Can anyone help me with this

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Roberto
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#91

Post by Roberto » 11 Jul 2002, 11:08

Mensch Meyer wrote:
Charles Bunch wrote: The answer to Roberto's question is about DM 80 billion has been paid out under BEG. That's DM 80,000 for each of the one million beneficiaries. I'm not sure what the exchange rate is, but isn't that about $40,000?
Mensch Meyer wrote:Depends on the source you use. I have seen figures of 100 billion DM.
Is that so, Meyer?

Where have you seen them?

Source please.

Compensation payments of the German Federal Republic as of 1 January 1999, according to a German government source provided by Meyer himself, were the following:
Amount in billion Deutschmarks


I.

Payments to date


1. Federal Indemnification Law (BEG)

79.648

2. Federal Restitution Law (BRüG)

3.955

3. Compensatory Pension Law (ERG)

0.987


4. Israel treaty

3.450


5. Overall agreements with individual states (and similar)

2.563


6. Other payments (payments not covered by I.1 to I.3)

8.800


7. Payments by German federal states not included in BEG

2.546


8. Settlement of hardship cases (without federal states)


1.991


total


103.940


II.

Future payments



BEG

15.352


BrüG

0.045


ERG

0.613


Overall agreements (and similar)

0.357


Other payments

1.200


Payments by the federal states not included in BEG

0.954


Settlement of hardship cases (without federal states)

4.539


total


23.060


III.

Probable total payments


BEG

95.000


BRüG

4.000


ERG

1.600


Israel treaty

3.450


Overall agreements (and similar)

2.920


Other payments

10.000


Payments by federal states not included in BEG

3.500


Settlement of hardship cases (without federal states)


6.530


total

127.000


Status: 1 January 1999
Source of quote: See my post of Mon Jun 03, 2002 5:36 pm on the thread

Can anyone help me with this
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... e874#28793

So the German government counts on "probable total payments" in the amount of 127,000,000,000 DEM (roughly US$ 63,500,000,000), thereof
95,000,000,000 DEM (roughly US$ 47,500,000,000) or 75 % of the total in compensation payments to individual claimants under the BEG.

This means that each of the ca. one million acknowledged claimants who
were persecuted on account of their political convictions, for reasons of race, belief or due to their philosophy of life and as a result suffered physical injury or material loss, in particular loss of life, bodily harm or harm to their health, loss of property and assets as well as the hindering of their professional and financial advancement
has received, on average, the equivalent of US$ 47,500. A splendid yearly income, but a rather miserable pension if spread out over the roughly 50 years during which there will have been payments under the BEG when the last amount is paid out - US$ 950 per claimant per year on average. Especially considering that what these people went through was not like damaging a tooth on a grain of sand inside a prawn in a luxury restaurant (for which actress Gina Lollobrigida once received an indemnity of US$ 90,000).
Mensch Meyer wrote:Under certain circumstances, recipients of ongoing BEG payments can also apply for stays at a health spa (Kur), or for increases in ongoing BEG payments due to deterioration in health. That means they can go to Baden Baden...
Can Meyer point out the provisions of the BEG that allow for such benefits, and can he tell us how many people have applied for them on what grounds, and how many of such applications have been acknowledged?

Or is the above just some more of Meyer's hollow blah-blah-blah?
Mensch Meyer wrote:BTW, the latest demands by the Eagleberger commission was that the German taxpayers pay comprehensive health insurance for former East European Jews, the socalled Russian immigrants, former commies, who during recent years flooded into our major cities and who also help Israel build those illegal settlements.
On what grounds were such claims made?

And what is the German government's position thereon?
Mensch Meyer wrote:I don't know why Roberto limits his information exclusively on BEG, perhaps his Nizkor sources don't supply him the full information. BEG is just one of the many Holocaust "restitutions."
I don't know why Meyer keeps rambling about Nizkor. I've just read his own sources, which he obviously hasn't, otherwise he would know that the lion's share of compensation payments to surviving victims of Nazi persecution are made under the BEG. I wonder if Meyer can give us a comprehensive listing of the other among those "many" Holocaust compensations, identifying the beneficiaries and amounts paid out in each case. With a reference to a reliable source, of course.
Mensch Meyer wrote:The most recent "restitution" was the German Cash Cow's "donation" to Israel of two submarines, each at $450.000.
A piss in the ocean, I would say. All the same, Meyer is invited to provide information from a reliable source demonstrating that i) the subs are a "donation" and ii) the "donation" is related to compensation for Nazi crimes against Jews.

