How [many] Jews were killed for real?

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iwh
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Post by iwh » 31 Jan 2006 23:12

wolfangel wrote:My God,can we not all agree that millions were killed and let it be left at that?
Why the morbid fascination of exactly how many died?Is it any less evil that 5.8 million died,or 4.7 million,or 6.2 million?


With all respect, this is the topic of the thread.

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Re: Is Benz serious?

Post by gaussianum » 01 Feb 2006 00:15

iwh wrote:


If you are going to be objective, at least give both sides of the story. Quoted from the same source you mentioned;



If I wasn't objective, I wouldn't have given you the link, now would I? :)

In his foreword, Arthur Hertzberg asserts that "Benz's book is the first written by a German scholar of the younger generation to this story with exactness and absolute candor" (p. ix). I cannot attest to the accuracy of that statement, but I do agree that the book pulls no punches, is well written, and is thorough in its presentation.



Throughout the volume Benz drives home a number of points that both curriculum developers and teachers need to understand and convey to students, if the latter are to gain a clear and accurate understanding of the Holocaust. For example, speaking of the Wannsee Conference, Benz correctly states that "The total annihilation of the Jews throughout Europe, then, was pronounced as a matter that had long been decided upon, and at least half of those taking part in the discussion had a very clear idea of how the mass murders were being carried out or how they were yet to be executed" (pp. 6-7). Far too many curricula used at the secondary level either imply or overtly state that the purpose of the Wannsee Conference was to decide the fate of the Jews; rather, it was used to announce what had already been decided.


On a different note, Benz also does a good job of delineating the evolution of the killing process - from the gassing of the mentally and physically handicapped in the late 1930's, to the actions of the Einsatzgruppen in Poland and the Soviet Union, to the experimentation with the operation of the gas vans beginning in late 1941, and, ultimately, to the gas chambers in the death camps in the 1940's.


While I recommend this book to educators (particularly at the secondary and university levels), for it is informative and raises a number of critical issues worthy of serious consideration,


Not all negative then...


I never said it was all negative. But it is certainly not the work of a professional historian; substantiating your claims, and referencing your documents is rule zero for any serious historian. You have to make a distinction between historical and politically-motivated historical books. The latter case clearly places the work outside of science. By the way, this is not a problem affecting only history, but all the branches of science.

As to the shootings mentioned by Benz in Autumn 1943, this can actually be confirmed in Christopher Browning's book...Ordinary Men (Penguin) P225. Here we have a table of shootings carried out by Police Battalion 101. According to the chart, 16,000 jews were shot at Majdanek and 14,000 shot at Poniatowa in November 1943.


However, this takes us away from the main issue...the number of jews killed of which there is no mention in your source. Perhaps we can assume that he got these figures correct?



Unfortunately, we cannot assume that, because he doesn't substantiate his claims!

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iwh
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Re: Is Benz serious?

Post by iwh » 01 Feb 2006 00:32

gaussianum wrote:Unfortunately, we cannot assume that, because he doesn't substantiate his claims!


Well, we don't really know that do we, unless we have read the book. The Canadian critic makes no mention of Jewish numbers murdered. Secondly, I noticed that the book is a translation. Can anyone confirm if we have the same problems with the original German version?

His numbers come from a completely different book:

'Dimension des Volkermords:Die Zahl der Judischen Opfer des Nationalsocialismus'

Surely this is the source we need to study.

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Some books really deserve the dustbin.

Post by gaussianum » 01 Feb 2006 01:08

iwh wrote:
gaussianum wrote: noone can seriously claim that 6 million jews died. No serious present-day historian would stand by such a number.


Why not? Figures provided by Gutman and Rozett are estimated at 5,859,622. Figures given by Wolfgang Benz, which are the most recent, are at 6,269,097. According to Shermer and GroBman in their book Denying History, p 177, most historians believe these to be the most accurate.

Of course, we still do not know for certain the numbers of jews who died in the Soviet Union when the Germans invaded in 1941. It's quite possible that the numbers could be higher.


So, let me see if I'm getting this right, you are quoting a figure from Benz's book, that you haven't read, right?

What is the book that you are taking these numbers from? Is it "Denying History"? I can tell you from the start, without even having read a single page, that such a book is not a history book. As you can see from the title, the purpose of the book is not to clarify historical issues, but simply to analyse the psychological/political/moral issue of holocaust denial. It is taking a clear political aim, not a scientific one.

You are right, we should go to the sources, and set aside the political bickering, so that we can have a better look at historical facts.

