Final proof

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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Scott Smith
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DENIER ! DENIER ! DENIER !

#16

Post by Scott Smith » 05 Jul 2002, 08:34

Sailor wrote:Roberto, a denier? My God! To put a label like that on my litlle buddy is worse than call him a sexual deviant!
Photograph of Evidence.
Nuremberg, 1946.


The Thomas Dodd Papers include photographs of some of the exhibits Dodd used to help prove the charge of crimes against humanity. Included are photographs of the shrunken head of a Pole executed for having sexual relations with a German woman; tattooed skin removed from the bodies of Buchenwald inmates; steel clubs manufactured by Krupp for use by concentration camp guards; and, shown here, soap manufactured from human corpses.

CLICK! Image CLICK! Image

CLICK! About Senator Thomas J. Dodd
CLICK! Image

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#17

Post by schroedinger » 05 Jul 2002, 14:21

Mensch Meyer wrote:
Roberto wrote: If Meyer had read the Nuremberg records, he would know that the IMT concluded on nothing other than isolated experimental attempts to manufacture soap from human fat:
After cremation the ashes were used for fertilizer, and in some instances attempts were made to utilise the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial manufacture of soap.
From the IMT's judgment, transcribed online under

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/p ... ersecution

Emphasis is mine.
ARE you denying that soap bars were presented as one of the most important and legitimate war crime allegations at the main Nuremberg trial? !!

I have no idea if such soap bars had been presented to the International Military Tribunal but I know for sure that there is a difference between something presented to a court and a judgment of a court.

Besides that, such soap bars for sure weren't "most important and legitimate war crime allegations", because they neither were "most important" nor would they have been presented under the war crimes indictment count but under the crimes against humanity count.


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#18

Post by Mensch Meyer » 05 Jul 2002, 17:55

schroedinger wrote:
Mensch Meyer wrote:
Roberto wrote: If Meyer had read the Nuremberg records, he would know that the IMT concluded on nothing other than isolated experimental attempts to manufacture soap from human fat:
After cremation the ashes were used for fertilizer, and in some instances attempts were made to utilise the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial manufacture of soap.
From the IMT's judgment, transcribed online under

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/p ... ersecution

Emphasis is mine.
ARE you denying that soap bars were presented as one of the most important and legitimate war crime allegations at the main Nuremberg trial? !!

I have no idea if such soap bars had been presented to the International Military Tribunal but I know for sure that there is a difference between something presented to a court and a judgment of a court.

Besides that, such soap bars for sure weren't "most important and legitimate war crime allegations", because they neither were "most important" nor would they have been presented under the war crimes indictment count but under the crimes against humanity count.
On one hand you claim that you "have no idea about the soap bars" and with the next breath you decide the degree of importance they had under the war crime indictments...

How about the Katyn case?

Obviously you need to inform yourself before you join such discussions. I can recommend that you begin with reading James J. Martin's "The Man who Invented 'Genocide," Katyn, pp 66. I can also recommend "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century," a staple reference on holocaust curricula, by Northwestern University Illinois professor Arthur Butz; also try "Beyond the Wall," by Elizabeth Pond; and any scholarly history source of WW II, or simply refer to the Encyclopedia Americana. Trust me - your Zionist propaganda that was good 50 years ago has become a dead dog - bury it. - Its smell is your liability...

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#19

Post by schroedinger » 05 Jul 2002, 19:02

Mensch Meyer wrote:
schroedinger wrote:
Mensch Meyer wrote:
Roberto wrote: If Meyer had read the Nuremberg records, he would know that the IMT concluded on nothing other than isolated experimental attempts to manufacture soap from human fat:
After cremation the ashes were used for fertilizer, and in some instances attempts were made to utilise the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial manufacture of soap.
From the IMT's judgment, transcribed online under

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/p ... ersecution

Emphasis is mine.
ARE you denying that soap bars were presented as one of the most important and legitimate war crime allegations at the main Nuremberg trial? !!