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#92

Post by Charles Bunch » 11 Jul 2002, 15:53

Mensch Meyer wrote:
Charles Bunch wrote: The answer to Roberto's question is about DM 80 billion has been paid out under BEG. That's DM 80,000 for each of the one million beneficiaries. I'm not sure what the exchange rate is, but isn't that about $40,000?
Depends on the source you use. I have seen figures of 100 billion DM.
The German government says about DM 80 billion has been paid out through 1999.
Under certain circumstances, recipients of ongoing BEG payments can also apply for stays at a health spa (Kur), or for increases in ongoing BEG payments due to deterioration in health. That means they can go to Baden Baden...
Which doesn't change the point. The per person amount paid out under BEG, when compared to the amount paid by the US government for a far less serious crime, is quite small. Your health spa stories are more propaganda than a serious discussion of the issue.
BTW, the latest demands by the Eagleberger commission was that the German taxpayers pay comprehensive health insurance for former East European Jews, the socalled Russian immigrants, former commies, who during recent years flooded into our major cities and who also help Israel build those illegal settlements.
So you claim. The insurance commission's purpose is to resolve unpaid insurance claims of policies purchased between 1920 and 1945. The people who purchased these policies with the expectation of receiving benefits lost that opportunity along with virtually everything else they owned.

I don't know why Roberto limits his information exclusively on BEG, perhaps his Nizkor sources don't supply him the full information. BEG is just one of the many Holocaust "restitutions."
Because, as he's told you, it represents the vast majority of the money paid out and it permits a per person calculation.
The most recent "restitution" was the German Cash Cow's "donation" to Israel of two submarines, each at $450.000.
I'm sure Germany would be insulted by your pricing of their $325,000,000 subs at $450,000! The submarines were part of a committment made by Helmut Kohl during the Gulf War when Israel, not a party to the conflict, was attacked by Iraq with Scud missles.


Mensch Meyer
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#93

Post by Mensch Meyer » 11 Jul 2002, 15:56

Roberto wrote:
Mensch Meyer wrote:The most recent "restitution" was the German Cash Cow's "donation" to Israel of two submarines, each at $450.000.
A piss in the ocean, I would say. All the same, Meyer is invited to provide information from a reliable source demonstrating that i) the subs are a "donation" and ii) the "donation" is related to compensation for Nazi crimes against Jews.
If it's "piss in the ocean" it is for you to define what "holocaust victims" have to do with TODAY'S German taxpayers paying for Israeli submarines ! Hitler's crimes occurred before the Jewish State even existed !! These shyster deals are what Norman Finkelstein wrote his book about. Jews use the Holocaust to turn Germany into their Cash Cow. And you sit there and defend this repugnant desecration of Nazi victims !

Isael's acquisition of submarines is the typical scam. Its success again was built on the GERMAN CASH COW that is kept activated by holocaust docu-dramas, holocaust curriculum, and perpetuatal guilt, whereby German taxpayers having already paid $ 98 BILLION in reparations for the Holocaust - are still paying to this day.

The scam of the Submarines began with DESERT STORM, when Germany DONATED from its own stockpile all the Patriot Missiles Israel demanded and the latest gasmasks for Israeli citizens, and when the Germans picked up the tab for the entire MIDDLE EAST logi$tics support based at RHINE MAIN / Ramstein, which included all fligths (of men, materiel and landing cost, including medivacs.) All this to keep Israel safe in her cesspool in the Middle East. What does that have to do with Hitler's Holocaust ?

When Desert Storm was over, Israel immediately demanded from her German CASH COW monetary compensation for her "Pain and Suffering" AND her "RESTRAINT against Iraq." That's when Israelis put Submarines on their wish list - to be built and delivered by Israel's German CASH COW. Being a shameless beggar state ("BEG" - ahem), Israel has the chutzpah again to add the barb of guilt, by launching accusations at Germans in the media, here in the case of the Washington Times, where Israel also falsely pretends with the typical ambiguous wording to have BOUGHT the subs:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/su ... natl1.html

