How [many] Jews were killed for real?

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gaussianum
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Re: Some books really deserve the dustbin.

Postby gaussianum » 01 Feb 2006 20:08

iwh wrote:
gaussianum wrote:So, let me see if I'm getting this right, you are quoting a figure from Benz's book, that you haven't read, right?


Correct. My source is secondary. However, if i have got the number wrong, then please feel free to correct me. You seem to be getting very excited about me using a source just to get a number. Anyone would think that I was criticising a book just by looking at the title. :)


Sorry, where have you seen excitement?

In my good will, I was trying to give you sound advice on which literature to put more trust. What I've said is no different than what David Thompson says in almost every thread in this forum:" Back up your claims", "What are your sources?". This is what historians do. So, a book which does not substantiate its claims is historically worthless.

Also, a book which trys to substantiate its claims on other authors' unsubstantiated claims is worthless.

Can you prove that your book, called "Denying History" is not about holocaust denial?

But by all means, do not take my word for it, just ask the Moderator how historians work. Please, I insist.

Finally, I have absolutely no animosity whatsoever, towards you or any other reader in the forum, just because we may or may not agree.

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gaussianum
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Postby gaussianum » 01 Feb 2006 20:15

nickterry wrote:


I explained the methods by which they were arrived at, and offered source-critical comments, and explained that many actions can be cross-referenced with German original reports..... what does your gut tell you about the truth of the figures?



Maybe you prefer to think with your gut. I, however, use my brain. My gut never tells me anything.

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Postby David Thompson » 01 Feb 2006 20:19

Please drop the personal remarks and get back to a sourced discussion of the topic.

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gaussianum
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Postby gaussianum » 01 Feb 2006 20:27

Yes, I did quote William L. Shirer. Another reader mentioned someone called 'Schirer', which I presumed to be another author, and the one alluded by nickterry. Any contradictions or ironies should be attributed to the author, since I merely quoted from his work.

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wolfangel
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Postby wolfangel » 01 Feb 2006 20:49

gaussianum wrote:Yes, I did quote William L. Shirer. Another reader mentioned someone called 'Schirer', which I presumed to be another author, and the one alluded by nickterry. Any contradictions or ironies should be attributed to the author, since I merely quoted from his work.

I must apologise .I mis-spelled W.L. Shirer's name by adding a "c".
:roll:

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gaussianum
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Postby gaussianum » 01 Feb 2006 20:55

Everyone mis-types or mis-spells frequently, wolfangel, don't worry:)

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iwh
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Postby iwh » 01 Feb 2006 22:08

Let me give the exact source for the number proposed by Benz. Perhaps this will clarify the situation. The book, in German of course is:

Dimension des Volkermords:Die Zahl der Judischen Opfer des Nationalsocialismus (Munich: Deutscher Taschenbuch Verlag, (1991) chart 2

Benz gives a total of 6,269,097 jews murdered, together with the numbers mentioned by Reitlinger, Hilberg, Gutman and Rozett.
Last edited by iwh on 02 Feb 2006 00:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby nickterry » 01 Feb 2006 22:31

iwh - if you have the book, can you please post the breakdowns by country? And if possible, the names of the historians who wrote the individual articles on each country. That would jolt the discussion on about a light-year from its current morass.

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iwh
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Postby iwh » 01 Feb 2006 23:12

Well, as I said earlier, I do not have a copy of the original, but I do have a copy of the statistics from Shermer and GroBman. Although not a primary source, I have no reason to believe they are not accurate. They do note the editions and dates of publishing for each author. If you want them I can provide them.

I have typed the whole list, and am trying to find a way to get them on screen in a sensible list form. At the moment, every time I post the lists, it comes out a jumbled mess!!

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Postby nickterry » 01 Feb 2006 23:29

iwh - I'm seeing ya trying as I try to reply to this.

suggestion: put it into a Word table - that sometimes, but not always, preserves some spacing. or just use space bar a lot.
or else, run the sets following on from each other.

errk!