I have no idea if such soap bars had been presented to the International Military Tribunal but I know for sure that there is a difference between something presented to a court and a judgment of a court.

Besides that, such soap bars for sure weren't "most important and legitimate war crime allegations", because they neither were "most important" nor would they have been presented under the war crimes indictment count but under the crimes against humanity count.
On one hand you claim that you "have no idea about the soap bars" and with the next breath you decide the degree of importance they had under the war crime indictments...
There has been evidence of importance in the case. Soap bars weren't among this evidence.
Mensch Meyer wrote: How about the Katyn case?
A very good example again of what I have described above: There has been something presented to the court but the defendants were successful in rejecting the accusations. The Katyn massacre didn't find any mentioning in the judgment.

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Soft SOAP

#20

Post by Scott Smith » 05 Jul 2002, 19:52

schroedinger wrote:
Mensch Meyer wrote:
schroedinger wrote:
Mensch Meyer wrote:
Roberto wrote: If Meyer had read the Nuremberg records, he would know that the IMT concluded on nothing other than isolated experimental attempts to manufacture soap from human fat:
From the IMT's judgment, transcribed online under

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/p ... ersecution

Emphasis is mine.
ARE you denying that soap bars were presented as one of the most important and legitimate war crime allegations at the main Nuremberg trial? !!

I have no idea if such soap bars had been presented to the International Military Tribunal but I know for sure that there is a difference between something presented to a court and a judgment of a court.

Besides that, such soap bars for sure weren't "most important and legitimate war crime allegations", because they neither were "most important" nor would they have been presented under the war crimes indictment count but under the crimes against humanity count.
On one hand you claim that you "have no idea about the soap bars" and with the next breath you decide the degree of importance they had under the war crime indictments...
There has been evidence of importance in the case. Soap bars weren't among this evidence.
Mensch Meyer wrote: How about the Katyn case?
A very good example again of what I have described above: There has been something presented to the court but the defendants were successful in rejecting the accusations. The Katyn massacre didn't find any mentioning in the judgment.
In reading the IMT "judgement" above, it doesn't look like the Human Soap charge was rejected at all! It is alleged that the Germans attempted the commercial manufacture of Human Soap--which apparently falls under the shotgun charge of Crimes Against Humanity.
:?

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Hans
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Re: Soft SOAP

#21

Post by Hans » 05 Jul 2002, 23:07

Scott Smith wrote: In reading the IMT "judgement" above, it doesn't look like the Human Soap charge was rejected at all! It is alleged that the Germans attempted the commercial manufacture of Human Soap--which apparently falls under the shotgun charge of Crimes Against Humanity.
I've never understand why some people make such a fuss about "human soap". Nobody was trialed for making human soap. In summer 1948, the public prosecucter of Flensburg investigated the soap allegations, all accusations were refuted. Research of the Institut für Zeitgeschichte in Munich in 1960 showed that the Russian accusations in Nuremberg were unfounded (but didn't you claim that "the system had an interest in German guilt" and that nobody could speak against "Nuremberg"?)

The soap allegations have been utterly refuted by a German public prosecuter's office and historians. Also Raul Hilberg, a holocaust authority, writes that the human soap allegations were just a war-time rumor. So why does this topic always come in holocaust discussions? Let's see: the "human soap" stuff was discussed in seven threads so far at http://www.thirdreichforum.com. Only in one case somebody came up who was not sure what's about the allegations. In one case it was "Mensch Meyer" who brought the soap on topic . In the other five cases the soap allegation was introduced by one and the same "sceptic", obviously to exploit the (utterly refuted) allegation for his propagandist purpose.
The same picture emerges when you look for the human soap allegation in the old forum. My first hit was a thread opened by veteran member Scott Smith 01 - introducing something about the human soap allegation.
The second hit was a thread opened by Scott Smith 01 - now: old fighter, but still the same propaganda - ...introducing something about the human soap allegation. :roll:
Why do YOU keep the human soap allegation alive, Scott?
That's the brave "revisionist" chase...after a self-made paper tiger.

