Beheadings in the Third Reich

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gordon anderson
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2851

Post by gordon anderson » 15 Jan 2010, 05:30

Pete26 wrote:This question is probably for Gordon to answer:

Which guillotine release mechanism takes the least force to release the blade? Is that force substantial in any case to prevent accidental blade release?
Hello Pete. I think the easiest to use was the Tegel. I doubt there was much difference in the force required to retract the (Tegel) spring bolt --by the pull down rod, or the ( 1854) arched hook--- by swinging out the attached long pivot rod , that lets both heavy sledges and blades that are resting on them fall.

I would much prefer to work the 1854. 2 times the Tegel malfunctioned and the lifting hook came flying off during mid lift--very dangerous.

I will confess i did put my head into the lunette on an 1854 (I have a photo of it !) but I would not do so on a Tegel!! Were I a Scharfrichter -- I would want to work the 1854 as it is much safer to me. The Vienna and Pankraz Tegels are safer to me as you have to pull UP on the levers and most others you must pull Down on the rod ( Moabit -1st Pankraz) which looks like a cord in many pictures but it is a thin steel rod. In the Vienna and Pankraz Tegels the levers at the bottom are attached to cables that retract the bolts that are pulled down as the lever is pulled upward. That way there is much less chance of an accident if one were to slip and fall aginst the lever ( if it was a push down) or if one grabed the pull DOWN rod!!!

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Paul53
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2852

Post by Paul53 » 15 Jan 2010, 20:05

Halle Fallbeil
In particular,since the fall of 1942, the organized death of inmates in correctional facility Halle was a major activity. Death candidates from the Halle prison, that lost their lives under the Weimar guillotine, were to be executed in Halle from 1942 onwards.Reason is the overworkedness of Weimar prison.The first beheadings took place in Halle on november 23th 1942.In the first months of 1943, the nazi officials had installed a provision for hanging .Until april 10th 1945, 549 people from 15 european countries, were executed in Halle`s Red Ox prison.


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Paul53
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2853

Post by Paul53 » 15 Jan 2010, 20:08

The text with the picure says: Fallbeil in Prague-st Pankraz correctional facility. In Halle, a same model was in use.(stout legged Tegel)

Pete26
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2854

Post by Pete26 » 16 Jan 2010, 01:08

gordon anderson wrote: I will confess i did put my head into the lunette on an 1854 (I have a photo of it !) but I would not do so on a Tegel!!
With the real blade hanging above just by the claw? At least was the safety pin in to prevent the release lever from moving? What did it feel like?

In a real guillotine execution, the condemned must hear the sickening noise of the descending blade just before it hits the neck. Even though the blade crashes down in less than a second, it must be really terrifying noise to hear.

gordon anderson
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2855

Post by gordon anderson » 17 Jan 2010, 02:34

Well--it was terrifying!! For me it evoked the same effect as going to the open edge of a 40 story building with only a short 18" wall up to ones knees and then looking up at the sky.--with nothing to hold on to!!!!!!!!. Yes there is a metallic whooshing noise as all their blades fall.

I had a very interesting experience when I researched the Nuremburg (old French) guillotine in 1981. First the curator was expecting me . When I asked for him I took m seat at one of the reading tables in the very large reading room. I am very psychic and was "prepared". A older man with white hair and a goatee among many in the room brought a card catalog drawer over and sat down a few seats away from me. Hw was very engaged in his study, but he seemed to be watching me and listened in for a whilet. When the curator appeared about 5 minutes later it was the same man. he was spying on me sizing me up!!! I had done my best to appear studious and had expounded in detail to my friend about the details of the French model etc etc.

We took a private service elevator down several floors I was allowed to "Play" with it and I also photographed it. It was hiden deep in the bowels of the museum and not on display. The blade was kept locked up as the museum staff kept bringing in dolls to decapitate it ! When the curator went to get the blade I put my head in the lunette and it stuck/ jammed .and I couldn't get it out. Fortunately my friend with me got it open . It would have been most embarrassing!!! Incidentally the mouton was wood and weighed only about 8 lbs!! With only the blade attached it didn't seem heavy enough to decapitate!! There was no iron inside at all .

htk
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2856

Post by htk » 18 Jan 2010, 21:23

Hi gordon

well you almost got what you wished for .. a first hand experience :D


When the mouton was fairly light and also with a relatively light blade it makes sense that the traveling time for the blade was longer in a french type then in a german type where i suppose the weight is heavyer so a shorter drop was needed.

