How [many] Jews were killed for real?

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steve248
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Post by steve248 » 27 May 2016 17:09

I forgot to add to item 1 in the post above. Eichmann was not concerned with Soviet Jews yet his office, RSHA IV B4, appears regularly on the distribution lists of the daily Einsatzgruppen Situation Reports (Ereignismeldungen UdSSR) beginning in July or August 1941.

Boby
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Post by Boby » 27 May 2016 18:28

As many others Referate... even the OKW.

Cf. Ereignismeldung UdSSR Nr. 32 v. 24.7.1941 (41 Ausfertigungen)
http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/rsha/Am ... /0299.html

michael mills
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Post by michael mills » 31 May 2016 01:16

It is not my intention to try to rebut the figures given in Hoefle's telegram. As I wrote, they can be taken as a reliable indication of the total number Jews sent to the four camps under Globocnik's command and killed there. All I am questioning is whether the figures are absolutely accurate to the last digit, given the known conditions in the three extermination camps in particular, where the staff became very undisciplined and lazy.

Since the camp staff were massively pilfering the money and other belongings left by the arriving Jews, they were obviously not keeping an accurate record of the valuables that they were supposed to be sending back to the processing station at Lublin. I think it likely that they were not bothering to carefully count the arrivals on a regular basis, and none of the accounts by survivors seem to leave room for such a process to have taken place.

The few surviving reports by the police detachments guarding the transports from the places of origin to the various extermination centres suggest that the authorities despatching the transports made an estimate of the number of Jews loaded onto them and sent that estimate to the receiving camp along with the message that the transport was on its way. However, the number despatched was not necessarily the same as the number of arrivals, given that there were escapes during the journey.

For example, Captain Wessermann who commanded the guard detachment on a transport from Kolomyja to Belzec reported a large number of escapes due to the fact that the train was moving at a walking pace because the locomotive provided was very old, and furthermore the police at Kolomyja had allowed the Jewish artisans to bring their tools of trade, which they used to break out of the freight-cars. Eventually the guards ran out of ammunition shooting at the escapees and were reduced to throwing stones at them.
Scholars and historians state that Eichmann's office had nothing to do with the deportation of Polish Jews to the camps.
In my opinion that is quite correct, because the process of rounding up the Jews of the Generalgouvernement and sending them to the three extermination centres was not under the control of the RSHA, but that of Globocnik, who as SSPF-Lublin was directly responsible to Himmler through the HSSPF-Generalgouvernement Krueger, and was not under the authority of Heydrich.

It is quite likely that Himmler created the system of SS and Police Leaders directly responsible to him as a means of circumventing the RSHA under Heydrich, since he regarded the latter as a potential rival who would try to supplant him.

In his post-war statements to Sassen, Eichmann tells an interesting tale that suggests that Globocnik was acting on his own authority separately from the RSHA. Eichmann stated that Heydrich had told him that he had heard that Globocnik was killing Jews in the Lublin District, and had despatched him to Lublin to find out what was going on. According to Eichmann, Globocnik had asked for an ex post facto authorisation from Heydrich covering the Jews he had already killed, for which Eichmann gave an imprecise figure of between 150,000 and 250,000. Eichmann returned to Lublin bringing the authorisation, which Globocnik locked in his safe. Eichmann also brought subsequent authorisations from Heydrich for further killings.

The background to that story is that at the beginning of the war Heydrich had reserved for himself the sole right to authorise "Sonderbehandlung", that is execution of individuals or groups of people without any preceding judicial process. According to an order issued to all Security Police offices, any official wanting to carry out a Sonderbehandlung had to submit an application to Heydrich, identifying the person or group of persons to be subjected to Sonderbehandlung, and the reason for doing so.

An example of the correct procedure being followed is the establishment of the extermination centre at Chelmno, which resulted from an application made to both Himmler and Heydrich in approximately October 1941 by the Reichsstatthalter for Reichsgau Wartheland, Arthur Greiser, for permission to apply Sonderbehandlung to 100,000 Jews of that region, about one-third of the total. The application was made to both Himmler and Heydrich, since the former as Reichskommissar fuer die Festigung deutschen Volkstums had the authority to designate a particular population group as constituting a danger to the German people, while the latter as head of the RSHA had sole authority to authorise the Sonderbehandlung of a designated group of persons.

The course of events described by Eichmann to Sassen suggests that Globocnik, unlike Greiser, had proceeded to organise the "Sonderbehandlung" of the Jews of the Lublin District assessed as unusable for labour (some 60% according to the Goebbels diary entry of 27 March 1942), without obtaining the requisite authorisation from Heydrich, most probably on the basis of an order or authorisation from Himmler alone. Eichmann's journey to Lublin would therefore have represented an attempt by Heydrich to regain control over the killings begun by Globocnik, since they represented a derogation from Heydrich's sole authority over the so-called "Fianl Solution to the Jewish Problem", which he considered had been given to him by Goering and confirmed at the Wannsee Conference in January 1942.

In any case, there was only a period of three months, from March to the end of May 1942, during which Heydrich could have tried to bring Globocnik's operation under his control. With Heydrich's assassination at the end of May, Himmler took over personal command of the RSHA, and removed it from any authority over the killing of Jews in the Generalgouvernement and occupied Soviet territory.
No other RSHA IV section has been identified as responsible for Polish evacuations/deportations therefore Eichmann's IV B4 had this responsibility.