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Post by nickterry » 01 Feb 2006 01:30

yes, let's do that gaussanium. Most of this thread is bickering, even when posts have involved discussing this or that book. Your discussion of Benz was a classic in that regard. Citing a review of a translation of a book that is in its original form an edited collection with individual scholars writing separate by-country studies --- gimme a break.

It so happens I posted a lengthy breakdown of revised figures for the number of Jews murdered on Soviet territory, yet evidently that was too weighty for anyone to respond to. I even discussed the methodologies used and source critical issues relating to how these numbers were arrived at by historians. But nobody joined in. Boo-hoo, I could care less to some extent.

But it does illustrate the futility of attacking this or that global statistic from Benz, Hilberg, Reitlinger, whoever, when the field of research has revised its knowledge and understanding of what happened in those territories about which we simply know infinitely more than in the 1950s or 1960s.

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Post by gaussianum » 01 Feb 2006 01:49

nickterry

I can´t see any bickering in any of my posts. It's quite the opposite, really.

The reason why noone responded to your figures is, perhaps, because they are news to everyone, so, noone knows how to respond, since you seem to be the only one who knows about them. But if true, and substantiated, they are certainly very important.

However, the Soviet Union has a lengthy tradition of misinformation. The Katyn massacre is a typical example. But I guess every nation has it, so, that's nothing new.

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Post by nickterry » 01 Feb 2006 11:29

gaussianum wrote:nickterry

I can´t see any bickering in any of my posts. It's quite the opposite, really.

The reason why noone responded to your figures is, perhaps, because they are news to everyone, so, noone knows how to respond, since you seem to be the only one who knows about them. But if true, and substantiated, they are certainly very important.

However, the Soviet Union has a lengthy tradition of misinformation. The Katyn massacre is a typical example. But I guess every nation has it, so, that's nothing new.



Since I explained the methods by which they were arrived at, and offered source-critical comments, and explained that many actions can be cross-referenced with German original reports..... what does your gut tell you about the truth of the figures?

Backtracking down the thread, I still find it funny that you jumped all over iwh for citing Benz when he was responding to you citing Shirer and Reitlinger, both authors published over 45 years ago.

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Re: Some books really deserve the dustbin.

Post by iwh » 01 Feb 2006 16:12

gaussianum wrote:So, let me see if I'm getting this right, you are quoting a figure from Benz's book, that you haven't read, right?


Correct. My source is secondary. However, if i have got the number wrong, then please feel free to correct me. You seem to be getting very excited about me using a source just to get a number. Anyone would think that I was criticising a book just by looking at the title. :)

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How meany Jews were killed for real?

Post by Denim Demon » 01 Feb 2006 16:33

Wolfangel, I know the topic is how many jews were killed, the point i tried to make was that the germans could have got their numbers mixed up, creating a situation which inflated the number of jews killed. this could perhaps explain how the figure got higher than it in fact were.

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Post by Topspeed » 01 Feb 2006 16:40

If I am correct around 1 000 jews were handed out to Germans in Estonia. The figure shown shows none.

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Re: How meany Jews were killed for real?

Post by iwh » 01 Feb 2006 16:45

Denim Demon wrote:Wolfangel, I know the topic is how many jews were killed, the point i tried to make was that the germans could have got their numbers mixed up, creating a situation which inflated the number of jews killed. this could perhaps explain how the figure got higher than it in fact were.


Could you please tell us how you came to this conclusion?

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handbags

Post by Topspeed » 01 Feb 2006 16:48

code yellow wrote:The 6 million number is an absolute fabrication used to support the gass chamber execution hoax.......This story was made up to support the 6 million number.Not to mention other stories like handbags,lampshades,and bars of soap also presented at the nuremberg trials that anyone knows were proven to be complete lies.If they made up all those lies,what makes you so sure the 6 million number is not also a lie?


The handbags and lambshades are false ? :o

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Re: How meany Jews were killed for real?

Post by nickterry » 01 Feb 2006 16:58

Denim Demon wrote:Wolfangel, I know the topic is how many jews were killed, the point i tried to make was that the germans could have got their numbers mixed up, creating a situation which inflated the number of jews killed. this could perhaps explain how the figure got higher than it in fact were.


