Can anyone help me with this

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schroedinger
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#46

Post by schroedinger » 20 Jun 2002, 12:41

Roberto wrote: Considering the amounts that have been paid to the state of Israel, rather than to individual claimants under the BEG, (ca. 3.5 billion vs. more than 70 billion German Marks, if I well remember), such assertions are just idiotic.
This is basically correct. A breakdown of all payments as of December 31, 2000 is provided in the German Ministry of Finance PDF brochure I have already cited; see page 48:

3,45 billion DM were paid to Israel according to the Luxemburg Agreement while 82 billion DM were paid according to the Bundesentschädigungsgesetz. The total of all payments is about some 114 billion DM (including the 3.45 billion of the Luxemburg Agreement).

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Page Size?

#47

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Jun 2002, 01:42

Why is this page formatted so wide? It don't see any oversize images or anything like that. Just Curious.
:)


Mensch Meyer
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#48

Post by Mensch Meyer » 21 Jun 2002, 04:17

schroedinger wrote:
Roberto wrote: Considering the amounts that have been paid to the state of Israel, rather than to individual claimants under the BEG, (ca. 3.5 billion vs. more than 70 billion German Marks, if I well remember), such assertions are just idiotic.
This is basically correct. A breakdown of all payments as of December 31, 2000 is provided in the German Ministry of Finance PDF brochure I have already cited; see page 48:

3,45 billion DM were paid to Israel according to the Luxemburg Agreement while 82 billion DM were paid according to the Bundesentschädigungsgesetz. The total of all payments is about some 114 billion DM (including the 3.45 billion of the Luxemburg Agreement).
In your note I find no rebuttal of my statements concerning the original Luxemburg Agreement ob 1952, German people's payment - during a time of their own total economic destruction - to the newly created Jewish State and the subsequent figures that deal with the Wiedergutmachungsgesetz of the Federal Republic's BASIC LAW.

What you have omitted however are the various on-going "financial partnerships" between Germany's industries, educational Institutions and Israel, nor is there any mentioning of the most recent "GERMAN DONATION" to Israel of 2 Dolphin submarines ($380 Million per each.)

I don't need to argue my point that Israel has abused and degraded Jewish victims through the actions of a handful of powerful Jews driven by repugnant greed, such as Stewart Eizenstat - Assistant Secretary of State; the Novelist Elie Wiesel, who travels in a limousine to his $75.000 speaking engagements, Edgar Bronfman and a handful of senators, among them D'Amato whose office brought even our elected government into the fray to set ultimatums agains German corporations, in behalf of an ethnic minority.

None of these latest monetary demands during the late 1990s, directed against German corportations and industries mentions that they had been completely levelled to rubble during bombing raids of WWII, just as insurance companies, whose assets had been erased by the collapse of the Nazi economy, therefore had assets to transfer through the post-war German currency reforms of 1948. This meant that NOBODY, not just Jewish victims, had lost benefits of insurance and pension.

Wiedergutmachung, Restitutions no longer deserve respectability after New York lawyers began to blackmail German (and Swiss!) citizens and corporations through lawsuits and threats of world-wide boycott, (the same MO as World Jewry did against the Nazis in 1933.) In addition, drawing on a wide range of official sources, Finkelstein has uncovered a litany of lies and deceptions, that the media has concealed for decades.

He exposed that the number of actual survivors has been wildly inflated, that bogus survivors have published fraudulent memoirs to international acclaim, and, that during the recent tussle over Jewish assets held in Swiss banks, the head of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in the United States levelled the outrageous charge, one contradicted by the historical record, that Switzerland had interned Jewish refugees in slave labour camps during the war!!!

These are the reason that the lofty holocaust - SIX MILLION guardians have lost credibility and the respect of the world community. In addition, Nazism's numerous non-Jewish victims are being airbrushed out of commemorations of the Holocaust.

And so too are the other episodes of genocide that stained the twentieth century; they have been deminished merely to monopolize the Jewish victimhood. As Finkelstein so courageously observes, a few more years of this and it will no longer be possible to distinguish between Holocaust commemoration and Holocaust denial.

Finkelstein points the finger at the self-appointed custodians of the holocaust, his characterization of present-day American-Jewish elites as morally equivalent to those European-Jewish leaders who collaborated with the Nazis is revealing.

Finally, his book, what he sees as a Holocaust restitution conspiracy, is being read all over the world - from Honkong to Spain, and he leaves an important message to new generations...

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Re: Page Size?

#49

Post by Mensch Meyer » 21 Jun 2002, 04:26

Scott Smith wrote:Why is this page formatted so wide? It don't see any oversize images or anything like that. Just Curious.
:)
It's unpleasant, I wondered whether somebody wants us to go away... :lol:

I'm glad you mentioned it though, I thought it was only MY screen...

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Roberto
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#50

Post by Roberto » 21 Jun 2002, 11:47

Mensch Meyer wrote:
schroedinger wrote:
Roberto wrote: Considering the amounts that have been paid to the state of Israel, rather than to individual claimants under the BEG, (ca. 3.5 billion vs. more than 70 billion German Marks, if I well remember), such assertions are just idiotic.
This is basically correct. A breakdown of all payments as of December 31, 2000 is provided in the German Ministry of Finance PDF brochure I have already cited; see page 48:

3,45 billion DM were paid to Israel according to the Luxemburg Agreement while 82 billion DM were paid according to the Bundesentschädigungsgesetz. The total of all payments is about some 114 billion DM (including the 3.45 billion of the Luxemburg Agreement).
In your note I find no rebuttal of my statements concerning the original Luxemburg Agreement ob 1952, German people's payment - during a time of their own total economic destruction - to the newly created Jewish State and the subsequent figures that deal with the Wiedergutmachungsgesetz of the Federal Republic's BASIC LAW.

What you have omitted however are the various on-going "financial partnerships" between Germany's industries, educational Institutions and Israel, nor is there any mentioning of the most recent "GERMAN DONATION" to Israel of 2 Dolphin submarines ($380 Million per each.)

I don't need to argue my point that Israel has abused and degraded Jewish victims through the actions of a handful of powerful Jews driven by repugnant greed, such as Stewart Eizenstat - Assistant Secretary of State; the Novelist Elie Wiesel, who travels in a limousine to his $75.000 speaking engagements, Edgar Bronfman and a handful of senators, among them D'Amato whose office brought even our elected government into the fray to set ultimatums agains German corporations, in behalf of an ethnic minority.

None of these latest monetary demands during the late 1990s, directed against German corportations and industries mentions that they had been completely levelled to rubble during bombing raids of WWII, just as insurance companies, whose assets had been erased by the collapse of the Nazi economy, therefore had assets to transfer through the post-war German currency reforms of 1948. This meant that NOBODY, not just Jewish victims, had lost benefits of insurance and pension.