That is a mistaken conclusion, since the RSHA had no authority over the extermination process in the Generalgouvernement itself, only over the deportation of Jews from Germany and German-occupied countries into the Generalgouvernement.
....the Jewish specialist (Judenreferent) at each Sipo and SD office knew what to report and where to send their reports.
So far as I know, there were no officers of Eichmann's RSHA office IV-B-4 stationed at the Sipo offices in the Generalgouvernement. Hoefle and the other members of the Einsatzstab Reinhardt stationed at Globocnik's headquarters at Lublin were not part of Eichmann's organisation, and not under his command, but solely that of Globocnik.
I forgot to add to item 1 in the post above. Eichmann was not concerned with Soviet Jews yet his office, RSHA IV B4, appears regularly on the distribution lists of the daily Einsatzgruppen Situation Reports (Ereignismeldungen UdSSR) beginning in July or August 1941.
The Einsatzgruppen Reports were addressed to RSHA office IV-A-1, which had the function of combatting Communism. That shows that the Einsatzgruppen were under the command of office IV-A-1, and that their function was to eliminate the Communist apparatus in the Soviet Union, as is clearly shown by the report of 17 September 1941 from EG-C. Eichmann's office received the reports only for information, in the same way as many other offices.

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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Post by Boby » 31 May 2016 12:52

The daily EM were compiled at IV A 1, not directly send to Berlin (i.e, as a full report). They gathered the info from all places, Germany and occupied territories, and then wrote the summary report.

NickA
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Re: Some books really deserve the dustbin.

Post by NickA » 12 Jan 2022 12:06

gaussianum wrote:
01 Feb 2006 20:08
What I've said is no different than what David Thompson says in almost every thread in this forum:" Back up your claims", "What are your sources?". This is what historians do. So, a book which does not substantiate its claims is historically worthless.
I don't want to spam the Forum but I cannot get to the bottom of something from the book by Deborah Lipstadt "Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory".

On the cover of that book (though strangely, not inside that I can find!) it states that Holocaust Deniers are:
"those who insist that the death of six million Jews in Nazi concentration camps is nothing but a hoax perpetrated by a powerful Zionist conspiracy"
This precise wording was picked up thousands of times in Google Search when I first saw it (though the ghits have mysteriously dropped to 92 now).

However, it seems to conflict with the generally accepted figures, being that "at least" 2.8 million Jews died in camps and up to 2.2 million died in the "Holocaust of Bullets" (plus some more bringing the number to around 6 million). Lipstadt's figure would suggest that the real scale of the Holocaust was 8 or 9 million.

Can you or anyone explain where this inflation comes from?

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wm
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Post by wm » 12 Jan 2022 12:37

That happens all the time. People don't understand history.
Even more, in this case, don't know the difference between death and concentration camps.
2.8 million Jews certainly didn't die in concentration camps.

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wm
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Post by wm » 16 Jan 2022 18:41

This Filmmaker Dares to Question the Figure of 6 Million Jewish Victims in WWII

In other words, scholars have known for years that six million is not an accurate number, but no one says so, so as not to damage the symbol.
“Yes, and they won’t say so either.”

nota
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Post by nota » 18 Jan 2022 00:20

really do not know how many people died
TOO MANY IN ANY CASE

but in my surf bum 1965 miami beach times as a teenager
there were lots of older people with the camp tats [numbers on the arm]
were every one only tattooed in the camps or ghetto's also or were non custody people also tattooed

there were so many on miami beach back then that it was rare to see older people WITHOUT THE TATS

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wm
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Post by wm » 18 Jan 2022 01:50

Please, nobody tattooed anybody in the ghettos. They did that only in Auschwitz.
About 200,000 people survived Auschwitz half of them Jews, the others mostly Poles.
The majority of them returned to their homes.
Assuming that 2000 of them emigrated to the US there was 1 survivor per 7000 people in the US post-war.
Last edited by wm on 18 Jan 2022 08:34, edited 1 time in total.

David Thompson
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Post by David Thompson » 18 Jan 2022 03:50

wm -- I assume you intended to write "tattooed" instead of "tasted" ("Please, nobody tasted anybody in the ghettos.") As for the rest of your post, if you have sources for your claims please post them.

nota
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Post by nota » 18 Jan 2022 05:03

yes they were common in south miami beach in the 60's
I am sure in far out of proportion to their part of the general population

but I thought the tattoo's were a camp thing but not only one camp [Auschwitz. a camp complex]
brings the question how high did the numbers go
also only the keep around people not the instant kills got the numbers ?

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wm
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Post by wm » 18 Jan 2022 08:37

The gassed people weren't prisoners of the camp so they weren't tattooed.

Linkagain
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?

Post by Linkagain » 18 Jan 2022 13:45

The Anglo-American committee 5,721,500
Raul HIlberg Des European jews 5.1 million
YAd VAshem NAmes Known 4,800,000

Sadly Im afriad Many Jewish Victiums who died in the Shoah those identity will only be "Knowns to G_D" {pregnet women who were killed before givng birth)..or Yizkoe memorial books in which a family is only listed by the father name and his family only recorded as "wife and children.." and then of course whose who died in Shoah outside of Europe Proper...Jews who died in the NAzi ally Japanese controlled Shanghi CHina Ghetto; or the Pro Axis Iraq Rebellion in which an estimated 200 Jews died.....one probelm is trying to reconcile numbers of reported Jews killed/Died with actual Jewish names of those known to have died ... for example the Babi Yar Program of 1941 reported 33,771 Jews killed in two days..yet at least 29 survived....yet only 3,000 listed at Yad Vashem (10 %) and even if there is some record.........for example of Menahen Begin family (5) three died in Shoah His father was shot and drowned in a river..his mother was dragged out of a hospital..his elder brother died...(means unknown)

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