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Postby nickterry » 01 Feb 2006 23:38

Hilberg, 1991 German edition

refers to 1937 borders

Jewish deaths vis-a-vis current research
USSR over 700,000 < too low
Poland up to 3,000,000 needs to be broken down by region
Latvia 70,000
Lithuania up to 130,000
Estonia 1,000

Romania 270,000 border changes with Hungary
Hungary over 180,000 < too low/border changes
Czechoslovakia 260,000 border changes with Hungary, too high

Yugoslavia 60,000 < marginally too low
Albania n/a missing!
Greece 60,000

Italy 9,000 includes Rhodes

France 75,000
Luxemburg under 1000
Belgium 24,000
Netherlands over 100,000

Denmark n/a
Norway under 1,000

Germany over 120,000
Austria over 50,000
Danzig under 1,000

total 5,100,000


iwh - let's do them one at a time.

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iwh
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Postby iwh » 01 Feb 2006 23:49

Reitlinger
Poland 2,350,000-2,600,000
Soviet Union 700,000-750,000
Hungary 180,000
Romania 200,000-220,000
German Reich 160,000-180,000
Czechoslovakia 233,000-243,000
Netherlands 104,000
France 60,000-65,000
Austria 60,000
Yugoslavia 58,000
Greece 57,200
Belgium 25,000-28,000
Italy 8,500-9,500
Luxemburg 3,000
Norway >1,000
Denmark >100
TOTAL 4,578,800

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iwh
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Postby iwh » 01 Feb 2006 23:52

Guttman and Rozett
Poland 2,900,000-3,000,000
Soviet Union 1,211,000-1,316,500
Hungary 550,000-569,000
Romania 271,000-287,000
German Reich 134,500-141,000
Czechoslovakia 146,150-149,150
Netherlands 100,000
France 77,320
Austria 50,000
Yugoslavia 56,200-63,300
Greece 60,000-67,000
Belgium 28,900
Italy 7,680
Luxemburg 1,950
Norway 762
Denmark 60
TOTAL 5,859,622

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iwh
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Postby iwh » 01 Feb 2006 23:53

Benz
Poland 2,700,000
Soviet Union 2,100,000
Hungary 550,000
Romania 211,214
German Reich 160,000
Czechoslovakia 143,000
Netherlands 102,000
France 76,134
Austria 65,459
Yugoslavia 60,000-65,000
Greece 59,185
Belgium 28,518
Italy 6,513
Luxemburg 1,200
Norway 758
Denmark 116
TOTAL 6,269,097


Phew...not perfect formatting, but made it!!

nickterry
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Postby nickterry » 02 Feb 2006 01:37

and now for some commentary and other sources. Obviously it's difficult to track down things on every country. As more information comes in, it will be added via the edit function.

ITALY = 6291 certain deaths
5969 died in KZs, 837 survivors (= 14%)
322 killed in Italy (e.g. Ardeantine Caves)

= Benz is closest, but slightly overestimates. Everyone else overestimates. Confusion may stem from inclusion of Italian dominion of Rhodes (1,700 deported summer 1944)

from: STATISTICA GENERALE DEGLI EBREI VITTIME DELLA SHOAH IN ITALIA (1943-1945)
tratta dal volume di Liliana Picciotto: Il libro della memoria. Gli ebrei deportati dall’Italia (1943-1945). Ricerca della Fondazione Centro di Documentazione Ebraica Contemporanea, Mursia, Milano 2002. Pubblicazione posta sotto l’Alto Patronato del Presidente della Repubblica
=
http://www.cdec.it/memoria/tavole_intro.htm

GREECE
57-67,000 range spread - 60,000 logical
Mark Mazower, Inside Hitler's Greece, pp.256-7, reckons 60-65,000

YUGOSLAVIA
precise regional breakdowns from Jewish Historical Museum in Belgrade
Region Getötet 1941-45
Banat 3.800
Serbien 11.000
Kroatien, Slavonien 20.000
Vojvodina 13.500
Bosnien 10.000
Makedonien 6.982
Montenegro 288
Slowenien 1.300
Dalmatien 148
Kosovo 210
Total 67.228
= 81.74% of 82,242 prewar Jewish inhabitants of Yugoslavia

source: Geschichte und Ende der Juden in Serbien, von Wolf Oschlies, citing much recent Yugoslav research, http://www.shoa.de/content/view/218/230/


FRANCE
75,721 deportees, 3% survived
not including deaths in transit camps, reprisal executions
from: Livre-Memoire, via Serge Klarsfeld's exhaustive research; long nailed down, everyone barring Reitlinger agrees on ca. 75-77,000. Memorial books list almost all names.