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#22

Post by Dan » 06 Jul 2002, 01:17

The soap allegations have been utterly refuted by a German public prosecuter's office and historians. Also Raul Hilberg, a holocaust authority, writes that the human soap allegations were just a war-time rumor. So why does this topic always come in holocaust discussions?
Hans, I think because Americans are always getting it thrown in our faces. Just the other night on the FOX cable channel the allegation was again made by a Jewish community leader in an argument with Al Sharpton, who is the second most powerfull Black civil rights advocate. The Jew's point was that Jews were victims as much as Blacks.

Regards
Dan

PS thanks for that paragraph, even on this board the allegation is still occasionally made that there were serious experiments in which soap was made from Jews.

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#23

Post by Mensch Meyer » 06 Jul 2002, 03:46

Dan wrote:
The soap allegations have been utterly refuted by a German public prosecuter's office and historians. Also Raul Hilberg, a holocaust authority, writes that the human soap allegations were just a war-time rumor. So why does this topic always come in holocaust discussions?
Hans, I think because Americans are always getting it thrown in our faces. Just the other night on the FOX cable channel the allegation was again made by a Jewish community leader in an argument with Al Sharpton, who is the second most powerfull Black civil rights advocate. The Jew's point was that Jews were victims as much as Blacks.

Regards
Dan
PS thanks for that paragraph, even on this board the allegation is still occasionally made that there were serious experiments in which soap was made from Jews.
What really matters is the truth. What are the known mistakes? Were gas chambers within the German borders mistaken allegation? How about Katyn - and soap bars made of humans? Were there SIX MILLION or not six million? What is true and what is not true? Or are the latest definitions: 1.) RUMORS; 2.) What is "IMPORTANT" or 3.) what is "NOT IMPORTANT?" -- AND - who decides what criteria is allowed to defame an entire people by "ERROR$ ?"

We have a glaring error of 3 million that is equal to 75% error on the number of deaths in Auschwitz. Many "historians" who knew about this, clearly did nothing about it. In other words the myth of the missing three million was allowed to stand. Check any travel books and other literature on Auschwitz and you will find the 4 million figure always quoted. Without exception.

The story about soap bars made of Jewish victims is within a sequence of the IMT procedings, beginning here:

21 June 46 Mr. Justice Jackson: Now I have certain information, which was placed in my hands, of an experiment which was carried out near Auschwitz and I would like to ask you if you heard about it or knew about it. The purpose of the experiment was to find a quick and complete way of destroying people without delay and trouble of shooting and gassing and burning as it had been carried out, and this is the experiment, as I was advised. A village, a small village was provisionally erected with temporary structures, and in it approximately 20,000 Jews were put. By means of this newly invented weapon of destruction these 20,000 people were eradicated almost instantaneously, and in such a way
that there was no trace IMT XVI page 529

18 Feb. 46 Jackson: (Exhibit) "This snapshot will help you to understand subsequent events. It represents a machine for grinding human bones. Next to the machine stands the prisoner of war who feeds the machine. It can grind the bones of 200 persons at a time..." IMT VII pages 549 and 550

11 Jan 46 "It was common practice to remove the skin from dead prisoners. It was commanded to do this on many occasions....It was chemically treated and placed in the sun to dry. After that it was cut into various sizes for use as saddles, riding breeches, gloves, house slippers, and ladies' handbags. Tattoed skin was especially valued by SS men." IMT V page 171

"After cremation the ashes were used for fertilizer, and in some instances attempts were made to utilize the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial manufacture of soap" IMT I page 252. ----etc

The above references are from the Nuremberg IMT trials as found in "Made in Russia, The Holocaust" by Carlos Whitlock Porter. The book was published by the World Jewish Congress. The other source of information was the records of the IMT.

Millions perished during World War 2. Estimates range as high as 80 million killed in all theatres of war including Stalin's purges. For Jews to co-opt this hideous carnage and proclaim that only THEIR suffering is meaningful and only THEY should receive monetary compensation is the height of arrogance and self-centeredness.

