Just saw some movie..

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

where there are sequences of Einsatztruppen footage. In one of the sequences, one of the soldiers wore quite a lot of medals (and it was a regular soldier, no distinctive marks or anything) on his right chest pocket.
Is it possible that combat soldiers served temporarily in the Einsatztruppe (like in the concentration camps), or would it have to be a transferred soldier?

Christian

[Andy H]

I don't think anything was impossible in the Third Reich, though I thought anyone serving in that type of unit was either selected or voluntered, but I imagine there would be times through expediancy that front line soldiers were attached.

Andy from the Shire

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

You're right about that - but was it comon practice? I could imagine that some o fthe soldiers would object it they were 'partially' forced, but it could also be that they could choose between KZ camps and Einsatztruppen if they were mildly wounded...

Christian

[Andy H]

What a choice KZ or Einsatzgruppen :roll:

Andy from the Shire

[Birgitte Heuschkel]

What a choice KZ or Einsatzgruppen :roll:

Seriously. I wonder whether any made the 'third' choice, the bullet for refusing to obey.

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

Don't think that many did, if they knew it was temporary...

Christian

[Birgitte Heuschkel]

This is true.

"It's not as anyone's going to tell my parents, my fiancee will never find out, they're only Jews (POWs, Reds, etc), and I'll only be here a month anyway."

I guess that it's a lot easier to be an ideologist tucked away safely in one's home during peace time than it is out there where you truly are facing the bullet for disobedience.

[Andy H]

Hi Bridgette

It alaways makes me laugh when people state that they didn't have to obey that order, they could have refused and been shot themselves, not to metion what would happen to their families potentially. As you say,"From the safety of our room" do we judge.

I for one would have more than likely obeyed and got royally drunk afterwards.

Andy from the Shire

[HaEn]

As I said before: Only by the grace of God was I not put into a position to choose. Even some 60 years later I don't know IF I would have had the guts to disobey a direct order. It's VERY easy to have 20 - 20 hindsight; the reality was that when you questioned or critiqued any order, there was a price to be paid. An old joke was: when your superior says "jump" you don't ask why? , you just say: "How high and how long do you want me to stay up ther". Regards. HN

[AndyW]

What a choice KZ or Einsatzgruppen :roll:

Seriously. I wonder whether any made the 'third' choice, the bullet for refusing to obey.

Not that simple:

After reading Goldhagen and Browing on German Police Batallion 101, I'm quite a bit "confused" on mankind:

Those men weren't nazis, nor sadistic scum, but "ordinary men". They had a clear and fair chance to *not* participate into the mass executions of women and children without facing any personal disadvantage (this was known at their time and not only 20/20 hindsight) , but however, only a few took the opportunity to say. "No!". I think the ordinary, obeying German wearing an uniform at this time really had no bad conscience to kill Jews if being said so. They had some problems in a, let's say, technical way (getting sick or loosing nerves while shooting children and getting thier brain on thier uniform etc.), but not in the overall idea to kill jews.

This is, after having studied the Holocaust for many years, still a big mystery to me: You're not a nazi, you're not a sadist, you've gone through an average, basic Christian education, you' hadn't served in the military, you're an "average", adult, married guy and and have kids by your own; and you go and shoot children anyway, even if you have any chance to restrain from doing it. And some even invited their wifes to witness their daily "business"!

I tried hard to understand this, but it just doesn't fit into my head, sorry.

[Birgitte Heuschkel]

I was referring to those SS troopers who, whilst recuperating from wounds, got the jolly choice of Einsatzgruppen oder KZ-Lager, so to speak.

The scenario you describe is somewhat different, AndyW, because you are speaking of people who willingly undertook these actions. Just like you, I fail completely to understand how it could happen. But it is still a somewhat different scenario.