BELGIUM
28,000 seems more plausible than 24,000, given that Reitlinger and Hilberg were working earlier. I've seen estimates as high as 32,000 (shoa.de site).

HOLLAND
102,000 is widely agreed on figure based on precise knowledge of deportation transports to
a) Auschwitz, b) Sobibor, c) Theresienstadt, d) Bergen-Belsen. The ferociously anal NIOD institute has definitely checked this one over. I've heard Dutch historians do statistical regression analysis of numbers of victims by province. No significant change from earlier calculations.

LUXEMBURG
1,200 from Benz hits a middle range. Interestingly Reitlinger, the earliest, gives the highest estimate.

NORWAY
758 - I have seen a lower figure of 735 on shoa.de. Essentially the same

DENMARK
60 or 116 - died in holding/transit camps (Theresienstadt, Bergen-Belsen), remainder of Danish Jews saved and transported to Sweden

GERMANY
160,000
- slightly higher than older figures, but there are manifold names projects underway.

AUSTRIA
65,459
- this figure backed up by DoeW centre in Vienna's ongoing names projects. Higher than earlier estimates, but we have better knowledge than we did in 1960.

for both German territories, see also Gottwaldt/Schulle.

CZECH REPUBLIC (= PROTECTORATE)
77,297 named victims, maximum 80,000

from: Pavel Skorpil, ‘Jüdische Opfer Nazi-Deutschlands aus den Böhmischen Ländern 1938 – 1945. Versuch einer Bilanz’, Theresienstädter Studien und Dokumente 1994
http://www.terezinstudies.cz/deu/ITI/pu ... de/skorpil

Figures exclude Sudetenland.
The Terezin Institute Initiative is a ferociously expert body of researchers.

SLOVAKIA
ca. 66,000 victims
- 57,628 deported in 1942, 13,000 at least in 1944-45, presume 5,000 survivors
- 1,000 executed in Slovakia during uprising

from: Eduard Nižňanský, ‚Holocaust In Der Slowakischen Historiographie Im 90. Jahren Des 20. Jahrhunderts’, http://www.goethe.de/ms/buk/archiv/material/niznan.doc

Niznansky is Slovak, not Jewish, incidentally. He wears a bow tie at conferences.

figures refer to wartime territory minus regions given to Hungary

= total approx 143,000 victims from CZECHOSLOVAKIA = Benz is closest. Earlier confusion stems from border changes on one hand (Slovakia conceded some territory to Hungary), and possible double-counting with Theresienstadt. Quite why Hilberg estimated 230,000 is beyond me.

ROMANIA
211,000
- older estimates blurred into Soviet Union (Moldova).

The US Holocaust Memorial Museum may have higher figures (250,000 is often mentioned) and better research because they've been into the Romanian archives, and the two senior directors of the historical centre there are Romanian specialists.

HUNGARY
550,000
- this Benz figure has been recently revised by Gerlach/Aly, Das letzte Kapitel.
- of ca. 450,000 Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz, 320,000 were gassed immediately upon arrival. The rest were deported onwards to KZs as slave labour.
122,000 Hungarian Jews, mostly women, out of 200,000 slave labourers, died in the camps before liberation. This includes a huge contingent sent via Austria into the Mauthausen system without ever entering Auschwitz
tens of thousands of Hungarian Jews died from 1941 onwards either during the Kamenets-Podolsk deportation or in the Hungarian labour battalions. Some small numbers died in Hungary itself.
= minimum 450,000

figures refer to wartime Hungary incl. Transylvania, parts of former Slovak territory. Exclude Yugoslav territory annexed to Hungary after 1941 (see above).

N.B. the controversial Fritjof Meyer article in Osteuropa miscounted the number of transports out of Hungary, reducing them from 141 to 60. Usual quasi-denier nonsense.

- differences in older estimates for Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania perhaps partially to do with border changes over 1938-1941. Collating them together produces a 'Habsburg' figure of 590,000+ and with Romania, at least 800,000. Older estimates were around this total or somewhat higher. But here was clearly a major concentration of victims.


