An Odd Statement by Rudolph Hoss, Commandant of Auschwitz

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 18 Mar 2002 18:48

StandartenfuehrerSS wrote:Laughing out loud. The break and run technique, very brave, I'm sure you're quite the warrior, 'Commissar D the Evil'. And you call Peiper a coward?! REDICILOUS! Well, another waste of time this was, you Americans make such a mess out of everything.


The brave warrior who insulted members of my family and then refused to provide his name and address although I twice asked him to do so should thread rather lightly, in my opinion.

Another thing:

<<'Furthermore, despite the “herculean attempts”'

Yes go ahead, be sure to put that between braquets. After all, you did so much more, you, the real warhero, you the valiant saviour of the fatherland. How many warwounds did you have again?>>

I didn’t yet have the privilege to defend my Fatherland. Tough luck. But an uncle of mine had, and he didn’t reach the age of 21 due to it. Have a look:

Interesting Revisionist Work
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... =166.topic

A German soldier
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumth ... 3772.topic


From the thread

Response to Standartenführer
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 7e2efc4187

I would like to see your combat record, big mouth.

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Post by StandartenfuehrerSS » 18 Mar 2002 19:51

Medi is trying to be demanding, but the Standartenführer isn't impressed.

You must be joking me; not providing an address over a medium as leaky and transparent as 'the Internet' would be a sign of cowardness? I woulder sooner saw my arm off than providing any personnal details about myself or my location on this forum. On a sidenote; I would appreciate the gesture if you left out such misplaced uneducative queries in the future, the goal is to have an intelligent discussion, not to have a chat over coffee and biscuits about some chap's location, if you don't mind.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 18 Mar 2002 19:57

StandartenfuehrerSS wrote:Medi is trying to be demanding, but the Standartenführer isn't impressed.

You must be joking me; not providing an address over a medium as leaky and transparent as 'the Internet' would be a sign of cowardness? I woulder sooner saw my arm off than providing any personnal details about myself or my location on this forum. On a sidenote; I would appreciate the gesture if you left out such misplaced uneducative queries in the future, the goal is to have an intelligent discussion, not to have a chat over coffee and biscuits about some chap's location, if you don't mind.


I see the problem with the Internet. You may thus write to my office e-mail:

robert.muehlenkamp@lis1.siemens.pt

Now back to the subject: I would like to see your combat record, brave SS warrior. Any chance?

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Wiking
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Post by Wiking » 18 Mar 2002 20:06

Last but not least, Höss gave the death toll of Auschwitz-Birkenau at having been 1,135,000.

_____________________________________________________________

May be possible that i have missed something, but Höss has spoken of 2,5 million victims and he has confessed that an exact estimation would be difficult, even for him (IMT, 1946) However he has written a report on 24.4.1946 which is dealing with a count of 1,125 million victims. I consider that you are refering to that paper.

_____________________________________________________________

Dies ist die technisch mögliche Aufrechnung. Ich muß mich an die Zahl von Eichmann halten... Nach meinem besten Wissen erscheint mir die Zahl (von 2,5 Millionen ; Anmerkung des Autoren) aber viel zu hoch... Doch das sind meine Schätzungen...

Nürnberg, 24. April 1946 - Nürnberger Tagebuch, Appendix
Observe the world and think

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 18 Mar 2002 20:17

Wiking,

The 1,135,000 figure I got from two sources.

One is William Shirer, [/i]The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich[/i], New York 1960, Page 973:

How many hapless innocent people - mostly Jews but including a fairly large number of others, especially Russian prisoners of war - were slaughtered at the one camp of Auschwitz? The exact number will never be known. Hoess himself in his affidavit gave an estimate of ‘2,500,000 victims executed and exterminated by gassing and burning, and at least another half million who succumbed to starvation and disease, making a total of about 3,000,000’. Later at his own trial in Warsaw he reduced the figure to 1,135,000. The Soviet government, which investigated the camp after it was overrun by the Red Army in January 1945, put the figure at four million. Reitlinger, on the basis of his own exhaustive study, doubts that the number gassed at Auschwitz was ‘even as high as three quarters of a million.’ He estimates that about 600,000 died in the gas chambers, to which he adds ‘the unknown proportion’ of some 300,000 of more ‘missing’, who were shot or died of starvation and disease. By any estimate the figure is considerable.