"Following a disclosure that German companies supplied materials for Iraq's chemical and other nonconventional weapons programs, the Bonn MM: "puppet") government announced it would fund the construction of two of the three submarines, Ha'aretz said.
(MM: That's how the Jewish media affects world opinion - "GUILT!" In this case in connection with the furvor of war - Desert Storm. Never mind that Britain, France and the US too had been heavily invested in Iraqi multy-purpose high tech -- but only Germany is Israel's Cash Cow! - Here Ha'aretz confirms that Germany paid for two of the subs, contd): Ha'aretz: "The paper said the Israeli government decided to pay for the third submarine itself." ( MM:---ONLY AFTER BONN REFUSED TO PAY FOR THE THIRD SUBMARINE, BECAUSE GERMANY HAD JUST GONE THROUGH UNIFICATION, AND HER TAX PAYERs WERE GETTING ASSERTIVE, HAVING TO ASSIST THE ECONOMICAL ASSIMILATION OF HER OWN FELLOW CITIZENS WHO HAD BEEN BURIED BEHIND THE IRON CURTAIN FOR GENERATIONS. - contd Ha'aretz): "Experts say the deterrence problem has become urgent for Israeli military planners, who have produced hundreds of nuclear weapons but have made no serious effort to protect their few launch bases against a pre-emptive nuclear attack..." (MM: what does that have to do with Hitler's holocaust? )

----------------------

Next, again Israeli media is trying to conceal its international shnorring, pretending she pays for her goodies:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/su ... tl1-1.html

Ha'aretz Daily Newspaper Tuesday, June 9, 1998 Swimming with the Dolphins:

"Israel's new Dolphin submarines, built in Germany, will add a new dimension to the nuclear arms race in the Middle East By Yossi Melman. "At the beginning of 1999, when the navy will bring into active service the first of three Dolphin submarines, constructed at German shipyards, the Middle East arms race will take on new proportions.
(MM: NO mention here that two of them were DONATED by German taxpayers.)

-------------------------------------

Next - out-and-out LIE in the US media - Israel again pretending that she BOUGHT Submarines - in the headline !!:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/su ... natl1.html

"July 1, 1998 The Washington Times Israel BUYING 3 submarines to carry nuclear missiles By Martin Sieff

"Israel is BUYING three large submarines from Germany capable of carrying nuclear-armed cruise missiles, with the reported goal of deterring any enemy from trying to take out its nuclear weapons with a surprise attack."

------------------------------------------

Next: the news explain why the Israelis ripped off Americans (similar as with the LAVI jet fighter scam) - telling the US industry to take a hike, when Israel cancelled the deal with the US, after Germany DONATED 2 of the 3 submarines:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/sub/

"Mark Regev, speaking for the Israeli Embassy, confirmed that his country had recently ACQUIRED three submarines from Germany but would not comment on whether they were being outfitted with nuclear weapons. "There has been no change in Israel's longstanding position not to introduce nuclear weapons in the Middle East,'' Regev said. (MM: another lie - contd:) "The project initially was structured to include an industrial team consisting of HDW and Thyssen Nordseewerke, lead by Ingalls Shipbuilding. "The project, under which the boats would be built in the United States by Ingalls using US FMS funds, was cancelled in 1990. (Dumping the US, Israel turned to Germany to get the subs for free after they sent the Germans on the Desert Storm - guilt trip. contd: )

"The crews of the submarines started training in 1994, and participated in the building process as well as in the acceptance procedures for weapon systems. Germany DONATED two of these submarines to Israel, which were delivered in 1997. Israel bought a third Dolphin submarine from Germany." (MM: only because Germany had refused to pay for the third one, see above.)

I am now waiting for you to connect Hitler's Holocaust victims and their restitutions with Israel's shysters getting free submarines from the German tax payer !

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Roberto
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#94

Post by Roberto » 11 Jul 2002, 16:07

Mensch Meyer wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Mensch Meyer wrote:The most recent "restitution" was the German Cash Cow's "donation" to Israel of two submarines, each at $450.000.
A piss in the ocean, I would say. All the same, Meyer is invited to provide information from a reliable source demonstrating that i) the subs are a "donation" and ii) the "donation" is related to compensation for Nazi crimes against Jews.
Mensch Meyer wrote:[If it's "piss in the ocean" it is for you to define what "holocaust victims" have to do with TODAY'S German taxpayers paying for Israeli submarines !
I think Meyer didn't understand my question.