Wiedergutmachung, Restitutions no longer deserve respectability after New York lawyers began to blackmail German (and Swiss!) citizens and corporations through lawsuits and threats of world-wide boycott, (the same MO as World Jewry did against the Nazis in 1933.) In addition, drawing on a wide range of official sources, Finkelstein has uncovered a litany of lies and deceptions, that the media has concealed for decades.

He exposed that the number of actual survivors has been wildly inflated, that bogus survivors have published fraudulent memoirs to international acclaim, and, that during the recent tussle over Jewish assets held in Swiss banks, the head of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in the United States levelled the outrageous charge, one contradicted by the historical record, that Switzerland had interned Jewish refugees in slave labour camps during the war!!!

These are the reason that the lofty holocaust - SIX MILLION guardians have lost credibility and the respect of the world community. In addition, Nazism's numerous non-Jewish victims are being airbrushed out of commemorations of the Holocaust.

And so too are the other episodes of genocide that stained the twentieth century; they have been deminished merely to monopolize the Jewish victimhood. As Finkelstein so courageously observes, a few more years of this and it will no longer be possible to distinguish between Holocaust commemoration and Holocaust denial.

Finkelstein points the finger at the self-appointed custodians of the holocaust, his characterization of present-day American-Jewish elites as morally equivalent to those European-Jewish leaders who collaborated with the Nazis is revealing.

Finally, his book, what he sees as a Holocaust restitution conspiracy, is being read all over the world - from Honkong to Spain, and he leaves an important message to new generations...
Blah, blah, blah.

Shown that his lecture about Germany being the "cash cow of the Jewish state" is a sack full of cattle manure, Meyer desperately pulls Finkelstein, the anti-Semites' poster pamphletist, out of the pocket.

It's not as if present-day Jewish attitudes to the Nazi genocide didn't warrant criticism. But such criticism should consist not of hollow polemics, but of a throrough and objective analysis. Such as Peter Novick's The Holocaust in American Life:
In the first decades following World War II, Americans rarely discussed the Holocaust. Now, remembering the Holocaust has become a fundamental part of Jewish identity; gentiles, too, view the Holocaust as a touchstone of moral solemnity. In The Holocaust and American Life, Peter Novick asks why, and his answers are both sensible and shocking. He explains the immediate postwar silence about the Holocaust by reviewing the basics of cold war politics: just after the liberation of the concentration camps, Americans were called upon to sympathize with "gallant Berliners" who resisted the Soviets and built a wall against Communism--an "enormous shift from one set of alignments to another," Novick notes. Novick then leads readers through the series of events that brought the Holocaust to the forefront of American consciousness--the trial of Adolph Eichmann, the Six-Day War, the Carter administration's Israel policy, and the construction of the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C.

Among Novick's most controversial ideas is his assertion that American Jews spoke softly of the Holocaust at first because they didn't want to be seen as victims; later, Jews decided that victim status would work in their best political interest. Or, as Novick puts it, "Jews were intent on permanent possession of the gold medal in the Victimization Olympics." The Holocaust in American Life is as carefully researched and argued as it is polemical and probing. Novick does not suffer Holocaust deniers lightly, and he is empathic toward victims and survivors, but he has no tolerance for false sentiment. One wishes that more people would ask, as Novick does, what kind of a country would spend millions of dollars on a museum honoring European Jewish Holocaust victims instead of a monument to its own shameful history of black slavery.
Source of quote:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 86-3511907

schroedinger
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#51

Post by schroedinger » 21 Jun 2002, 11:49

Mensch Meyer wrote:
schroedinger wrote:
Roberto wrote: Considering the amounts that have been paid to the state of Israel, rather than to individual claimants under the BEG, (ca. 3.5 billion vs. more than 70 billion German Marks, if I well remember), such assertions are just idiotic.
This is basically correct. A breakdown of all payments as of December 31, 2000 is provided in the German Ministry of Finance PDF brochure I have already cited; see page 48:

3,45 billion DM were paid to Israel according to the Luxemburg Agreement while 82 billion DM were paid according to the Bundesentschädigungsgesetz. The total of all payments is about some 114 billion DM (including the 3.45 billion of the Luxemburg Agreement).
In your note I find no rebuttal of my statements concerning the original Luxemburg Agreement ob 1952, German people's payment - during a time of their own total economic destruction - to the newly created Jewish State and the subsequent figures that deal with the Wiedergutmachungsgesetz of the Federal Republic's BASIC LAW.
I'm not sure what you mean regarding the Luxemburg Agreement. It should be known that this agreement covered two topics:
- restitution of Jewish property stolen by the Nazis where the legal owners had been killed
- integration costs of Jewish refugees and "displaced persons" into Israeli society

On March 12, 1951 the government of Israel had written in a diplomatic note to the four Allies regarding indemnification:
Keine Schadensersatzzahlung kann die zerstörten menschlichen Leben und kulturellen Werte gutmachen oder die Folterungen und Leiden der Männer, Frauen und Kinder abzahlen, die durch alle nur erdenklichen Mittel einer viehischen Einbildungskraft getötet worden sind. Die Toten können nicht wieder zum Leben gebracht werden. Ihre Leiden können nicht ausgelöscht werden. Was man aber verlangen kann, ist, daß das deutsche Volk aufgefordert wird, das gestohlene jüdische Eigentum zurückzuerstatten und die Kosten der Wiedereingliederung der Überlebenden zu tragen.
http://www.bpb.de/info-franzis/html/body_i_247_4.html


No indemnification is able to restitute destroyed human lives and cultural valuables or pay off the tortures and sufferings of the men, women and children who have been killed by all means of a beastly imagination. The dead can't be brought back to life. Their sufferings can't be extinguished. Alas, what can be demanded is that the German people are requested to restitute stolen Jewish property and to cover the costs of re-integration of the survivors.
(my translation)

Some two thirds of the 3.45 billion DM sum were transferred as shipments of goods (eg. industrial machinery), stretched over 12 years. Thus it wasn't quite a time of "total economic destruction" but of the "Wirtschaftswunder", the economical resurrection of West Germany.

Regarding the other issue, there is no such thing as a "Wiedergutmachungsgesetz of the Federal Republic's BASIC LAW". Please be more specific about what you mean.
Mensch Meyer wrote: What you have omitted however are the various on-going "financial partnerships" between Germany's industries, educational Institutions and Israel, nor is there any mentioning of the most recent "GERMAN DONATION" to Israel of 2 Dolphin submarines ($380 Million per each.)
As I have understood the topic of this discussion, it is about indemnifications, compensations and restitutions for crimes committed by the National Socialist regime, but not about economical and cultural relations between Germany and Israel. Germany maintains such relations with many nations in the world, so I neither see the point of it nor do I understand what this would have to do with the general issue of this forum (Holocaust and Warcrimes).

I'm sorry, but the rest of your post is just some propagandizing drivel, so I won't comment on it.

