How [many] Jews were killed for real?

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steve248
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Post by steve248 » 27 May 2016 17:09

I forgot to add to item 1 in the post above. Eichmann was not concerned with Soviet Jews yet his office, RSHA IV B4, appears regularly on the distribution lists of the daily Einsatzgruppen Situation Reports (Ereignismeldungen UdSSR) beginning in July or August 1941.

Boby
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Post by Boby » 27 May 2016 18:28

As many others Referate... even the OKW.

Cf. Ereignismeldung UdSSR Nr. 32 v. 24.7.1941 (41 Ausfertigungen)
http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/rsha/Am ... /0299.html

michael mills
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Post by michael mills » 31 May 2016 01:16

It is not my intention to try to rebut the figures given in Hoefle's telegram. As I wrote, they can be taken as a reliable indication of the total number Jews sent to the four camps under Globocnik's command and killed there. All I am questioning is whether the figures are absolutely accurate to the last digit, given the known conditions in the three extermination camps in particular, where the staff became very undisciplined and lazy.

Since the camp staff were massively pilfering the money and other belongings left by the arriving Jews, they were obviously not keeping an accurate record of the valuables that they were supposed to be sending back to the processing station at Lublin. I think it likely that they were not bothering to carefully count the arrivals on a regular basis, and none of the accounts by survivors seem to leave room for such a process to have taken place.

The few surviving reports by the police detachments guarding the transports from the places of origin to the various extermination centres suggest that the authorities despatching the transports made an estimate of the number of Jews loaded onto them and sent that estimate to the receiving camp along with the message that the transport was on its way. However, the number despatched was not necessarily the same as the number of arrivals, given that there were escapes during the journey.

For example, Captain Wessermann who commanded the guard detachment on a transport from Kolomyja to Belzec reported a large number of escapes due to the fact that the train was moving at a walking pace because the locomotive provided was very old, and furthermore the police at Kolomyja had allowed the Jewish artisans to bring their tools of trade, which they used to break out of the freight-cars. Eventually the guards ran out of ammunition shooting at the escapees and were reduced to throwing stones at them.
Scholars and historians state that Eichmann's office had nothing to do with the deportation of Polish Jews to the camps.
In my opinion that is quite correct, because the process of rounding up the Jews of the Generalgouvernement and sending them to the three extermination centres was not under the control of the RSHA, but that of Globocnik, who as SSPF-Lublin was directly responsible to Himmler through the HSSPF-Generalgouvernement Krueger, and was not under the authority of Heydrich.

It is quite likely that Himmler created the system of SS and Police Leaders directly responsible to him as a means of circumventing the RSHA under Heydrich, since he regarded the latter as a potential rival who would try to supplant him.

In his post-war statements to Sassen, Eichmann tells an interesting tale that suggests that Globocnik was acting on his own authority separately from the RSHA. Eichmann stated that Heydrich had told him that he had heard that Globocnik was killing Jews in the Lublin District, and had despatched him to Lublin to find out what was going on. According to Eichmann, Globocnik had asked for an ex post facto authorisation from Heydrich covering the Jews he had already killed, for which Eichmann gave an imprecise figure of between 150,000 and 250,000. Eichmann returned to Lublin bringing the authorisation, which Globocnik locked in his safe. Eichmann also brought subsequent authorisations from Heydrich for further killings.

The background to that story is that at the beginning of the war Heydrich had reserved for himself the sole right to authorise "Sonderbehandlung", that is execution of individuals or groups of people without any preceding judicial process. According to an order issued to all Security Police offices, any official wanting to carry out a Sonderbehandlung had to submit an application to Heydrich, identifying the person or group of persons to be subjected to Sonderbehandlung, and the reason for doing so.

An example of the correct procedure being followed is the establishment of the extermination centre at Chelmno, which resulted from an application made to both Himmler and Heydrich in approximately October 1941 by the Reichsstatthalter for Reichsgau Wartheland, Arthur Greiser, for permission to apply Sonderbehandlung to 100,000 Jews of that region, about one-third of the total. The application was made to both Himmler and Heydrich, since the former as Reichskommissar fuer die Festigung deutschen Volkstums had the authority to designate a particular population group as constituting a danger to the German people, while the latter as head of the RSHA had sole authority to authorise the Sonderbehandlung of a designated group of persons.

The course of events described by Eichmann to Sassen suggests that Globocnik, unlike Greiser, had proceeded to organise the "Sonderbehandlung" of the Jews of the Lublin District assessed as unusable for labour (some 60% according to the Goebbels diary entry of 27 March 1942), without obtaining the requisite authorisation from Heydrich, most probably on the basis of an order or authorisation from Himmler alone. Eichmann's journey to Lublin would therefore have represented an attempt by Heydrich to regain control over the killings begun by Globocnik, since they represented a derogation from Heydrich's sole authority over the so-called "Fianl Solution to the Jewish Problem", which he considered had been given to him by Goering and confirmed at the Wannsee Conference in January 1942.

In any case, there was only a period of three months, from March to the end of May 1942, during which Heydrich could have tried to bring Globocnik's operation under his control. With Heydrich's assassination at the end of May, Himmler took over personal command of the RSHA, and removed it from any authority over the killing of Jews in the Generalgouvernement and occupied Soviet territory.
No other RSHA IV section has been identified as responsible for Polish evacuations/deportations therefore Eichmann's IV B4 had this responsibility.


That is a mistaken conclusion, since the RSHA had no authority over the extermination process in the Generalgouvernement itself, only over the deportation of Jews from Germany and German-occupied countries into the Generalgouvernement.
....the Jewish specialist (Judenreferent) at each Sipo and SD office knew what to report and where to send their reports.
So far as I know, there were no officers of Eichmann's RSHA office IV-B-4 stationed at the Sipo offices in the Generalgouvernement. Hoefle and the other members of the Einsatzstab Reinhardt stationed at Globocnik's headquarters at Lublin were not part of Eichmann's organisation, and not under his command, but solely that of Globocnik.
I forgot to add to item 1 in the post above. Eichmann was not concerned with Soviet Jews yet his office, RSHA IV B4, appears regularly on the distribution lists of the daily Einsatzgruppen Situation Reports (Ereignismeldungen UdSSR) beginning in July or August 1941.
The Einsatzgruppen Reports were addressed to RSHA office IV-A-1, which had the function of combatting Communism. That shows that the Einsatzgruppen were under the command of office IV-A-1, and that their function was to eliminate the Communist apparatus in the Soviet Union, as is clearly shown by the report of 17 September 1941 from EG-C. Eichmann's office received the reports only for information, in the same way as many other offices.

Boby
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Post by Boby » 31 May 2016 12:52

The daily EM were compiled at IV A 1, not directly send to Berlin (i.e, as a full report). They gathered the info from all places, Germany and occupied territories, and then wrote the summary report.

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