I was asking for a reliable souces certifying that the subs that bother poor Meyer so much were

i) a donation by the German Federal Republic to the state of Israel and

ii) intended to be some sort of compensation for the Nazi genocide of the Jews, like the 3.45 billion DEM paid under the Israel Treaty.

I'll let our audience decide whether Meyer's furious tirades comply with these requirements. Something I read in his quotes about a "disclosure that German companies supplied materials for Iraq's chemical and other nonconventional weapons" suggests that they don't.

And what about the rest of my post, Meyer? Is your lack of arguments in regard thereto the reason why you took refuge in those cute little subs ?

Mensch Meyer
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#95

Post by Mensch Meyer » 11 Jul 2002, 19:41

Roberto wrote:
Mensch Meyer wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Mensch Meyer wrote:The most recent "restitution" was the German Cash Cow's "donation" to Israel of two submarines, each at $450.000.
A piss in the ocean, I would say. All the same, Meyer is invited to provide information from a reliable source demonstrating that i) the subs are a "donation" and ii) the "donation" is related to compensation for Nazi crimes against Jews.
Mensch Meyer wrote:[If it's "piss in the ocean" it is for you to define what "holocaust victims" have to do with TODAY'S German taxpayers paying for Israeli submarines !
I think Meyer didn't understand my question.

I was asking for a reliable souces certifying that the subs that bother poor Meyer so much were

i) a donation by the German Federal Republic to the state of Israel and

ii) intended to be some sort of compensation for the Nazi genocide of the Jews, like the 3.45 billion DEM paid under the Israel Treaty.

I'll let our audience decide whether Meyer's furious tirades comply with these requirements. Something I read in his quotes about a "disclosure that German companies supplied materials for Iraq's chemical and other nonconventional weapons" suggests that they don't.

And what about the rest of my post, Meyer? Is your lack of arguments in regard thereto the reason why you took refuge in those cute little subs ?
And you still are not able to answer my question: what do Hitler's Holocaust victims and their restitutions have to do with Israel's shysters getting free submarines from the German tax payer !

Trust me - the data I pass on is much more valuable to the reader than your foot-stomping tissies.

Take up bowling, bubele.

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Roberto
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#96

Post by Roberto » 11 Jul 2002, 19:45

Mensch Meyer wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Mensch Meyer wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Mensch Meyer wrote:The most recent "restitution" was the German Cash Cow's "donation" to Israel of two submarines, each at $450.000.
A piss in the ocean, I would say. All the same, Meyer is invited to provide information from a reliable source demonstrating that i) the subs are a "donation" and ii) the "donation" is related to compensation for Nazi crimes against Jews.
Mensch Meyer wrote:[If it's "piss in the ocean" it is for you to define what "holocaust victims" have to do with TODAY'S German taxpayers paying for Israeli submarines !
I think Meyer didn't understand my question.

I was asking for a reliable souces certifying that the subs that bother poor Meyer so much were

i) a donation by the German Federal Republic to the state of Israel and

ii) intended to be some sort of compensation for the Nazi genocide of the Jews, like the 3.45 billion DEM paid under the Israel Treaty.

I'll let our audience decide whether Meyer's furious tirades comply with these requirements. Something I read in his quotes about a "disclosure that German companies supplied materials for Iraq's chemical and other nonconventional weapons" suggests that they don't.

And what about the rest of my post, Meyer? Is your lack of arguments in regard thereto the reason why you took refuge in those cute little subs ?
Mensch Meyer wrote:And you still are not able to answer my question: what do Hitler's Holocaust victims and their restitutions have to do with Israel's shysters getting free submarines from the German tax payer !
Nothing at all, I conclude from Meyer's above statement. Which means that my assumption was correct, my questions have been satisfactorily answered and Meyer has again shot himself in the foot.
Mensch Meyer wrote:Trust me - the data I pass on is much more valuable to the reader than your foot-stomping tissies.
Depends on whether the reader is a Meyer-like moron who sees crooked-nosed Jews behind each door or a more reasonable character, I would say.

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#97

Post by Mensch Meyer » 12 Jul 2002, 03:38

="RobertoDepends on whether the reader is a Meyer-like moron who sees crooked-nosed Jews behind each door or a more reasonable character, I would say.

Roberto, you have a problem...

