senate Armed Services Committee forms a subcommittee to investigate the Malmédy Massacre trial. This investigation quickly turned into another political imbroglio. Two of the committee senators have ties to the prosecution. The committee disagrees about whether to let the SS defendants take a lie-detector test. Senator Joe McCarthy resigns from the subcommittee, accusing the US Army of using "Gestapo or OGPU tactics”*

To cut this short, by Jan 1951 under the "McCloy Amnesty" the the six remaining sentences commuted to life imprisonment. In April 1952 only 13 convicted SS veterans are still in prison and of course the last - Peiper- is freed in 1956.

In summary, the reasons for the changes in sentencing over a 10 year period (by no means an unusual occurrence in any judicial system)

- Trial irregularities, particularly on the part of the prosecution
- The onset of the Cold War. SS as bad guys was tired. Commies as bad guys was Wired.
- Politicians like Judge Van Roden, Senator Joe McCarthy and West German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer making political hay out of the subject.

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Harro
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Re: Joachim Peiper and the Malmedy massacres again

Post by Harro » 03 Jul 2013 19:39

redgemak wrote:PS for the people who can read Dutch see the work of Gerd J. Cuppens
"Massamoord in Malmedy ? Ardennen : 17 December 1944."
An outdated and extremely one-sided book written from a pro-German point of view. Which does not necessarily mean that the late Gerd Cuppens was pro-SS but the veterans who cooperated certainly managed to steer him towards publishing the fabriacted stories favoured by the HIAG.

BTW...
redgemak wrote:remember that none of the accused were senteced to death
Not quite: 43 defendants were sentenced to death by hanging.

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Marcus
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Re: Joachim Peiper and the Malmedy massacres again

Post by Marcus » 04 Jul 2013 20:42

An off-topic post was split off into a new thread entitled "Why were not americans sentenced to death for killing POWs?" and a now unnecessary reply to it was removed.

/Marcus

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Penn44
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Re: Joachim Peiper and the Malmedy massacres again

Post by Penn44 » 05 Jul 2013 05:56

Double post.
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Re:

Post by Enekoitz » 18 Dec 2020 21:03

David Thompson wrote:
24 Sep 2003 18:17



(b) 50 captured American soldiers around Bullingen 17 Dec 1944
Concerning Bullingen, I cite a trusted expert from one of the Ardennes offensive groups:

'No proof whatsoever of shooting (killing) groups of US PoWs at Büllingen. Only few of the defendants were accused of events in Büllingen; one was extradited to France and was set free, others sentenced for their partipation at the crossroads, Preuss DID murder a US flyer for a ring and clothes (nothing to do with fueling tanks) at Büllingen and was sentenced to death. I heard stories that another wounded US soldier was murdered with a pistol-shot at the entrance of Büllingen, coming from Honsfeld but not mentioned at the trial. Finally, Katharina Thies, the wife of Anton Jonsten, wasn't killed by fire from German tanks but American artillery !!(Statement Anton Jonsten June 26, 1946). So, no murdering of US PoWs in Büllingen after refueling tanks. How could that be anyway? The opportunity for refueling tanks was only minutes as US artillery, coming from Elsenborn, plastered the village shortly after BG Peiper arrived at the town.'

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Re: Joachim Peiper and the Malmedy massacres again

Post by David Thompson » 19 Dec 2020 00:31

Enekoitz -- Since you have quoted the "trusted expert from one of the Ardennes offensive groups," please provide his name and the source of your quotation, because our forum rules require it:
1. Basic guidelines

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When quoting from a book or site, please provide info on the source (and a link if it is a website)
* * * * *
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Re: Joachim Peiper and the Malmedy massacres again

Post by Enekoitz » 20 Dec 2020 17:21

I'm sorry for a late response, I had to contact the author. It's Mr Mike Smeets who, to my knowledge, has been reseraching the related subject for several years already (https://battleofthebulge.org/2011/10/02 ... the-bulge/)
He published this one recently on the Battle of the Bulge 1944-1945 FB Group.

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Re: Joachim Peiper and the Malmedy massacres again

Post by Enekoitz » 20 Dec 2020 17:30

Please also note reference no. 66 in the Fatal Crossroads: The Untold Story of the Malmedy Massacre at the Battle of the Bulge by Danny. S. Parker.
'In In the official U.S. Army history, Hugh Cole (The Ardennes: Battle of the Bulge, OCMH, 1965) claimed, “Irrefutable
evidence shows that nineteen unarmed Americans were shot down in Honsfeld and fifty at Büllingen.” The author’s own
detailed investigation of the action showed that although Cole’s figure is inflated, surrendered American soldiers were
murdered in Honsfeld. Although isolated soldiers may have been shot in Büllingen, there was nothing close to the number
Cole mentioned.'.

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Re: Joachim Peiper and the Malmedy massacres again

Post by David Thompson » 20 Dec 2020 22:01

Thanks for the references, Enekoitz.

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