If you've ever seen a German report of any kind, you'll know this argument is nonsense.

from the Auschwitz-Kalendarium/Chronicle, based on camp reports:

5.9.44 Sipo Den Haag 141
5.9.44 RSHA Westerbork 1019 (549 gassed)

the first entry corresponds to political, non-Jewish prisoners, the second to a transport of Jews, both from Holland, sent to the same camp, on the same day, probably on the same train.

or take a report from Einsatzgruppe B, recorded in Ereignismeldung Nr. 193, recording executions between 6 and 30 March 1942:

Sonderkommando 7a: 1657 (27 partisans/communits, 45 gypsies, 1585 Jews)
Sonderkommando 7b: 82 (19 partisan cooperators, 22 communists, 14 hetzerischer Aeusserungen , 27 Jews)
Sonderkommando Moskau: 52 (41 partisans, 4 thieves and poisoners, 7 Jews)
Einsatzkommando 8: 1609 (20 communists, saboteurs, NKVD agents, 5 thieves, 33 gypsies, 1551 Jews)
Einsatzkommando 9: 273 (85 partisans, 18 communists and criminals, 170 Jews)
Trupp Smolensk 60 (29 partisan helpers, 13 thieves, plunderers, agents and saboteurs, 18 Jews)


The same can be said for historians working after the fact. For France, there are extremely clear distinctions between prisoners deported to camps qua Jews and those deported qua resistance activities:

75,721 Jewish deportees to KZ Auschwitz 3% survived
86,827 political prisoners sent to KZs 40% survived

of the latter figure for French political prisoners:
- 65,324 French deported from occupation zone
- 6,609 deported from annexed territories of Alsace-Lorraine
- 6,391 French arrested inside 3rd Reich (foreign workers) and sent to KZs
- 6,737 Spanish republicans deported to Mauthausen
- 779 French deported for reasons of racial persecution not included in figure for Jews above
- 1,537 French deportees unknown origin (only 1.7%!!!)

(Le LIVRE-MEMORIAL des déportés de France arrêtés par mesure de répression et dans
certains cas par mesure de persécution 1940 - 1945)

Just a few examples which could be multiplied hundreds of times over.

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Post by gaussianum » 01 Feb 2006 19:49

nickterry wrote:
gaussianum wrote:nickterry

I can´t see any bickering in any of my posts. It's quite the opposite, really.

The reason why noone responded to your figures is, perhaps, because they are news to everyone, so, noone knows how to respond, since you seem to be the only one who knows about them. But if true, and substantiated, they are certainly very important.

However, the Soviet Union has a lengthy tradition of misinformation. The Katyn massacre is a typical example. But I guess every nation has it, so, that's nothing new.



Since I explained the methods by which they were arrived at, and offered source-critical comments, and explained that many actions can be cross-referenced with German original reports..... what does your gut tell you about the truth of the figures?

Backtracking down the thread, I still find it funny that you jumped all over iwh for citing Benz when he was responding to you citing Shirer and Reitlinger, both authors published over 45 years ago.


Anyone who finds the holocaust funny should have a serious mental disorder.

I jumped all over who?

Read again. I did not quote Shirer.

Reitlinger published over 45 years ago, and is a lot more credible than Benz, as I have already shown.

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Post by nickterry » 01 Feb 2006 20:04

Anyone who finds the holocaust funny should have a serious mental disorder.

I jumped all over who?

Read again. I did not quote Shirer.

Reitlinger published over 45 years ago, and is a lot more credible than Benz, as I have already shown.



You didn't quote Shirer? actually you very much quoted Shirer quoting Reitlinger. Why is that to be taken any more seriously than a translation of Benz thirty-five years later?

Which was precisely why I found it - this debate, not the Holocaust - funny, as in sardonic laugh at the contradictions and ironies.

Here was what you wrote on the previous page:


I'm sure this has been pointed out many times, but just for readers to know what the historical "norm" is (if there is one), let me just present what I've found regarding this issue. In William L. Shirer's: " The Rise and Fall of The Third Reich", 1960, Crest Book, page 1273, one can read:

" The figure given in the Nuremberg indictment was 5,700,000 and it tallied with the calculations of the World Jewish Congress. Reitlinger in his prodigious study of the Final Solution concluded that the figure was somewhat less--between 4,194,200 and 4,581,200."

The book was written in 1959/1960. Since then a lot of other studies have reviewed this number, but even if we ignore newer studies, noone can seriously claim that 6 million jews died. No serious present-day historian would stand by such a number.


I vote we move on to discussing hard facts with better sources than either Shirer, Benz or indeed Reitlinger or even Hilberg. There's plenty of recent researched work we could be bringing to this table.
Last edited by nickterry on 01 Feb 2006 20:10, edited 1 time in total.

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