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#98

Post by Tarpon27 » 12 Jul 2002, 17:07


In the early 80s' the navy started examining and later planning the submarine to replace the Gal class. The concept for the forth generation of Israeli submarines was a tailor-made submarine for Israel's specific needs. After a long search and consideration Germany was chosen by Israel to build its new submarines. Israel's Defence Minister at that time, Yitzahk Rabin approved the project and in August 1989 a contract with 2 German shipyards was signed and the Dolphin class submarine project was launched.

The heads of the Israeli Defence Forces, Zahal (IDF) were never navy oriented, and had a narrow knowledge of naval warfare. The price of one Dolphin submarine is extremely high, ($340 million). When it comes to cut the budget, the navy is the first to feel the axe. The land forces and the airforce will ever come before the navy when it comes to distribution of resources. In November of 1990, due to heavy budgetary burdens, IDF's Chief of Staff, Major General Ehud Barak (The current Prime Minister of Israel) and the new Defence Minister Moshe Arens, decided to call off the Dolphin Project. Nevertheless, 3 months later, Sadam Hussein Iraq's leader, by showing a perfect timing, offered his "help" and saved the project.

In January of 1991 the Gulf War begun. Israel was requested by the Western Allies to sit still while every night, Scud missiles launched by Iraq hit the centres of Israel's cities. For weeks Israeli citizens were forced to sit in sealed rooms, wearing gas masks and wait for the chemical warhead missiles to hit. Israel decided to comply with the request of the USA and it's allies and did not retaliate.

During the war, German firms were accused of co-operating with Iraq and assisting her to produce various types of chemical weapons. Public opinion in Germany and in Israel was stormy. In an attempt to calm down the hostile atmosphere against Germany, to compensate Israel for it's economical losses and in order to maintain the German shipyards occupied, the German chancellor, Helmut Kohl decided to grant Israel with 2 new Dolphin Class submarines. (In early 1995, Germany and Israel finalised an agreement for the third submarine, each country will bear half of the costs.)

[...]
http://www.dolphin.org.il/dolphins/


This is an Israeli site of their submariners' association, i.e., submariners are often termed as "dolphins", while also the new boats (subs are "boats" not "ships") are termed as the "Dolphin" class.

No one buys a modern submarine for $450,000, as asserted.

Now, apparently Germany and Brandt paid for the Israeli subs for political reasons, including negative world opinion on some German firms supplying Saddam with sophisticated technology used for weapons of mass destruction. And Israel did not strike back at Iraq for launching SCUD missles into Israel, and considering that no one knew what their payload was, whether HE or the possibility that they may contain biological, chemical, or even remotely, nuclear warheads, it was remarkable that a State would endure the political pressures NOT to retaliate to protect its citizens and borders, particularly Israel and the threat posed by Iraq.

Iraq used chemical weapons with Iran, and had these weapons been used, I doubt if Israel could have been stopped from attacking Iraq, and would have led to the dissolution of the Coalition and an extremely dangerous escalation of the conflict. I have also read accounts and there was a recent History channel program that asserted Saddam in targeting Israel with Scuds, plus starting the environmental destruction (the release of oil into the sea and the destruction and burning of the oil wellheads in the hundreds) was to force the Coalition's land forces to strike. The longer they prepared, which was their strategy, the weaker the Iraqi position became and the political situation was increasingly difficult for Saddam. He also hoped to dissolve the Coalition by getting a massive Israel counterstrike.

Finally, the shipyards involved in Germany were considered vital to Germany's overall political/economic/military stability, and they needed work. There was domestic pressure to keep the shipyards operating and the skilled workers employed, plus the future needs of the German military.

It is not that I necessarily disagree with Meyer's "protest" over these submarines, but it is a situation a bit more complicated than simply the implied extortion by guilt. Many countries had businesses that have contributed technology that can be used for weapons, and this sophisticated technology in the hands of people like Saddam is extremely dangerous and creates great instability. US firms have also sold technology to various states, and the cost for Israel's forebearance to the US was not $680 million, but $3.4 billion.

While Mr. Meyer wishes to reduce this sale to the simplest of terms relating, I guess, to extortion, the German government had its own reasons to make the offer, that, of course, included the technology sales by some German firms and the resultant negative world opinion. But it also had other reasons which cannot be so simply swept away, nor can it be dismissed that Israel's lack of participation in a war on its front door, and that was critical to keep an Arab coalition together where Coalition forces were based from, was bribed to stay out of the conflict.

Mark

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