[Ovidius]

This is, after having studied the Holocaust for many years, still a big mystery to me: You're not a nazi, you're not a sadist, you've gone through an average, basic Christian education, you' hadn't served in the military, you're an "average", adult, married guy and and have kids by your own; and you go and shoot children anyway, even if you have any chance to restrain from doing it. And some even invited their wifes to witness their daily "business"!

I tried hard to understand this, but it just doesn't fit into my head, sorry.

These are even bigger mystery for me:

- a Western guy never saw face to face an Arab, but claims they're terrorists and have to be punished or neutralised;

- the same person never saw a 1940s Jew, but still claims they were absolutely innocent, never did anything to justify their execution, even more "they were guardians of morality"(according to German historian Dr. Gunnar Heinsohn, born in 1943);

- the same man is convinced the USA is a stabilising force in the world, a benefactor of humanity that has to be supported and helped;

The issue is simple:

The person is told something by "someone up there", and he/she believes it blindly, without the slightest doubt.

Can you "Deny" this?

~Ovidius

[AndyW]

The person is told something by "someone up there", and he/she believes it blindly, without the slightest doubt.

I'm not neccesarily judging on this people killing innocent civilians, nor am I'm playinmg the excuse song for them, I'm just trying the hell to get a clue what was going on in their minds.

Ever killed an animal? I guess so, so did I. I have a "cause" to kill a fish. I have a cause to kill a chicken or shoot a deer, a fox. However, I never felt "good" in doing this, but it is still *my*chioce to shoot a deer or kill a chicken, no one is forcing me to do it. But I think the very last time I was felling "happy" in killing an animal was when I was 5 years old and hit ants with a stone by the dozends. If I shoot a deer or a fox, I don't feel "happy", but as a "winner".

So, "someone up there" is telling me that it's O.K. to kill chickens or deers or foxes, but not to kill little girls. So I go and kill chickens and deers, but not little girls. However, if ANYBODY would suddenly start to tell me that NOW it would be absolutely O.K to kill Taliban suicide raghats, because there's a good cause and a need for it blabla, and tells me "But you don't have to do it, if you don't feel it's O.K.", I'm sure as hell that I would still say "No! I will not guide this 15 year old Arab child into the woods and shoot it, because it's still wrong.". This is no easy talk: If my choice would be to kill children or being killed myself, I'm sure as hell that I would kill as many children as they order me to do. But if I have an easy chance to escape from this "inconvenience" of having to do something which I think is awfully wrong - and I think killing innocent women and children is commonly pretty despiteful in europe since a couple of hundred years -
I would not volunteer to do it.

So the question is: Why did the majority of men of Police Batallion 101 (no Nazis, no Sadistic freaks, no uneducated scum, not under pressure to fullfill this order, family fathers) did not take their given chance?

Difficult question, I guess.

Cheers,

[Birgitte Heuschkel]

I can't say I know much about this particular battallion, but there are a few items it might be worth considering.

Even if they were technically allowed to refuse, would there be "hidden" repercussions such as being less likely to receive honors and promotions?

Peer pressure? Fear of retaliation, whether "hidden" or against family members? Fear of being accused of working against the state?

[HaEn]

This is (I hope) my last comment on this thread. Once upon a time returning from a melder run, I had the "privilige(sic)" to see about 100 (estimated) people, laying next to each other alongside a road, at Woeste Hoeve, Holland, very still and very dead; there were some guards and I was told to move on. I insisted to know what the story was and after I identified who's melder I was, I was informed that these people had been killed as a reprisal for the failed attack by the Dutch resistance of Hans Rauter, the Ob. SS.u.Polizei Führer. I went on, and a little further threw up. After reporting back, my superior (a Sturmbannführer ) wanted to know why I was so upset. ( It showed). I shot off my mouth and told him what I thought about the picture. The next day I was transferred to a "himmelfahrt kommando". So much for having the right to your opinion in those days, let alone to refuse to carry out an order, if and when. That's what I meant with 20 - 20 hindsight. ( I SHOULD have done this, or I COULD have done that. As I said: But for the grace of God . . . . Regards. HN.