How [many] Jews were killed for real?

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Post by David Thompson » 12 Oct 2003 04:07

Age takes its toll on us all. Now let's get back on topic.

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Christoph Awender
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Post by Christoph Awender » 12 Oct 2003 07:29

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Christoph .... you obviously don't read well.I never denying the Wannsee conference because i simply don't know about this matter.... why am i not informed ? Just because most holocaustists books shows different versions,wich is not my guilt ! So i metionate the anecdote about the house just to demostrate the many existing different versions,Thompson.


Ah yes you are right Ostuf. I cannot read well, sorry for that!!! You of course never wrote that the Wannsee conference probably never took place.

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Well,well ,well....a really good question. But first let's see the numbers of living jews according the the so -called ''Wannsee Conference'':

- It's not even sure if the wannsee conference happened at all...lot of theories,documents ,and even movies (''Conspiracy'') ,but not even the holocaustists agree on this fact.For instance the ''Conspiracy '' movie says that the House in Wannsee belonged to deported jews.... but in a book i have on WW2 ,it's said that this house was the former german office of the Interpol !

- Even if the Wabnnsee conference took place ,we are not sure what was the real topic of the conference ,and there is also differences about who was there and who wasn't ....


\Christoph

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Post by Mostowka » 12 Oct 2003 16:30

Will add my 5 cents to this all to common discussion on historical forums were people with little or very allround knowledge try to question 50 years of dedicated holocaust researching.

According to the most renown holocaust researcher ever, Raul Hilberg the number of killed Jews totals to about 5,1 million. In his monumental work "The destruction of the European Jews" (a total of 3 very thick volumes) he descibes the very process of the holocaust as well as presenting very good evidence of it and the extent that has so often been debated.

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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 15 Oct 2003 03:14

I beg your pardon ,Awender,but you always read not well :
I wrote ''it's not even sure if...'' - i didn't wrote '' it never happened''...
i know my english is far from perfect ,but you maliciously misquoted me.

Now let's see a well documented case ,the one of Mrs.Simone Weil.

In 1976,as a liberal jewish congresswoman ,in France,she promoted and legalized abortion.Since this time,it is estimated that 7 million unborn babies were killed.My own people holocaust !
Why do i mentionate she is jewish,and what this have to do with this topic ? Keep reading ....

Because she is not just a jewish particular with bad politic ,as it exist catholic,protestants,buddhist,or moslems (lots of those ones,lately,btw...) with bad politics.
But she is an active jewish militant,being deported at Auschwitz at age 17 in 1944.... she is member of the WIZO (Women International Zionist Organization) - she run the french chapter- , acquainted with the LICRA (french ADL) and the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

Strangely,she promoted abortion for french people,but she oppose abortion for judaism, ounderstand if you can....

And then,in 1977,the scandal exploted ! She was then,the minister of Health within Prime minister Jacques Chirac govt.(the today french president).... - without to be a medic,btw... - (things that happens in a democracy.We had during some times a defense minister who had deserted during his military service.... at his back ,the militaries called him ''the unknown soldier''.) :
A french universitarian professor ,visiting Auschwitz,saw her name in some documents there ,as ''killed in Auschwitz in 1945'' !!!
At first,she denied the rumors. When a photocopy appeared in some newspapers,she gave a speech in the congress saying it was surely a mistake of the association of former deporteds.

And you want me to believe those peoples ??

Now,i wonder : how many like her ???

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Post by John W » 15 Oct 2003 04:32

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:I beg your pardon ,Awender,but you always read not well :
I wrote ''it's not even sure if...'' - i didn't wrote '' it never happened''...
i know my english is far from perfect ,but you maliciously misquoted me.
Actually Mr. Charlemagne, I had similar reaction to the one Mr. Awender displayed. So I think it is more than one person on this forum who interpreted your post in this fashion 9as the one shown illustrated by Mr. Awender).

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:In 1976,as a liberal jewish congresswoman ,in France,she promoted and legalized abortion.Since this time,it is estimated that 7 million unborn babies were killed.My own people holocaust !
The ethical debate over abortion is a long and winding road with excellent points of reasoning for both sides Mr. Charlemagne. I'd love to debate it with you sometime but I don't see it occuring in this forum as it is Off Topic.

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:But she is an active jewish militant,being deported at Auschwitz at age 17 in 1944.... she is member of the WIZO (Women International Zionist Organization) - she run the french chapter- , acquainted with the LICRA (french ADL) and the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
What does her having to be a member of the ADL, WIZO have to do with her being a "militant" ? I'm sure you know what a militant is now, Mr. Charlemagne?