The other is Zimmermann's online article How Reliable are the Höss Memoirs:

Höss's most important demographic observation concerns the total number of victims who were murdered at Auschwitz. He gave the total (39) of 1,130,000. Until recently, many disputed estimates of this size. Most studies of Auschwitz gave a number at least twice as high or higher. Even the cover jacket for the edition of the memoirs used for this study places the number murdered at 2 million. However, in 1991 Polish historian and Auschwitz authority, Dr. Franciszek Piper, did the most comprehensive demographic study of the number of deportees to the camp ever undertaken. He began the study in 1980. He found that 1.3 million had been deported to Auschwitz during its 4 1/2 year existence but that only 400,000 had received a registration number. Of those 400,000 only 200,000 had not been killed. All of the unregistered deportees, who cannot be accounted for, were killed. This means that 1.1 million were killed. 49 The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington D.C. has now accepted this number. 50


Source of quote:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschw ... s-memoirs/

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Wiking
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Post by Wiking » 18 Mar 2002 20:59

@medorjurgen : the estimation of 1,125 million victims has been given by Rudolf Hoess at the IMT. He has written the following original comment about it :


Dies ist die technisch mögliche Aufrechnung. Ich muß mich an die Zahl von Eichmann halten (2,5 Millionen ; Anmerk.d.Autoren), der der einzige SS-Führer war, der Aufzeichnungen über diese Vernichtungsaktionen lt. Befehl des RFSS machen durfte. Alle anderen Dienststellen, die irgendwie beteiligt waren, hatten sofort alle Unterlagen zu vernichten. Eichmann gab mir diese Zahl an, als er im April 1945 zu einem Rapport zum RFSS bestellt war. Ich hatte keinerlei Unterlagen. Nach meinem besten Wissen erscheint mir diese Zahl aber viel zu hoch. Wenn ich die Zahlen der großen Massenaktionen, die ich noch im Kopf habe, zusammenrechne und noch % Fehlerquoten dazunehme, so waren es nach meiner Berechnung nach höchstens 1,5 Millionen von Beginn 1941 bis Abschluß 1944. Doch das sind meine Schätzungen, die ich nicht belegen kann.

Nrbg. 24.April 1946, Rudolf Höß


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Nuremburg Diaries, Appendix, S.447-450
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Scott Smith
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Re: Hoess' memoirs

Post by Scott Smith » 18 Mar 2002 21:55

Commissar D the EviL wrote:Thank you Medojurgen, I think you have made a very valid case fo the authenticity of Hoess' memoirs. That was a very informative post. Best Regards, David


Although I think that Höß wrote the memoirs himself and are thus "authentic," this does not necessarily mean that they are true and accurate. Adolf Eichmann, for example, testified that Jews were killed with diesel submarine engines, and he should know, right? And Ted Bundy confessed to a lot of stuff that was simply bogus. Höß, if you will remember, was billed as the greatest mass-murderer of history.