Its been over 50 years since these events occurred. Jews have received billions of dollars in compensation from Germany, Switzerland, and other nations. And still the holocaust machine grinds on, its skeptics still persecuted and charged with thought crimes in many European nations and Canada. When will this disgraceful scam finally end? There are those who believe that now it's the European and American gentiles who are the real victims of "The Holocaust".

If Jews want to believe that what they call "The Holocaust" is the central event of the 20th century, indeed the central event of all history, that is their business. However, when they seek to impose this belief on the gentile world via relentless and unending media promotion including such falsehoods as Jewish soap and lampshades, then the public has every right to rise up and say 'enough!'.

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#24

Post by Hans » 06 Jul 2002, 09:22

Dan wrote:
The soap allegations have been utterly refuted by a German public prosecuter's office and historians. Also Raul Hilberg, a holocaust authority, writes that the human soap allegations were just a war-time rumor. So why does this topic always come up in holocaust discussions?
Hans, I think because Americans are always getting it thrown in our faces.
Oh come on, Dan! Lot of false claims are made in modern media, maybe also the human soap allegation by some Jewish leaders, but that's no reason to mention this allegation over and over again in a forum about the history of the Third Reich! What matters for us is that nor the historians from the Institut für Zeitgeschichte nor holocaust expert Raul Hilberg could find convincing evidence for the human soap allegation.
According to Hilberg:

"Die Verwendung von menschlichem Fett zur Seifenherstellung kann aufgrund der vorliegenden Dokumente und Augenzeugenberichte nicht als Tatsache gelten."

My translation:

"The use of human fat for soap production cannot be seen as a fact on account of the present documents and testimonies."

Source: Raul Hilberg, Die Vernichtung der europäischen Juden, page 1021, footnote 339.

PS thanks for that paragraph, even on this board the allegation is still occasionally made that there were serious experiments in which soap was made from Jews.
The accusations is that Prof. Spanner made some attempts to make soap of human fat from executed prisoners (but not from Jews from concentration camps!) in Danzig, there is the testimony of Sigmund Mazur who worked there about these things.
These experiments are said to have been taken place at the Danzig Anatomic Institute. Now, as said the Institut für Zeitgeschichte has stated in 1960 that the Soviet accusation at Nuremberg was unfounded. Apparantly, the Institute didn't consider the evidence presented by the Soviets incl. the testimony of Mazur to be reliable.
It is pointed out by the historian Hellmuth Auerbach from the Institut für Zeitgeschichte that soap is ineviteble "produced" in an Anatomic Institute during the production of bones preparations. He says that this chemical fact was possible the reason for the accusations.
Of course, the Institut could be wrong.

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#25

Post by Dan » 06 Jul 2002, 15:10

Hans, you are right, of course. We shouldn't be re-hashing soap libel here. But the people who bring it up usually haven't been here as long as us. I offered only an explanation as to why new people bring it up. Jewish groups and even some holocaust museums are still pushing into our faces, and it irritates many Americans. Remember by blood, the Germans are the biggest ethnic group in America.

All we hear about over here is how everyone wants to kill Jews in the middle east, and the Jewish lobby and media is working overtime to portray Jews as innocent victims. WW2 rumors are a part of that. I realize it is different in places like Portugal and Germany where Jews do not own every single news channel (except FOX) and every single large newspaper.





Best
Dan

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Scott Smith
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Human Soap and Lampshades.

#26

Post by Scott Smith » 06 Jul 2002, 16:32

Well, the Human Soap and Human Lampshades story is the very first Holocaust story that I ever heard as a boy--and it is shamelessly repeated by nearly everybody. It is classic Greuelpropaganda. Many Survivors will "bear witness" to it, and it is so good that it is never unequivocally dropped. I the story underscores the inherent deceit of the Nuremberg process and the ongoing moralistic investment with the WWII famous-victory and categorical-imperative of Interventionism. Besides, Holo-historians have been stunningly silent about setting straight Holo-bunkum, including the four million gassed at Auschwitz. I submit that even the H-academicizers have no less as much an investment in shopworn Greuelpropaganda as anyone.