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Strangely,she promoted abortion for french people,but she oppose abortion for judaism, ounderstand if you can....
Why do you differentiate between Jews and French peoples Mr.Charlemagne? I fail to see the relevencey of this.

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:And then,in 1977,the scandal exploted ! She was then,the minister of Health within Prime minister Jacques Chirac govt.(the today french president).... - without to be a medic,btw... -
Mr. Charlemagne, you don't have to be trained in the field of medicine to run a hospital successfully. I can draw a parallel to Government in a similar fashion.

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:A french universitarian professor ,visiting Auschwitz,saw her name in some documents there ,as ''killed in Auschwitz in 1945'' !!! At first,she denied the rumors. When a photocopy appeared in some newspapers,she gave a speech in the congress saying it was surely a mistake of the association of former deporteds.
She denies rumours. Then a photocopy appears in a newspaper (Therefore it MUST be true!!! :roll: ) Then she makes the plausible argument that it must be an identity mistake. What is so hard to believe?

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:And you want me to believe those peoples ??
Now,i wonder : how many like her ???
You make your judgement on about almost 50 years of research on such flimsy grounds?

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Post by neugierig » 15 Oct 2003 04:33

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:
“Now,i wonder : how many like her ???”

How many indeed? The difficulty, however, with this particular event is, one can only find people who want to be found.

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Post by Redbaron1908 » 15 Oct 2003 12:14

Hello all,

I too toook the same viewpoint as Mr Awender and John W

Actually Mr. Charlemagne, I had similar reaction to the one Mr. Awender displayed. So I think it is more than one person on this forum who interpreted your post in this fashion 9as the one shown illustrated by Mr. Awender).

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Post by The Dream of Germania » 15 Oct 2003 13:33

Ostuf Charlemagne wrote:Well,well ,well....a really good question. But first let's see the numbers of living jews according the the so -called ''Wannsee Conference'':

- It's not even sure if the wannsee conference happened at all...lot of theories,documents ,and even movies (''Conspiracy'') ,but not even the holocaustists agree on this fact.For instance the ''Conspiracy '' movie says that the House in Wannsee belonged to deported jews.... but in a book i have on WW2 ,it's said that this house was the former german office of the Interpol !

- Even if the Wabnnsee conference took place ,we are not sure what was the real topic of the conference ,and there is also differences about who was there and who wasn't ....

- If everything is true,there is always the fact that i wonder how they figured this number of jews in France. There is 66,000 jews in France TODAY and between 50/ or 60,000 were deported during the war ( most didn't died in deportation) so......... there is only 66,000 of their sons,grandsons......??????????????

About the Holocaust number..... it's seems we have definitely an inflation with the years...just like the $ in poor third world coutries !
: - when i was a child in school the ''oficial'' number was 2,700.000
(deads jews in the KZ )

- then in a book ''El Tercer Reich'' Edit.Bruguera ,Spain 1980,spanish translation of german original from 1965,it's said : 4.000.000

- then Mr. Wiesenthal showed up with the biased number of 6.000.000. jews and 5 millions ''goims''......

Personally i don't know. Neither do i give a shit. But yes,they get an inflation,there.... it's surely the best way to provocate revisionism.At last Mrs Holocaustits will have to be smarter and agree on a standard number.


Well, I'm not going to touch the numbers side of the genocidal practices of the Third Reich, but I did notice a very interesting and insightful point made by my friend Charlemagne here.

It is a phenomena that I have noticed at least a dozen times in various forms, but always delivered in more or less the same style.

If you are a child, and you fall down and hurt your knee, what do you tell your mother in order to get the maximum amount of attention and affection? That it hurt a little? Or it hurt alot? Naturally, being a pragmatic little bastard, I always opted for the latter.

And so it is with the Holocaust Industry.*

It is, seemingly, not enough that the Third Reich killed all these innocent people. We, the viewing audience, are so thick-headed in the opinion of the opinion/film-makers that we need to be lied to, just so that we will understand just how truly awful Hitler and his chums were.

Take that trashy "Hitler: Rise of Evil" telecrapfest. Hey, here's this guy that wants to butcher women and kiddies in the millions, but no... we don't think you will be sufficiently hate-filled in reaction. So what do we have Hitler doing every five minutes? Beating the shit outta a little dog. Yeah, yeah, before anyone says it, I've seen the blondi film where the dog has servile body-language to his master. According to Speer (whom I trust on such a trivial issue) it behaved that way because Hitler vehemently insisted that the animal should only play with him, be fed by him... etc. I had a nan with a little dog that only hung out with her and was fed by her too. It was very servile with her too. Not once did I see her give it a good kicking.