By some people's reckoning if Höß claimed to have exterminated people with Death Rays we should believe him. I think we should be cautious considering the political and ideological baggage this subject brings with it for historians. Auschwitz, by any measure, is regarded as the 20th century's locus of Evil. Surely a unique and polemical concept for historians of fact over mythology.
:)

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Hoess' memoirs

Post by David C. Clarke » 18 Mar 2002 22:15

Hi Scott, I understand your point, Auschwitz is the focal point of many people's understanding of the Holocaust and Hoess' memoirs could have a subtle or not to subtle shading due to his imprisonment. However, what are we to do in 2002? The memoirs exist, they must be taken into account. How one interprets the memoirs must be a personal decision. Some will take them as the gospel, others will disregard them as Communist propaganda. My choice is to accept them as the expressions of a man who, though imprisoned, attempted to give an explanation of the horrific work he did.
I think that the problem of interpretation and acceptance is by no means unique to Hoess but can apply to any memoir of the era, from strictly military accounts to political accounts. No one who writes "for posterity" is without an agenda, be it dictated by circumstances, ideology or pragmitism. Best Regards, David

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Scott Smith
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Höß

Post by Scott Smith » 18 Mar 2002 23:11

Hi David, I agree completely. I found Death Dealer quite interesting and valuable.
:)

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Post by Tchort » 19 Mar 2002 00:42

Commissar D evil-

I don't doubt that a large portion is in fact true, as it wouldn't make sense for someone to torture him into writing a book of false statements. I do find it hard to beleive at certain, important points.

well, I don't think it's hard at all to accept that he kept his beelifs even after his ordeal. I still beleive in the... well, you get the idea :wink:

Wehr2-

America is Israel's lapdog. Right now I'm having a hard time sorting out my rationalizations for Bush's public attitude on Israel right now. While the population is partial to the palestinians when they're being invaded or butchered and what not, they have nothing but sympathy for the Israelis when a suicidebomber takes out a few people in a grocery store or something. the public doesnt like 'bad things'-bad thigns being any killing, any invading,etc and it can be said theres a good case for both the Israelis and Palestinians, so the public changes its veiw whenever somehting favors one or the other.

Medorjurgen-

From what i remember the number given by Höss was 4 million. That number was upheld until it couldn't be defended anymore (note the change of the plaque outside Auschwitz-birkenau) but this change in 1990 doesn't take into consideration the total number of victems (which drops more every year. originally it was 6 million, now its dwindled to 5 million.)

Scott Smith-Wouldnt Kaganovich or Lavrenti Beria hold a higher murder count than Höss? The numbers speak for themselves.

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Post by Wiking » 19 Mar 2002 00:49

From what i remember the number given by Höss was 4 million. That number was upheld until it couldn't be defended anymore (note the change of the plaque outside Auschwitz-birkenau) but this change in 1990 doesn't take into consideration the total number of victems (which drops more every year. originally it was 6 million, now its dwindled to 5 million.)

_____________________________________________________________

It does not drop more every year and it won't drop anymore in the future. The count of 1.125.000 million victims is the truth. Concerning Höß refer to his documents and hand written confession, in which he is speaking of 1.125.000 million victims. The count of 2.500.000 has been given by Adolf Eichmann, but is not correct . More then 1.000.000 people died at Auschwitz Birkenau between 1941 and 1944 , and that is fairly enough for my taste.
Observe the world and think

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Body-Count theory-of-history...

Post by Scott Smith » 19 Mar 2002 01:43

Tchort wrote:Scott Smith-Wouldnt Kaganovich or Lavrenti Beria hold a higher murder count than Höss? The numbers speak for themselves.


Possibly. I don't know. I don't subscribe to what I call a Body-Count theory-of-history; that is a Democracy-Capitalist fantasy that presumes only tyrants and dictators ruin people's lives. Capitalism by its nature involves "crimes against humanity" which are not even recognized as such.

Also note that I did not argue that Höß WAS the greatest mass-murderer of history but that is how he is SEEN in the historical genre, as historiographers must know when scrutinizing him.

I think that Höß, on Himmler's instructions, might have liquidated some inmates who were unfit for work to alleviate relentless and almost uncontrollable overcrowding. I do not know if he gassed anybody or not. However, I do not think that 500 thousand were gassed in the basement of Krema II for example. Call me skeptical. Very skeptical.