Mensch Meyer
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#52

Post by Mensch Meyer » 22 Jun 2002, 01:58

Let's review facts concerning German restitutions, taken from reliable sources instead of your obfuscations:

GERMAN EMBASSY in Israel:

http://www.germanemb.org.il/affairs/bil ... ations.htm

Bilateral Relations in the Legal Field

"The first bilateral agreement between Israel and Germany was signed by Federal Chancellor Konrad Adenauer and the then Israeli Foreign Minister and later Prime Minister Moshe Sharet on 10 September 1952 in Luxemburg. This was only seven years after the end of the war and the Nazi regime that brought unmeasurable suffering upon the Jewish people and 13 years before the establishment of diplomatic relations.

This first agreement was of course about German reparations. Germany - still struggling to recover from its almost total destruction after the war - pledged to pay 3.45 billion DM over a period of 11 years. (German reparations to Israel in the meantime have amounted to some $30 billion DM)." ( MM: TO ISRAEL - not to other WWII nazi victims - as your stooge, Roberto, tries to diverge.)

(contd)" This was a concrete German gesture to alleviate the consequences of the immense suffering caused to the Jewish people and to support the newly established Israeli State. It was the first step towards rebuilding the shattered relationship between Germans and Jews and an expression of Germany’s historical responsibility (MM: responsibility ??? - ) for the Jewish people and Israel." (MM: In the meantime you may add to the restitutions two Dolphin submarines, worth $700 millions, that the German cash cow "DONATED" only recently to Israel - not to mention other toys that flow from Germany via diverse "partnerships".)

And I REITERATE my earlier statement: GERMANS are the first in all history to commit themselves to restitutions for past injustice. For this reason MODERN Germans can hold their head high among the rest of the World Community - as no other people. And the continuing German-Bashing by the Jewish Media and Hollywood is racist, greedy, exploitive, $elfserving and repugnant!

schroedinger
In the first decades following World War II, Americans rarely discussed the Holocaust.
...Because they would have been the only ones in the world. In fact Europeans were the last to undergo Holocaust "teachings" - the copyright was in the USA.

Considering their own millions of losses through airraids, the destruction of their cities, schools, museums, bridges, libraries, landmarks, universities, hospitals, and following the forced displacement of 15 million of their own people, millions of their own missing and dead, loved ones who had fought the bolsheviks from overrunning all of Europe in a war against Stalin and his gulag system, the violence Europeans had suffered themselves, compounded by famine - in 1945 Jewish Nazi victims were of no interest to them.-

Besides, nobody even knew the word "HOLOCAUST" at the time nor what it was -- until Elie Wiesel, the novelist, coined the term "holocaust" in his book "NIGHT." It took a few years to get the wheels rolling, to write the books, to assemble the material, to build mandatory school curricula, to "teach" the Holocaust - at first only in American schools however, and to get Hollywood into gear to crank out docu-drama$. Finally by the late 70s the "holocaust" snowballed. However, still only in the US and only in parts of Western Europe. That's why Bronfman had a tissy and was quite upset when the Berlin Wall came down so suddenly. He scrambled to call an emergency meeting of the World Jewish Congress - gathered in Berlin to put into gear immediately the neccessary education of the Holocaust for East German schools, to get the unwashed, the uninitiated masses that had languished for generations behind the Iron Curtain, caught up on Western Holocaust Culture. After all, East Germans had not yet paid restitutions to Holocaust victims,(45 years later!) and the West Germans had to immediately re-new their pledge of restitutions, this time also in behalf of East Germans, who lacked the sheckels to catch up ...

Those who read international press during those days watched the scramble with considerable "interest."

[schroedinger]
Now, remembering the Holocaust has become a fundamental part of Jewish identity; gentiles, too, view the Holocaust as a touchstone of moral solemnity.


This has got to be the most outrageously arrogant presumption. It is Two Thousand Years of Christianity, ie Western Civilization that set the moral standards of civilized man, NOT "Jewish Identity" nor the crimes of a holocaust!

[schroedinger]
In The Holocaust and American Life, Peter Novick asks why, and his answers are both sensible and shocking. He explains the immediate postwar silence about the Holocaust by reviewing the basics of cold war politics: just after the liberation of the concentration camps, Americans were called upon to sympathize with "gallant Berliners" who resisted the Soviets and built a wall against Communism--an "enormous shift from one set of alignments to another," Novick notes. Novick then leads readers through the series of events that brought the Holocaust to the forefront of American consciousness--the trial of Adolph Eichmann, the Six-Day War, the Carter administration's Israel policy, and the construction of the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C.

Among Novick's most controversial ideas is his assertion that American Jews spoke softly of the Holocaust at first because they didn't want to be seen as victims; later, Jews decided that victim status would work in their best political interest. Or, as Novick puts it, "Jews were intent on permanent possession of the gold medal in the Victimization Olympics." The Holocaust in American Life is as carefully researched and argued as it is polemical and probing. Novick does not suffer Holocaust deniers lightly, and he is empathic toward victims and survivors, but he has no tolerance for false sentiment. One wishes that more people would ask, as Novick does, what kind of a country would spend millions of dollars on a museum honoring European Jewish Holocaust victims instead of a monument to its own shameful history of black slavery.
Yeah I know all that, and I already explained the "silence" (above ).-

As to the million dollar Holocaust museum, I consider such a landmark an obscene violation of the sovereignty of our capital, Washington DC, and an insult to our taxpayers ($167 Million!) After all, the holocaust happened in a foreign country and the museum commemorates a crime perpetrated by foreigners upon another groups of foreigners. There is NO connection with American history nor American society what's so ever!

The rest of your note is just some more of the same holocaust propaganda - "blah blah blah...."

And I REITERATE my earlier statement: Modern GERMANS are the first in all history to commit themselves to restitutions for past injustices. For this reason new generations of Germans can hold their head high among the rest of the World Community as no other people. And the conitinuing German Bashing by the Jewish Media and Hollywood is racist, greedy, exploitive, $elfserving and repugnant!

Concerning German reparations, let me close with comments by Nahum Goldman, former President of the World Jewish Congress:

"These reparations constitute an extraordinary innovation in terms of international law. Until then, when a country lost a war, it paid damages to the victor, but it was a matter between states, between governments. Now for the first time a nation was to give reparations either to ordinary individuals or to Israel, which did not legally exist at the time of Hitler's crimes.

PS: Roberto, ask your headquarters to up-date your blather, your denial that the State of Israel profiteers from the tragedy of holocaust victims !)

cobalt
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#53

Post by cobalt » 22 Jun 2002, 04:09

Mr. Roberto has indicated that the amount of restitution paid by the Germans is inadequate and should be increase and then went on to say that his "heart bleeds for the German taxpayer" for the increased tax load. My first question would be: Why should people who had no part in the holocaust and were not even alive at the time be required to pay for it? He also remarked that he is proud to be of German nationality. Thus my second question: Would he be proud enough to contribute his part of the more adequate restitutions set by him as a form of moral obligation?

schroedinger
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#54

Post by schroedinger » 22 Jun 2002, 19:59

Mensch Meyer wrote:Let's review facts concerning German restitutions, taken from reliable sources instead of your obfuscations:

GERMAN EMBASSY in Israel:

http://www.germanemb.org.il/affairs/bil ... ations.htm

Bilateral Relations in the Legal Field
These explanations are wholly based on the facts and figures which are contained in the overview of the German Ministry of Finance; I have posted the URL to this booklet here before:
http://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/A ... nrecht.pdf

I don't understand why you apparently don't trust the Ministry and call it's publication an "obfuscation"; as the instance in charge for these matters it's publication should be taken as authoritative.