It's the same deal with the movie 'Conspiracy'. The house was designed and built by an immigrant Swiss (a Gentile) who had moved to Germany and died just before the start of the war. No previous Jewish owner whatsoever.

Why do this? Well, isn't it obvious? Because that way, we marvellously artful film-makers can front an artistic sub-meaning. You know--one of those things that ridiculous movie 'Max' was filled with, start to finish. Not only are these demonic fellows plotting the genocide of nearly an entire people, but they are so utterly guiltless, crass and tasteless that they have to conduct the meeting in the place where once little Jewish feet scampered around, perhaps playing hide and seek under the dining table.

So we are left with the subconscious impression that even now, a family of innocent Jews are being shipped off the the east, with only memories of the wonderful home they once dwelt within.

Sad that the very people that consider themselves the guardians of the sacred trust of contemporary remembrance themselves constantly devalue what was, plain and simple, all on its own, a horrific tragedy.

*I use the phrase 'Holocaust Industry not as an anti-semitic slur, but in homage to a great Jewish Historian who not only wrote the ground-breaking book on the topic, but also coined the phrase itself.

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Post by Mostowka » 15 Oct 2003 14:59

Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 3:14 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now let's see a well documented case ,the one of Mrs.Simone Weil.

In 1976,as a liberal jewish congresswoman ,in France,she promoted and legalized abortion.Since this time,it is estimated that 7 million unborn babies were killed.My own people holocaust !
Why do i mentionate she is jewish,and what this have to do with this topic ? Keep reading ....

Because she is not just a jewish particular with bad politic ,as it exist catholic,protestants,buddhist,or moslems (lots of those ones,lately,btw...) with bad politics.
But she is an active jewish militant,being deported at Auschwitz at age 17 in 1944.... she is member of the WIZO (Women International Zionist Organization) - she run the french chapter- , acquainted with the LICRA (french ADL) and the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

Strangely,she promoted abortion for french people,but she oppose abortion for judaism, ounderstand if you can....

And then,in 1977,the scandal exploted ! She was then,the minister of Health within Prime minister Jacques Chirac govt.(the today french president).... - without to be a medic,btw... - (things that happens in a democracy.We had during some times a defense minister who had deserted during his military service.... at his back ,the militaries called him ''the unknown soldier''.) :
A french universitarian professor ,visiting Auschwitz,saw her name in some documents there ,as ''killed in Auschwitz in 1945'' !!!
At first,she denied the rumors. When a photocopy appeared in some newspapers,she gave a speech in the congress saying it was surely a mistake of the association of former deporteds.

And you want me to believe those peoples ??

Now,i wonder : how many like her ???


Ostuf Charlemange:

Well what in the name of the heavens does this have too do with the number of people killed in the holocaust? One of the most known cases of "fakers" was Wilkomirski, a Swiss citizen, described in the book "The Holocaust Industry".

What is an active Jewish militant, and what does such a person have to do with Wizo ?

I really doubt that there only was one "Simone Weil" deported and killed during the Holocaust. Were there any more evidenced that it was in fact her stolen identity ?

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Post by michael mills » 15 Oct 2003 15:12

I really doubt that there only was one "Simone Weil" deported and killed during the Holocaust. Were there any more evidenced that it was in fact her stolen identity ?


"Weil" is her married name; at the time of her deportation she was Simone Jacob.

Simone Jacob was not one of those entered into the Auschwitz register from the transport on which she arrived. The general assumption made is that all arrivals not so registered were immediately killed in the gas-chambers. Thus, with this particular transport, post-war calculations of the number gassed consisted of the total number in the transport less those registered; but that calculation included Simone Jacob, who was neither registered nor gassed.

The significance of the experience of Simone Jacob is that not all persons arriving on transports who were not registered were gassed. Some. like Jacob, were taken into the camp and lived there without being registered. the number in that postion is unknown.

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6MILLION NUMBER INFO

Post by code yellow » 16 Oct 2003 23:11

There is much information developed in recent years from documented evidence previously "overlooked" in archives around the world.The 6 million number was first used in Jewish propaganda campaigns in 1916 during the Imperial war.It eventualy became a rumor,but had little creadence till it was revived and used after the second world war.Today,very few historians,including holocaust experts,the Auschwitz state museum,and the most prominent holocaust historian himself,Raul Hilberg,no longer agree with this number.Most experts on the subject have lowered the number to 1.4 million.Go on line to IHR(institute for historical reveiw),andCODOH(Bradley Smith).There,you will find info concearning this subject.