Never Forget!
:)
27 August 1914

The Times Paris correspondent reports "The Belgian Baby Without Hands"
atrocity story.


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#27

Post by Mensch Meyer » 06 Jul 2002, 17:33

Dan wrote:Hans, you are right, of course. We shouldn't be re-hashing soap libel here. But the people who bring it up usually haven't been here as long as us. I offered only an explanation as to why new people bring it up. Jewish groups and even some holocaust museums are still pushing into our faces, and it irritates many Americans. Remember by blood, the Germans are the biggest ethnic group in America.

All we hear about over here is how everyone wants to kill Jews in the middle east, and the Jewish lobby and media is working overtime to portray Jews as innocent victims. WW2 rumors are a part of that. I realize it is different in places like Portugal and Germany where Jews do not own every single news channel (except FOX) and every single large newspaper.
Best
Dan
I appreciate your comments - and this in summary to the "REHASH of soap libel:"

I take note of the dispute whether or not the subject of fraudulent holocaust claims are appropriate on this forum, and yet:

My being a "newcomer" should not make my position unique when I challenge those who profit from WWII by writing books or by lecturing to the public on the subject of the Holocaust in order to fuel the continuous restitutions - while disregarding veracity. These same individuals or groups should rightfully be subjected to the scruteny of their stories - to this day.

The thread began with the examination of:


" A Life in Pieces by Blake Eskin (Aurum, 2002; 245pp.. £16.99)

"IN 1995, a Holocaust memoir entitled Fragments was published in German to instant acclaim. Its author, Binjamin Wilkomirski, purported to be a Jewish child survivor whose parents were brutally murdered in a massacre in Riga, Latvia. -- Wilkomirski was invited to address Holocaust conferences, university departments and survivor groups around the world. -- The science of DNA was used to settle the dispute about whether or not the author of "Fragments" was a liar..."

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/
---------------------

Following this opening I see no reason to limit the exposure of one fraud, the one of Wilkomirski, when there are numerous others, which led me to introduce: ---

The case of Deli Strummer - her recounting her personal holocaust experiences, her lecture series before school children and other captive audiences, that were sponsored by Jewish organizations, and which lead to considerable embarrassment when she was questioned by her own community. "Over the past two decades. Deli Strummer has acquired a reputation as one of the preeminent public speakers in local Holocaust survivor circles. ---etc"

--Holocaust scholar Raul Hilberg and Lawrence L. Langer, an expert in Holocaust testimony, reviewed Ms. Strummer's accounts and revealed their findings to the BJC last January, stating that many of her recollections were incorrect or embellished... etc For the rest of the story:

http://www.jewishtimes.com/scripts/edition.pl?

--------------------------------

The next case in review is about another book, again with the intent to bring the past into the present public eye for sheer profit by those of the Jewish pursuation themselves - NOT by Gentiles! For this reason I cited the case of the Holocaust museum, Atlanta which was at odds with another author, this one who insisted on perpetuating the saga about the Nazi soap made of Jewish victims. ---- JEWISH Authors themselves re-create and keep alive the controversies of false claims - claims that were planted in the Nuremberg Trials - all for profit, and which I presented in this post:

"There are numerous similar stories that lack varacity. One of them is about soap-bars made of Jewish victims by the nazis. Such soap bars were even entered as exhibit during the Nuremberg Trial ! And then silently dropped from the holocaust history. And yet there are those, writing books for profit, who still insist in the macabre soap story, even basing it on personal connection to family members. This item explains how such a book became an embarrassment when it made national news:

Holocaust museum, Atlanta author at odds. Book alleges Nazis used corpses of Jews for soap --- Associated Press "

http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/092 ... 0020.shtml
-

If the Jewish community were to control their own loose cannons, perhaps there would be less exposure of their lack of veracity concerning the Holocaust - TO THIS DAY!