Furthermore the web page of the German embassy in Israel contains the same information as the Ministry's publication while not as exhaustive as the latter one.
Mensch Meyer wrote: And I REITERATE my earlier statement: GERMANS are the first in all history to commit themselves to restitutions for past injustice. For this reason MODERN Germans can hold their head high among the rest of the World Community - as no other people.
I'll take that in consideration the next time when I have to ask myself how to hold my head.

The following quotes were falsely attributed to me; I believe the text was posted by Roberto. Please be more careful with your quoting.
Mensch Meyer wrote: schroedinger
In the first decades following World War II, Americans rarely discussed the Holocaust.
Mensch Meyer wrote: As to the million dollar Holocaust museum, I consider such a landmark an obscene violation of the sovereignty of our capital, Washington DC, and an insult to our taxpayers ($167 Million!) After all, the holocaust happened in a foreign country and the museum commemorates a crime perpetrated by foreigners upon another groups of foreigners. There is NO connection with American history nor American society what's so ever!
If the Holocaust has such a minor meaning to you as an American I wonder why you put so much effort in your task to defend Germans against the alleged Jewish greed. After all it's just something "perpetrated by foreigners upon another groups of foreigners", isn't it?

May I ask you about your motivation to elaborate on these issues and to use such strong and polemical verbiage?
Mensch Meyer wrote: Concerning German reparations, let me close with comments by Nahum Goldman, former President of the World Jewish Congress:

"These reparations constitute an extraordinary innovation in terms of international law. Until then, when a country lost a war, it paid damages to the victor, but it was a matter between states, between governments. Now for the first time a nation was to give reparations either to ordinary individuals or to Israel, which did not legally exist at the time of Hitler's crimes.
Yes, this is a remarkable innovation in international law.

Both forms of payments were related to the crimes perpetrated by the Third Reich; indemnifications paid to individuals were meant to make sure that the payment would reach the damaged persons (this goal wasn't achieved in every case when East European governments were involved during the Cold War) while payments to the State of Israel were meant for building up the infrastructure needed for integration of survivors and displaced persons who chose the newly founded State of Israel as their residence into Israeli society.

Mensch Meyer
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#55

Post by Mensch Meyer » 23 Jun 2002, 04:24

[quote="schroedinger
Regarding the other issue, there is no such thing as a "Wiedergutmachungsgesetz of the Federal Republic's BASIC LAW". Please be more specific about what you mean.
It is absurd to dismiss this law as non-existent! After all, the "Wiedergutmachungsgesetz" was the FIRST Bundestags Law that facitilated restitution to Jewish Nazi victims in the Luxemburg Agreement -- referred to as BEG.

ARTICLE: "Entschädigung und Wiedergutmachung für NS-Verfolgte: endlich Gerechtigkeit schaffen!"

Gesetzgebungsprioritäten während der ersten Legislaturperiode 1949 bis 1953 zeugen in Sachen Wiedergutmachung von wenig überzeugendem und überzeugtem Engagement der Mehrheit des Bundestages -------- wurde das erste Wiedergutmachungsgesetz (BEG) beschlossen.

Es galt und gilt nur für rassisch, politisch oder religiös Verfolgte - schließt also alle anderen Opfergruppen aus... auch blieben die NS-Opfer in osteuropäischen Staaten von jeder individuellen oder zwischenstaatlichen Wiedergutmachung ausgeschlossen.....
Welche Bilanz können wir ziehen?

"Auf den ersten Blick sind die erwähnten 93 Milliarden DM ein beträchtlicher Betrag. Wenn man aber den zweiten Blick auf die Anzahl der nach dem BEG Berechtigten richtet, (which to that point were Jewish only!) erkennt man, daß von wirklich großzügigen Wiedergutmachungsleistungen nicht die Rede sein kann.

4,5 Millionen Anträge wurden nach dem BEG gestellt, davon nur etwa die Hälfte anerkannt. Umgerechnet ergibt das pro Kopf etwa 20 000 DM. Gemessen an den Verlusten, Leiden, Schäden und Entbehrungen der Opfer - weiß Gott! - kein exorbitanter Betrag. Ich zitiere einen Sachverständigen während der Anhörung vom 24. Juni 1987..."

MM: I reiterate: at the time the "4,5 Millionen Anträge wurden nach dem BEG gestellt" -- and contrary to Roberto's claims, I stand by my earlier comment - that these applications were limited to Jews, because provisions for non-Jews had not yet been enacted. Hence the demographics concerning pre-1938 Jewish population in Europe pose an embarrassing problem if you add the (orthodox number of) SIX MILLION holocaust victims to the 4,5 Millionen applicants/survivors, AND then add Jews in the former Soviet-controlled areas who before 1990 had not yet had an opportunity to apply for WIEDERGUTMACHUNG/restitutions, PLUS when you add another two million (EUROPEAN JEWS) who escaped to various safe countries before the Holocaust.

Anyway the Wiedergutmachungsgesetz (BEG) was the FIRST Bundestag Legislation that dealt with JEWISH nazi victims.

http://www.dtv.de/bestand/24254_lese.htm
-------------------------------------------------------

Here are some more samples of the "LAW"

18.03.1953 Bundestag verabschiedet mit großer Mehrheit das deutsch-israelische Wiedergutmachungsgesetz.

http://hauptschule-wipperfuerth.de/1953.html

-----------------------------------------------
Another, this one our elected government gets involved in behalf of Jews in East Europe, who had been left out of the previous "WIEDERGUTMACHUNGGESETZ"!:

September 30, 1996 Washington, DC – Sixteen congressional Members of the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe today introduced identical resolutions in the House and Senate addressing the problem of property claims stemming from Fascist and Communist era confiscations. In particular, the resolutions... etc:

(At the bottome of this tract is the German text, again citing the term WIEDERGUTMACHUNGSGESETZ

http://www.mitteleuropa.de/ksze19960930.htm

---------------------------------------------------------------
Another case :
WIEDERGUTMACHUNG IN DER DDR Constantin Goschler

Paternalismus und Verweigerung - Die DDR und die Wiedergutmachung für jüdische Verfolgte des Nationalsozialismus Thomas Schüler

Das Wiedergutmachungsgesetz vom 14. September 1945 in Thürigen

http://www.tu-berlin.de/~zfa/publikation/jahrbuch.htm

------------------------------------------------

Vorgänge - Rassismus

Zwangsarbeit und Entschädigung oder: die Realität moralischer Verantwortung

Ausgeschlossen, weil eingeschlossen - der Fall Alfred Kantorowicz:

Auch Kommunisten, die nicht mehr als Kommunisten galten, wurden nach diesem Schema abgewiesen. Der Jude, Kommunist, Spanienkämpfer und Schriftsteller Alfred Kantorowicz war im Pétain'schen Frankreich interniert. 1941 konnte er in die USA fliehen. 1947 kehrte er nach Berlin (Ost) zurück, wo er zweieinhalb Jahre die Zeitschrift "Ost und West" heraus gab. Nach dem Ungarn-Desaster 1956 überwarf sich der Literaturprofessor mit der offiziellen Lehrmeinung, was ihm Job und Pensionsanspruch kostete. Er floh in den Westen, wo ihm der westdeutsche Staat in Gestalt des Bayrischen Landesentschädigungsamtes (BLEA) die Entschädigung als unter den Nazis politisch Verfolgtem verweigerte. Er habe der "Unmenschlichkeit Vorschub geleistet", weshalb ihn das BLEA auch nicht als in der DDR Verfolgten anerkannte - was das Amt bei Nicht-Kommunisten, Nicht-Spanienkämpfern und Nicht-Juden recht gern tat. Erst die Stadt Hamburg zahlte ihm ab 1961 eine Gnadenrente von monatlich 500 DM. Er starb 1979 als bettelarmer Mann.15

http://www.dir-info.de/dokumente/vor_wi ... hung.shtml

-------------------------------------------

I hope this gives you some insight in the WIEDERGUTMACHUNGSGESETZT --[BEG] - it's the FIRST Bundestags Law that facitilated restitution to Jewish victims of Nazi crimes.

schroedinger
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#56

Post by schroedinger » 23 Jun 2002, 15:42

Mensch Meyer wrote:
schroedinger wrote: Regarding the other issue, there is no such thing as a "Wiedergutmachungsgesetz of the Federal Republic's BASIC LAW". Please be more specific about what you mean.
It is absurd to dismiss this law as non-existent! After all, the "Wiedergutmachungsgesetz" was the FIRST Bundestags Law that facitilated restitution to Jewish Nazi victims in the Luxemburg Agreement -- referred to as BEG.
You really aren't familiar with German restitutions, aren't you?

First: the "Basic Law" (Grundgesetz) is functionally the German constitution although it is not called a constitution. Other written laws like the BEG are not part of the Grundgesetz.

Second: There is no law called "Wiedergutmachungsgesetz". What you are referring to is the "Bundesentschädigungsgesetz" (BEG) from 1956 with a predecessor called "Bundesergänzungsgesetz" from 1953. When in newspapers or other sources it is spoken about a "Wiedergutmachungsgesetz" this term is just a colloqialism; sometimes the plural "Wiedergutmachungsgesetze" is used as a general term for all legal measures regarding indemnification.

Third: you are confusing the Luxemburg Agreement with the BEG. The former resulted in a payment of 3.45 billion DM to the state of Israel meant for building up the infrastructure needed for integration of survivors and displaced persons who chose the newly founded State of Israel as their residence into Israeli society. The latter was independent from the Luxemburg Agreement; it regulated payments to individuals who had suffered damages caused by racial, political or religious persecution.

By the way, it would be of advantage if you would provide the source if you cite from an article.
Mensch Meyer wrote: "Auf den ersten Blick sind die erwähnten 93 Milliarden DM ein beträchtlicher Betrag. Wenn man aber den zweiten Blick auf die Anzahl der nach dem BEG Berechtigten richtet, (which to that point were Jewish only!) erkennt man, daß von wirklich großzügigen Wiedergutmachungsleistungen nicht die Rede sein kann.
No, it isn't true that only Jews were entitled to indemnifications and restitutions.
Mensch Meyer wrote: 4,5 Millionen Anträge wurden nach dem BEG gestellt, davon nur etwa die Hälfte anerkannt. Umgerechnet ergibt das pro Kopf etwa 20 000 DM. Gemessen an den Verlusten, Leiden, Schäden und Entbehrungen der Opfer - weiß Gott! - kein exorbitanter Betrag. Ich zitiere einen Sachverständigen während der Anhörung vom 24. Juni 1987..."

MM: I reiterate: at the time the "4,5 Millionen Anträge wurden nach dem BEG gestellt" -- and contrary to Roberto's claims, I stand by my earlier comment - that these applications were limited to Jews, because provisions for non-Jews had not yet been enacted.
This is simply false. Before the BEG there have been several other means of restitution in the jurisdiction of the states ("Länder"); these laws did not discriminate between Jews and non-Jews. The BEG itself was meant to compensate Nazi victims who had been persecuted because of racial, political or religious reasons. There was no discrimination between Jews and non-Jews either.
Mensch Meyer wrote: Hence the demographics concerning pre-1938 Jewish population in Europe pose an embarrassing problem if you add the (orthodox number of) SIX MILLION holocaust victims to the 4,5 Millionen applicants/survivors, AND then add Jews in the former Soviet-controlled areas who before 1990 had not yet had an opportunity to apply for WIEDERGUTMACHUNG/restitutions, PLUS when you add another two million (EUROPEAN JEWS) who escaped to various safe countries before the Holocaust.
Well, well, well - this seems to be the ultimate motivation for your vigourous insistance on this issue. I had asked about that before why as an American you are so eager to take a stand on something "perpetrated by foreigners upon another groups of foreigners", but now it becomes clear.

Your point simply seems to be Holocaust denial by trying to prove that the figures of indemnification applications suggest that in no way millions of Jews could have been murdered by the Nazis. This is based on two assumptions:

1) Only Jews were entitled to apply for indemnifications.
2) Every application represents exactly one person.

Regarding the former I have already shown that German indemnification and restitution laws did not only apply to Jews.

The assumption of point two also is wrong. Between October 1, 1953, and December 31, 1987, there were 4,384,138 applications under the BEG; of these 2,014,142 were granted while 1,246,571 were rejected and 1,123,425 were dismissed otherwise, for instance by withdrawal of the application.

These figures of applications do not mean that there were exactly the same numbers of applicants. According to the German Ministry of Finance the applicants in average made more than one application.

Mensch Meyer
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#57

Post by Mensch Meyer » 23 Jun 2002, 20:33

[quote="schroedinger]
Well, well, well - this seems to be the ultimate motivation for your vigourous insistance on this issue. I had asked about that before why as an American you are so eager to take a stand on something "perpetrated by foreigners upon another groups of foreigners", but now it becomes clear.

Your point simply seems to be Holocaust denial
The hackneyed buzzword of "holocaust denial" is usaully the worm's last squirm when he loses the argument.

Let's cut all your obfuscations, your nitpicking and accusations, and attempts that OTHER nazi victims - NOT JEWISH - are the recipients of Germany's reparations! You and Roberto displayed your sorry attempt of REVISING history, evidently there is an element of shame involved concerning the amount of money Israel's has been sucking from her German Cash Cow, based on Holocaust guilt.