Despite the best efforts of some , there is less and less controversy over the figures for the countries in northern, western, southern, central and south-eastern Europe listed above. Most estimates conform to each other reasonably closely.

There is still room to re-examine the figures and re-calculate the numbers (as I have done with especially Italy and Hungary, both reduced compared to Benz, whereas the sources I found raised it for Yugoslavia). But the Groessenordnung, as they say in German, is now essentially established.

NON-EAST EUROPEAN TOTAL = 1,370,293

(usual contradiction of adding more precise figures to estimates)

This figure of around 1.37 million makes sense, given that Romanian Jews died in situ = 250,000, and many Central European and some Western/Balkan Jews were deported to Poland or the Reichskommissariat Ostland = 100-150,000. I.e., at least 350-400,000 did not die at Auschwitz.

The calculation for Auschwitz death toll hovers around the million to 1.1 million mark, but includes a large number of Polish Jews from Ostoberschlesien and the Bialystok district, several hundred thousand.

Finally, the overall figure of 1.37 million includes at least 150,000 who died in 'ordinary' concentration camps in the last year of the war, mostly Hungarian Jewish women. To this should be added the death toll inside Theresienstadt, transit camps like Drancy or Westerbork, the shooting actions in Yugoslavia and deaths in Jasenovac.



Where difficulties start is in Poland and the Soviet Union. The rest of this is provisional until I can consult my library better.

POLAND
2,700,000
- uncertain whether the Benz figure refers to prewar Poland or the 1941 borders

This is where more precise regional breakdowns are needed, which means consulting better sources and being as accurate as possible.

'eingegliederte Ostgebiete' (annexed territories)
Ostoberschlesien (Upper East Silesia) - transports to Auschwitz. 100,000 Jewish pop. in 1939. Many survived inside Organisation Schmelt camps/Aussenlager of KZ Gross-Rosen until 1944, only to be decimated in the chaos of the final phase.

Warthegau (Lodz) - Lodz ghetto, Chelmno - min. 150,000 killed in Chelmno from whole area

Danzig-Westpreussen - few Jews present.

Zichenau - transports to Auschwitz.

Generalgouvernement:
Distrikt Radom
Distrikt Krakau
Distrikt Warschau
Distrikt Lublin
- deportations to Aktion Reinhard camps (Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor) and to Lublin-Majdanek complex.
- 'ghetto clearances' conducted with large-scale shootings ('local resettlements')

added after 22.6.41:
Distrikt Galizien - min. 500,000; shootings and deportations to Belzec.

annexed, but added after 22.6.41 to East Prussia
Distrikt Bialystok
- mostly contemporary Poland, parts modern-day Belarus. Shootings, ghettos, deportations to Auschwitz.

Here I must emphasise that it is not enough to engage in Zahlenspielerei with the camps; the killings 'an Ort und Stelle' inside several hundred Polish towns were every bit as bloody as what ensued in the Soviet Union; one need only remember the infamous Res.Pol.Batl. 101 at Jozefow in 1942.



SOVIET UNION
Benz figure 2,100,000

Altman figure 2,800,000, including Western Belarus and Western Ukraine,
includes
- min. 500,000 from Galicia
- 50 to 100,000 from Bialystok

will re-add figures from previous post after edit.

Benz's authors arrive at a total of 4.8 million Jews killed in Eastern Europe (Poland, Baltic States, Soviet Union)

Hilberg claims 3.7 million

Gutman and Rozett range from 4.1 million to 4.3 million

Reitlinger is the lowest with 3 million to 3.3 million

You want to split the difference? average = 3.9 to 4.025 million.

This average would place the total number of Jewish victims of the Nazi 'Final Solution' at appreciably above 5 million.

Going on the above figure for non-east European Jews and the average:
non-East European Jews 1.37 million
East European Jews 3.9 to 4.025 million
5.27 to 5.395 million

Reitlinger's estimate is definitely too low, Hilberg's is on the low side.

But I think there are ways of firming up this number. I also think that if all the recent research into the Final Solution in Poland and Soviet Union is synthesised, the number will be measurably higher.


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