About fifteen years ago if I said I doubted that four million were gassed and burned at Auschwitz I would be an anti-Semite or worse. Now this figure is universally recognized to have been in error; the actual number is a little over a million. But given with a straight face as if it doesn't matter if it was a million, four million, or four billion. "Petty details" DO matter for historians.
:)

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ROBERTO cut the crap...

Post by Scott Smith » 19 Mar 2002 02:18

Medorjurgen (Roberto) wrote:

The brave warrior who insulted members of my family and then refused to provide his name and address although I twice asked him to do so should thread rather lightly, in my opinion.


Calm down, Senor, the Colonel did NOT insult your family.

You said that your Grandma had compared the British Blockade in WWI with Harris' Terror Bombing in WWII and found the blockade to be worse. He said that her opinion might be different if she or someone she knew was hit by a bomb or something like that. In other words, such things are subjective for the people involved and their OWN degree of personal suffering.

Now, YOU choose to bring up your Grandma as an example and he was therefore entirely justified, in his curmudgeonly way, of pointing out the obvious. So do lighten up, will you?

As another example, Lord Cherwell's famous report determined for British strategists that if a person's neighbor was killed it was far LESS of a devastating psychological blow to him than if his own home were destroyed. A person can always get new neighbors but a home represent's a worker's life's work.

So even if families were not obliterated because they were hussled into the bomb-shelters by those brown-skirted fascist Blitz Maidens the worker's HOME would be. The psychological-effect was almost as severe, according to the Cherwell Report, as if one's family member were killed.

Of course the British plutocracy erroneously thought that they could cause a German revolution by dumping high-explosives and phosphorous onto German workers who would thus overthrow their Nazi leaders as the Russian workers and peasants had the Tsar. Apparently the British ruling classes thought that German workers did not know who it was that dropped the bombs on them. And it wasn't Hitler.

Thus, whether the Blitz is "worse" than the Blockade depends largely on one's circumstances, doesn't it? That's the trouble with anecdotes. Next time don't use a personal anecdote and then wax indignant if somebody, well, laughs in your face. With deepest respect to your folks who experienced those wars, by the way.

I had no relatives in WWII but here is my Grandfather who perished of starvation and disease in a Union POW camp in 1865.

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Post by Rob S. » 19 Mar 2002 03:19

America is Israel's lapdog. Right now I'm having a hard time sorting out my rationalizations for Bush's public attitude on Israel right now. While the population is partial to the palestinians when they're being invaded or butchered and what not, they have nothing but sympathy for the Israelis when a suicidebomber takes out a few people in a grocery store or something. the public doesnt like 'bad things'-bad thigns being any killing, any invading,etc and it can be said theres a good case for both the Israelis and Palestinians, so the public changes its veiw whenever somehting favors one or the other.


The media does play a good part in what people see, but even then so, I still don't believe that even the general American public is that ignorant.

The biggest thing in tainting education of this matter is that most people who argue against Israel are illegite anti-semetics. I'm not here to insult what you believe, but in my experience changing somebodies mind is better done through un-biased information and respect. Neo-nazi organizations are disrespectful and biased against Jews. Instead of looking at the immediate matter and solving the problem unbiasedly, they take an attitude of I told you so.

I believe that Israel is not justified in invading Palestine threatening to overthrow Arafat.

But which would be a better way to convey this?

1. Hitler was right, the international Jew is the enemy of the world. Greedy evil dirty imperialistic Jews invading Palestine without any reason.... Don't say we didn't warn you!

or

2. Occupying Palestinian terrority and killing Palestinian social-architects that have no direct correlation with muslim terrorists is unfair and unjust. The Palestinian government did not commit the suicide bombings. Instead of invading; the nation of Israel should've began working together with Palestine to stop terrorism, instead of blaming Palestine for terrorism not linked with the Gov't or military.

Honestly, it's your unwillingness to be politically correct or respectful that will be the death of your movement in the end.

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Post by Rob S. » 19 Mar 2002 03:23

Sorry for the off-topic marcus :oops:

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