To cut the c... here are the bare facts, and they deal with JEWISH RECIPIENTS (LIVING NOT DEAD VICTIMS, whether individual applicants or the actual State of Israel - a more recent up-date of facts that you wish you could diminish, facts begin and end with :

Heading: "The Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany, which recently won a substantial new award for holocaust victims, continues to set precedent...

by Michael Z. Wise

"I FELT THE wings of world history beating in this room," a somber West German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer told the Jewish leader Nahum Goldmann in 1951, when the two met secretly to prepare the way for talks on German reparations for the attempt to annihilate European Jewry. Both men were aware of the momentous moral significance of their encounter. Neither one of them could have foreseen the magnitude of the resulting commitment.

"Today, nearly half a century after the liberation of the Nazi concentration camps, the Federal Republic of Germany has paid out more than $50 billion in the form of reparations to the State of Israel and indemnification to Holocaust survivors.

The German Finance Ministry estimates that it will pay out almost $20 billion more by the year 2030, when according to its current calculations the last survivor will have died. Yet what the German government calls Wiedergutmachung, literally meaning "making good again," can never truly be completed. Most Jews and some Germans avoid the term Wiedergutmachung altogether, considering it to be naive.

Flashback: Swiss Banks, Nazi Plunder

Fear that the memory of the Holocaust may recede with time has in recent years prompted an international outpouring of books and films, and a proliferation of monuments to the Holocaust's victims. Amid these acts of commemoration a little-known organization persists in seeking benefits for tens of thousands of survivors who have still not been indemnified, and at the same time monitors Germany's compliance with existing compensation agreements.

For the New York-based Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany, founded by Goldmann in 1951, memory alone is insufficient. The conference has spent the past four decades quietly working behind closed doors, acting as the go-between for the victims of Nazi persecution and officials of the democratic state that arose from the ashes of the Third Reich.

An umbrella group representing twenty-four Jewish organizations in the United States, France, Britain, Canada, Germany, Argentina, Australia, South Africa, and Israel, the conference negotiated concurrently with Israel the original 1952 West German agreements on reparations and indemnification. Last autumn the conference concluded a major accord under which the newly unified Germany pledged to pay more than half a billion dollars to Jews around the world who endured persecution but until now have received little or no compensation because they failed to meet complex legal criteria. During the German unification talks the United States, long concerned about East Germany's refusal to accept responsibility for Nazi atrocities, had pressed for the commitment when negotiating withdrawal as an occupying power.

Survivors in marginal financial circumstances, many of them refugees from Eastern Europe who missed a 1965 cutoff date for earlier compensation, will be covered by the new agreement. It is expected to furnish more than 25,000 victims with pensions of around $300 a month, starting in 1995, provided that the victims were incarcerated in a concentration camp for at least six months or spent at least eighteen months in a ghetto or in hiding. Another 40,000 survivors who do not meet these criteria will receive one-time payments of 5,000 marks (about $3,000). For the time being, cash-strapped Germany has committed itself to making the monthly payments only through the end of 1999.

THE ANNOUNCEMENT of the new accord last November swiftly aroused expectations among needy survivors, who have packed the shabby waiting room of the claims conference's Manhattan headquarters, jammed its telephone lines, and mailed in tens of thousands of requests for applications for the new benefits. In response the conference has doubled its staff, to more than ninety in its offices in New York, Frankfurt, and Tel Aviv.

For the past two decades the austere New York headquarters have been in a midtown office building. The walls are covered with yellowing maps depicting the sites of former concentration camps and also Wehrmacht troop movements across Europe. The scene brings to mind the Vienna base of the war-crimes investigator Simon Wiesenthal.

Here, too, a warren of chambers is crowded with files and boxed documents, in an atmosphere of ethical imperative. In one room a team of seven recent Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union work ten-hour days addressing envelopes and stuffing them with bilingual applications (in English and German) for the new benefits. The completed questionnaires often are returned paper-clipped with a snapshot of an elderly man or woman, a tattooed arm in the foreground. Photocopies of passports, diplomas, naturalization papers, and affidavits accompany the forms.

One page of the application is given over to a request for a "detailed description of persecution." Some answers are short and to the point. A woman who survived confinement in Lodz wrote: "I was forced to work in the ghetto. My entire family was killed." Others fill all thirty-one lines provided, frequently with fractured English.

Accounts of torment are commonplace here. "I read them every day," says Gerta Feigin, a sixty-five-year-old former lawyer from Latvia who oversees the processing of applications before they are sent to Germany. "And still, every time you take a horrible case in your hands, you just tremble."

Fluent in German, Russian, and English, Feigin possesses a specialized knowledge that is essential for the verification of claims. When further information is required, she personally interviews applicants. A small number are rejected as fraudulent. "I know every ghetto and every concentration camp," she says. "And I start to ask, Where did you live? Did You live in a barracks? What food did you get? At what time was the Appell [roll-call]? If he says it was at six o'clock in Auschwitz, then he's lying, because there the Appell was at nine."

Hysteria sometimes emerges when survivors must summon painful memories in a face-to-face interview. Some project their pain and anguish on the claims conference. "I wish I could wave a magic wand and the whole trauma would disappear," Saul Kagan, the executive director, said late one evening after patiently responding to a series of phone calls from yet another disturbed survivor. A native of what is now Vilnius, in what was then Poland, Kagan, who is now seventy, has been a key figure in the claims conference since its inception. He himself managed to come to the United States before German troops invaded Poland, but his mother and brother did not survive the occupation. Kagan was a member of the original conference negotiating team.

BEFORE THE 1952 agreements there was no precedent in international law for a nation-state to assume responsibility for crimes it committed against a minority within its jurisdiction, and no precedent for collective claims of this kind.

Even if nothing can call the dead back to life or obliterate the crimes, Nahum Goldmann wrote in his memoirs, "this agreement is one of the few great victories for moral principles in modern times." Pragmatism went hand in hand with morality for both German and Jewish negotiators.

Adenauer recognized that reparations were the price for West Germany's admission into the community of civilized nations. (MM: with othere words and I reiterate: Wiedergutmachung/restitutions for JEWISH Nazi victims were the condition whereby the US MILITARY OCCUPATION FORCES ratified WEST Germany's new DEMOCRATIC constitution (Basic Law) - which Adenauer introduced.)

(contd): "And although many Jews rejected the idea of "blood money," the new government of Israel desperately needed financial support. (MM: and Germany became the convenient CASH COW)

"Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion maintained that the killing of the European Jews was a crime for which material reparation could never atone. But his government argued that damages were owed to the heirs of victims, and were needed for survivors' reintegration into normal life. There was plenty to lay claim to. At war's end billions of dollars' worth of plundered Jewish property, including real-estate holdings, securities, jewelry, artworks, and furniture, remained in German hands. "The German people continue to enjoy the fruits of the butcheries and plundering of its leaders of yesterday," an Israeli government statement declared, augmenting the charge with a biblical quotation, from I Kings 21:19: "Hast thou killed and also taken possession?"