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Re: 6MILLION NUMBER INFO

Post by Xanthro » 17 Oct 2003 00:36

code yellow wrote:There is much information developed in recent years from documented evidence previously "overlooked" in archives around the world.The 6 million number was first used in Jewish propaganda campaigns in 1916 during the Imperial war.It eventualy became a rumor,but had little creadence till it was revived and used after the second world war.Today,very few historians,including holocaust experts,the Auschwitz state museum,and the most prominent holocaust historian himself,Raul Hilberg,no longer agree with this number.Most experts on the subject have lowered the number to 1.4 million.Go on line to IHR(institute for historical reveiw),andCODOH(Bradley Smith).There,you will find info concearning this subject.


First, I'll wager money that you'll be banned with two days.

Second, everything you said is incorrect.

During WWI, it was stated that a potential holocaust effective Europes 6 million Jews could occur because of the war. This was in a fund raising letter to get money for immigration. Nobody claimed they were actually killed.

The current 6 million number of estimated deaths is based on a number of factors, from train movements of prisoners into camps, and them never leaving, to the documented deaths in the East.

You saying look up information on the two best know Holocaust denial sites shows an incredible lack of knowledge on your part. Those sites exist simply to attack the Holocaust.

The name of this forum unfortunately attacks a certain Jew Hating breed of which you appear to be a member.

Mr. Thompson has the links readily available that will quickly show that your opinion on this matter is that of a childish brain and you can then scurry back to the hole you crawled out of.

Xanthro

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Post by David Thompson » 17 Oct 2003 02:27

code yellow -- Let's start with a question: Why do you think that the readers in this section of the forum should accept the Institute for Historical Review and Bradley Smith as trustworthy sources for anything?

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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 17 Oct 2003 05:28

And here i have to go again.....

Xanthro : You wager they will be kicked out...possible. But did this possibility makes you happy ??? Why ??? don't you like to debate with people who don't think like you ????

Mills : Right.Original name is jacob.

Thompson : I beg your pardon,pal, but maybe we can return what you said...after all you seems to take Kogon and the like for granted.

Deutsche Dreamer (too long to write your pseudo ! I'm leasy :D ) :

About the dog anecdote,you are right.... once a guy asked me how i could admire Hitler ( wich was funny : i don't admire Hitler !) , '' a man wich had only one testicle !''........ i answered : '' Be happy ... Think about what he would have done with two balls !'' :lol: :lol: :lol:

Now ,let be serious :

Since Rob and Awender don't read me well, i gone ,tomorrow, write my 2 cents of what I DO THINK personally on this subject.....so after that ,maybe nobody will misquote me.

Meanwhile,since they don't ounderstand why i mentionate Simone Weil,i scan some of my documents ( and only this one...the other ones will be published in my book !)

It reads : LYON ( a french city) French Republic.
Ministery of veterans and war victims- etc.......

Decision number 21.259 ----- date is 20 july in Paris (stamp of the year is not apparent but because of others documents i know it's between 1959 and 1968 ; all these documents i have are from between)

'' It is denied the atribution of the tittle POLITICAL DEPORTED ,according to the law 48 - 404 from september 9th 1948.
The Minister of veterans and war victims ,with the advise of the National committee of deported and interned ''political'',decide that the atribution of the tittle of Political Deported of Miss LEVY , Jeannette,Antoinette.
Born: Jenuary 23th 1945 in Berlin (Germany)
Adress: Young Maids Home ,40,F.R.Roosevelt street - LYON - VI.
is denied for the following motive :
This person had suffered no detention since she was born after her mother was liberated of the camp where she was deproted.''


The mother was in Auschwitz,obviously not gased (thanks to Heaven) and the girl who born later tried to receive royalties from the govt. saying SHE was deported..... After the war i knew lots of people like that wich said they were in KZ. It was not true ,but i'm sure this made for to raise the holocaustist inflation.
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Post by Ostuf Charlemagne » 17 Oct 2003 05:33

It means also ,that,before Miss Levy , 21.259 other jews tried to figure falsely as being deported in KZ .....

No denial for the other ones ...but just the truth and demostration of the ''inflation''.

Yes Xanthro...your number is based on different factors...like this one.

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