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#28

Post by Tarpon27 » 07 Jul 2002, 00:37

It is classic Greuelpropaganda.
Of course, quoting Lindbergh and his "stories" and "accounts", with shin bones cut from dead Japanese and made into letter openers and pen trays to support his view that Americans' treatment of the Japanese was equivalent to the Nazis' treatment of Jews is perfectly acceptable.

Regards,

Mark

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Scott Smith
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The HORROR...

#29

Post by Scott Smith » 07 Jul 2002, 03:03

Tarpon27 wrote:
Scott wrote:It is classic Greuelpropaganda.
Of course, quoting Lindbergh and his "stories" and "accounts", with shin bones cut from dead Japanese and made into letter openers and pen trays to support his view that Americans' treatment of the Japanese was equivalent to the Nazis' treatment of Jews is perfectly acceptable.
Lindbergh was expressing his views in his memoirs shortly before his death. He was not propagating atrocity stories or making, like Dear Senator Dodd, that such have the authentication of a court of law. Furthermore, it is not a crime to argue that such stories may be bogus, as it is with Big H-Denial in some countries, nor skepticism seen by all right-thinking individuals as perversion and Hate. Nor was Lindbergh making a "moral equivalencies" argument. It was one more like "war is hell and you cannot refine it" to quote General Sherman. Of course, Jews and all right-thinking Gentiles believe that Jewish suffering is morally unique and this is translated more like General Sheridan substituting Indian for Jap or "the only good Jew is a dead Jew." Yeah, Mark, that's what Lindbergh was saying all right. Breathe deeply the gas...
:aliengray

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Roberto
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#30

Post by Roberto » 08 Jul 2002, 18:30

Scott Smith wrote:
Tarpon27 wrote:
Scott wrote:It is classic Greuelpropaganda.
Of course, quoting Lindbergh and his "stories" and "accounts", with shin bones cut from dead Japanese and made into letter openers and pen trays to support his view that Americans' treatment of the Japanese was equivalent to the Nazis' treatment of Jews is perfectly acceptable.
Scott Smith wrote:Lindbergh was expressing his views in his memoirs shortly before his death. He was not propagating atrocity stories or making, like Dear Senator Dodd, that such have the authentication of a court of law.
How does Smith know that Senator Dodd, who presented evidence on isolated attempts to manufacture soap from human fat at the Nuremberg Trial, was “propagating atrocity stories”?

What other than his own wishful thinking makes him assume that the evidence presented was not conclusive?
Scott Smith wrote:Furthermore, it is not a crime to argue that such stories may be bogus, as it is with Big H-Denial in some countries, nor skepticism seen by all right-thinking individuals as perversion and Hate.
This is one of the arguments that deserve the comment “so what?”. Nonsense is nonsense, whether it is criminally sanctioned or not.
Scott Smith wrote:Nor was Lindbergh making a "moral equivalencies" argument.
Why, and I thought he had written that

What the German has done to the Jew in Europe, we are doing to the Jap in the Pacific.

(as quoted in Smith’s post of Wed Jul 03, 2002 11:47 am on the thread

Holocaust mass graves?
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 90ec09f49e )
Scott Smith wrote:It was one more like "war is hell and you cannot refine it" to quote General Sherman.
Wow, so he equated organized and systematic mass murder of non-combatants outside the scope of combat actions with “war”. If that’s not a “moral equivalencies” argument, I don’t know what is.
Scott Smith wrote:Of course, Jews and all right-thinking Gentiles believe that Jewish suffering is morally unique and this is translated more like General Sheridan substituting Indian for Jap or "the only good Jew is a dead Jew."
Nothing of that, my dear boy. It’s just that historiography tries to avoid the inappropriate playing down of the horror of genocide and mass murder that comes from bunching it together with “war”.
Scott Smith wrote:Yeah, Mark, that's what Lindbergh was saying all right. Breathe deeply the gas...
It’s not what killed them that makes the difference, Reverend. It’s why they were killed. Not in order to bring a military enemy to its knees, but because they were seen as a vermin that must under all circumstances be got rid off.

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