The claims conference carefully chose its name to stress the purely material nature of the action and to signal that no quid pro quo was involved, no policy of forgive and forget that somehow suggested the equivalence of six million deaths and a monetary sum. Still, the creation of the conference threw many Jews into emotional turmoil. When the Israeli Parliament convened to approve the negotiations, demonstrators smashed Knesset windows; at least 180 people were injured. (MM aw pshaw...)

"Adenauer for his part faced objections from financial advisers to any large-scale payments -- West Germany's "economic miracle" was not yet in evidence. Both Adenauer and Goldmann received threats of violence. An explosives expert was killed detonating a mail bomb sent to Adenauer by Jewish extremists. Once a decision was made to proceed, it was out of the question for the Jewish side that talks be held on German soil. Instead they took place in seclusion outside The Hague.

"Under the terms of the initial accords West Germany paid $714 million to Israel in compensation for Israel's having taken in uprooted Jewish refugees, and about $110 million to the claims conference to help rebuild shattered European Jewish communities and to support Holocaust research institutions and hundreds of schools, old-age homes, and synagogues around the world. As part of the $714 million payment Israel received German-financed shipments of oil and other raw materials that enabled it to build its modern infrastructure.

"The 1952 accords further obliged West Germany to compensate individuals for loss of liberty, property, and relatives' lives, and for injury to health and professional advancement. Germany is now paying lifelong pensions to 170,000 Holocaust survivors and their heirs. At a peak period as many as 275,000 were receiving pensions. (MM including Elie Wiesel)

"Legislation excludes victims who are not German citizens and remained in their country of origin after the war. West Germany argued that such people have been covered by bilateral accords between Bonn and European governments which provided payments for these states themselves to assist those persecuted by the Nazis. Although the scope of eligibility for direct indemnification has been broadened over the years in response to claims-conference lobbying, the conference failed in its repeated efforts to get an extension of the 1965 deadline by which claimants had to file. Its primary concern was that thousands of Jews who were living hehind the Iron Curtain after the war and who later emigrated were unable to apply for compensation. All the same, many inequities remained, and after Eastern European Jews began to emigrate to the West in large numbers, although the deadline was past West Germany did agree, in 1980, to make one-time payments of about $3,000 from a hardship fund that is being replenished under the latest accord and is administered by the claims conference.

"Beyond the official contacts, the claims conference has negotiated compensation to individuals from some of the companies that benefited from Jewish slave labor, including I. G. Farben, Siemens, and Krupp. Their payments are seen by the conference as morally significant. They are also exceedingly modest. "Cold and niggardly" is how Telford Taylor, the chief U.S. prosecutor at the Nuremberg trials, has described them. More-recent negotiations with two other firms, Daimler-Benz and Volkswagen, have resulted in grants to institutions sheltering and providing care to infirm Holocaust survivors.

(MM: Just for the record, USA, Britain and other WWII nations also used Prisoners of War and Political Detainees in FORCED LABORER.)

" THE CONFERENCE awaits a further injection of funds from the sale of property once owned by Jewish individuals and organizations in eastern Germany, where assets seized by the Nazis were never returned, having been swiftly nationalized by the Communist rulers. Since the reunification of Germany, in 1990, the conference has been designated by the German government as having rights to such property when no heirs remain. The conference has submitted scores of claims over the past two years.

"Claims-conterence officials nowadays meet with German officials in Bonn as a matter of course. The relationship has become "almost routine," says Hermann Josef Brodesser, the chief of the Finance Ministry's Section for Indemnification of National Socialist Injustice. "All of us, on both sides, know what happened and so on," Brodesser says. "Therefore there are appropriate solutions to be found, and we work together in a very businesslike manner."

Rabbi Israel Miller, who took over as conference president after Goldmann's death, in 1982, says, "The people who we're dealing with now in the main were not even alive at that time, and they don't feel any kind of guilt." However, the conference is watching developments in Germany with some concern. An October, 1990, opinion poll for the American Jewish Committee found that 66 percent of Germans believed that reparations should stop. Germany is spending billions of dollars a year to rebuild the formerly Communist eastern part of the country, and plans to curb state spending for social programs have sparked voter hostility over the mounting economic demands of unification.

""There is now a new generation in Germany that is shouldering the tax burden, that does not have the same memories of the war," says Sidney Clearfield, the executive vice-president of B'nai B'rith International, a claims-conference constituent group. "There's a feeling of enough is enough." Nonetheless, the conference is intent on ensuring that as many needy survivors as possible live out their final years in dignity. A meeting with German officials is planned for 1994 to review the efficacy of the latest accord.

For this singular body the bottom line is not just deutsche marks but the principle of accountability. Kagan notes with satisfaction that Germany, by accepting responsibility for its predecessor government, has taken a step that has overriding moral significance for the international community. In this late- twentieth-century world of genocidal impulses and "ethnic cleansing," the precedents that have been set may be needed again.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/flas ... d/wise.htm

schroedinger
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Location: Germany

#58

Post by schroedinger » 23 Jun 2002, 22:25

Mensch Meyer wrote:
schroedinger wrote: Well, well, well - this seems to be the ultimate motivation for your vigourous insistance on this issue. I had asked about that before why as an American you are so eager to take a stand on something "perpetrated by foreigners upon another groups of foreigners", but now it becomes clear.

Your point simply seems to be Holocaust denial
The hackneyed buzzword of "holocaust denial" is usaully the worm's last squirm when he loses the argument.
I'm sorry, but at the moment I don't see any other motivation in your try to establish an "embarrassing problem" regarding Jewish demographics. As has been demonstrated there is no such "problem".
Mensch Meyer wrote: Let's cut all your obfuscations, your nitpicking and accusations, and attempts that OTHER nazi victims - NOT JEWISH - are the recipients of Germany's reparations!
It has been demonstrated as well that either Jews and non-Jews were entitled for applications according to the BEG. So why insist on such false statements?
Mensch Meyer wrote: To cut the c... here are the bare facts, and they deal with JEWISH RECIPIENTS (LIVING NOT DEAD VICTIMS, whether individual applicants or the actual State of Israel - a more recent up-date of facts that you wish you could diminish, facts begin and end with :

Heading: "The Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany, which recently won a substantial new award for holocaust victims, continues to set precedent...


The factual information in this article is well-known; I have already posted the URL to the booklet of the German Ministry of Finance which provides all relevant data:
http://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/A ... nrecht.pdf

Of course there are living recipients of indemnification payments; depending from the actual cases such payments are on-time payments or regular payments, i.e. pensions. I can't understand your emotional outbursts about the simple fact that a state is paying for the damages his predecessor state has caused.


Mensch Meyer wrote: Adenauer recognized that reparations were the price for West Germany's admission into the community of civilized nations. (MM: with othere words and I reiterate: Wiedergutmachung/restitutions for JEWISH Nazi victims were the condition whereby the US MILITARY OCCUPATION FORCES ratified WEST Germany's new DEMOCRATIC constitution (Basic Law) - which Adenauer introduced.)


Well, the German Basic Law was introduced in 1949 while the Luxemburg Agreement was made in 1952. Must have been a strange "condition" that only was fulfilled some three years later.

Mensch Meyer wrote: (contd): "And although many Jews rejected the idea of "blood money," the new government of Israel desperately needed financial support. (MM: and Germany became the convenient CASH COW)


Do you suggest that Germany who robbed billions from the Jews it persecuted, plundered and murdered should have kept the robbed properties by herself? Do you suggest she should not be liable for the damages of the survivors?

The next paragraph actually sets the record straight:

Mensch Meyer wrote: "Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion maintained that the killing of the European Jews was a crime for which material reparation could never atone. But his government argued that damages were owed to the heirs of victims, and were needed for survivors' reintegration into normal life. There was plenty to lay claim to. At war's end billions of dollars' worth of plundered Jewish property, including real-estate holdings, securities, jewelry, artworks, and furniture, remained in German hands. "The German people continue to enjoy the fruits of the butcheries and plundering of its leaders of yesterday," an Israeli government statement declared, augmenting the charge with a biblical quotation, from I Kings 21:19: "Hast thou killed and also taken possession?"


Can you tell me, what is so wrong about paying back ones debts - and in this case, not simply debts, but stolen property? Are you suggesting that Germany should have kept the profit she made from robbing and killing millions of people? Is that what you are advocating?

Mensch Meyer
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#59

Post by Mensch Meyer » 24 Jun 2002, 03:10

"schroedinger
Can you tell me, what is so wrong about paying back ones debts - and in this case, not simply debts, but stolen property? Are you suggesting that Germany should have kept the profit she made from robbing and killing millions of people? Is that what you are advocating?
What's wrong ?

Although the West German reparations program is accepted and often praised in the democratic West, it is also, at least implicitly, strikingly undemocratic in two fundamental respects:

*First, it regards Jews not as equal and fully integrated citizens of whatever country they live in, but rather primarily as members of an alien and cosmopolitan national group.

*Second, it is based on the premise that the German nation, including even the Germans who grew up since 1945, is collectively guilty of terrible crimes, contrary to the democratic notion of individual responsibility for crime.

West Germany's lucrative and historically unparalleled payoff to Israel and world Jewry is a legacy and permanent reminder of Germany's catastrophic defeat in 1945 and subsequent domination by foreign powers.
This returns me to one of my first posts, where I stated that Germany is a puppet government since the end of WWII - needed in creating the Jewish state, Germany became Zionism's Cash Cow.

Degrading the victims through supreme greed your position leaves you without shame. Here is just one of numerous examples:

Deutsche Presse, Mittwoch, 13. Oktober 1999 page 6

Million dollars swindle on Israeli pensioners. Hamburg / Jerusalem (dpa)

"About 1 million in pension benefits earmarked for Israeli pensioners ended up in private hands.

"According to Israeli news reports, Israeli lawyers, Israel Perry in Tel Aviv and Arad Ajalon have been charged with fraud. The whole affair started when German Israeli pensioners were entitled to a pension agreement in 1980. Israeli pensioners were permitted to buy themselves retroactively into the German pension plan, put moneymakers in Israel used these people to fill their own pockets.

Pazifische Rundschau Page 2 Panorama January 4, 1999, Commentary by Charles Krauthammer - Washington Post

"The Holocaust Scandal" The pursuit of billions in Holocaust guild money has gone from the unseemly to the disgraceful. What began as an attempt to locate actual confiscated Swiss bank accounts of individual Holocaust victims has turned into a treasure hunt for hungry tort lawyers and major Jewish organizations. It all started with the $1.25 billion that the Swiss banks paid in settlement of Holocaust claims. That opened the floodgates.

As chronicled by Barry Meier in the Nov. 29 New York Times,

"...it has spurred personal injury lawyers, class-action specialists and major Jewish demos to seek similar bounties from banks ("Unredeemed accounts"), insurers ("Unpaid death benefits") and manufacturers ("Uncompensated forced labor") throughout Europe.

And you ask:
What is wrong with that?


(contd): "What's wrong, is (MM: that beyond the $80 billion restitutions legitimately paid years ago and on-going to this day by Germany to individual Jews and to Israel,) -- "there are today few survivors left who will actually benefit from money transfers. It is late, very late for this kind of restitution. The war ended 53 years ago."

"Instead, what is happening is that lawyers and community bureaucrats reap the power and payoff that comes from collecting in the name of those whose names are forever lost. The risk to borrow a phrase from Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League, "an industry to be made on the memory of victims." ….

"Contingency fees? Class action suits? Fishing for aged Jews from whom they can make a killing? The lawyers crisscross Europe in search ever-richer settlements to extract from any institution - and don't forget, there are many - with a tainted World War II past.

"Is this what honoring the Holocaust has come to? A shake down of Swiss banks, Austrian industry, and German Auto makers - the list grows daily -that recalls the worst of racial hustling and class action opportunism in the United States? ..."

----------end of article--------

To remind you of comments by Nahum Goldman, former President of the World Jewish Congress:

"These reparations constitute an extraordinary innovation in terms of international law. Until then, when a country lost a war, it paid damages to the victor, but it was a matter between states, between governments. Now for the first time a nation was to give reparations either to ordinary individuals or to Israel, which did not legally exist at the time of Hitler's crimes." ...

schroedinger
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Location: Germany

#60

Post by schroedinger » 24 Jun 2002, 12:19

Mensch Meyer wrote:
schroedinger wrote: Can you tell me, what is so wrong about paying back ones debts - and in this case, not simply debts, but stolen property? Are you suggesting that Germany should have kept the profit she made from robbing and killing millions of people? Is that what you are advocating?
What's wrong ?

Although the West German reparations program is accepted and often praised in the democratic West, it is also, at least implicitly, strikingly undemocratic in two fundamental respects:
Aha. Let's see:
Mensch Meyer wrote: *First, it regards Jews not as equal and fully integrated citizens of whatever country they live in, but rather primarily as members of an alien and cosmopolitan national group.

*Second, it is based on the premise that the German nation, including even the Germans who grew up since 1945, is collectively guilty of terrible crimes, contrary to the democratic notion of individual responsibility for crime.

West Germany's lucrative and historically unparalleled payoff to Israel and world Jewry is a legacy and permanent reminder of Germany's catastrophic defeat in 1945 and subsequent domination by foreign powers.
I have asked you before to provide a reference when you quote from an article. Why wouldn't you mention that these paragraphs are taken from an article by Mark Weber, director of the Holocaust denying IHR? See:

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p243_Weber.html

By the way, both points made by Weber are worthless. As has been pointed out before, the BEG didn't discriminate any applicants regarding their nationality or ethnicity. "Collective guilt" is not a concept taken by anyone seriously; the position of Germans in general has nothing to do with guilt but with responsibility.

I see no value in your further propagandistic stuff so I won't comment on it.

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