Any photos you are willing to share ?

rgds

hans

Pete26
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2857

Post by Pete26 » 19 Jan 2010, 00:43

Thanks for the interesting story Gordon. Hans, a typical French guillotine mouton plus blade weighs approximately 40 kg, so the very light mouton that Gordon mentioned is not in line with a typical French guillotine. The blade fall distance for a French guillotine is about 2.2 meters, for a German fallbeil about half that. Therefore, the sledge/blade on German fallbeils must be heavier and it typically weighs about 60-70 kg, or probably even more on the old 1854 model.

gordon anderson
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2858

Post by gordon anderson » 19 Jan 2010, 04:56

Yes but the height on the Nurmemburg fallbeil was approx the height of the last french model . And that mouton was 80lbs plus xtra for the blade---so I was very puzzled by the lightmess of the mouton. However there is a reproduction guillotine with a height of probably 7 to 7 and 1/2 feet with a real sharp lade and a mouton of 16 lbs. I was told by the owner it had decapiated a dead goats head and cut through the neck cleanly. Pete you should be good with this sort of problem.

At the most the old Nurmemburg wood mouton could not have weighed more that 10 or 12 lbs. the wood was all dried out . it just was not that heavy. I think 8 lbs. was more like it

I need to be given the guidelines again for posting pictures. I can't find the size limits etc. I tried to post a new picture but it was too large . i have forgotten how i did it in the past. I will post the picture then . Help please!!

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fredric
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2859

Post by fredric » 19 Jan 2010, 08:58

gordon anderson wrote:Yes but the height on the Nurmemburg fallbeil was approx the height of the last french model . And that mouton was 80lbs plus xtra for the blade---so I was very puzzled by the lightmess of the mouton. However there is a reproduction guillotine with a height of probably 7 to 7 and 1/2 feet with a real sharp lade and a mouton of 16 lbs. I was told by the owner it had decapiated a dead goats head and cut through the neck cleanly. Pete you should be good with this sort of problem.

At the most the old Nurmemburg wood mouton could not have weighed more that 10 or 12 lbs. the wood was all dried out . it just was not that heavy. I think 8 lbs. was more like it

I need to be given the guidelines again for posting pictures. I can't find the size limits etc. I tried to post a new picture but it was too large . i have forgotten how i did it in the past. I will post the picture then . Help please!!
I know the photo referenced is outstanding and relevant to this forum. However I too cannot not figure out how to post images so have declined to do so. I "second" this request.

htk
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2860

Post by htk » 19 Jan 2010, 20:52

Hi gordon

You can upload through Photobucket (http://photobucket.com/)
After log-in you can upload photos to this site which results in a web URL adress
You add this URL adress with copy (CTRL C) and paste (Ctrl V) into your posting

rgds and goodluck

hans

Piotr1
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Nuremberg-mouton

#2861

Post by Piotr1 » 19 Jan 2010, 22:07

Image

gordon anderson
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2862

Post by gordon anderson » 20 Jan 2010, 02:10

htk wrote:Hi gordon

You can upload through Photobucket (http://photobucket.com/)
After log-in you can upload photos to this site which results in a web URL adress
You add this URL adress with copy (CTRL C) and paste (Ctrl V) into your posting

rgds and goodluck

hans
Thanks Hans I prefer to insert the picture as Piotr did here--but i can't find the size and pixel requirements?? Gordon

Pete26
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The story of Helmuth Hirsch

#2863

Post by Pete26 » 20 Jan 2010, 02:39


Pete26
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List of Czech women guillotined in Pankratz prison

#2864

Post by Pete26 » 20 Jan 2010, 04:15

1. Marie Vitakova (24 April 1943), age 58

2. Anna Kresinova (24 April 1943), age 49

3. Antonie Sazimova (24 March 1943), age 36

4. Berta Kohnova (27 May 1943), age 59

5. Charlotte Neumannova (27 May 1943), age 35

6. Mina Konigova (27 May 1943), age 44

7. Ruzena Kodadova (9 September 1943), age 23

8. Jarmila Zivcova (9 September 1943), age 35

9. Marie Brabencova (24 September 1943), age 51

10. Bozena Brabencova (24 September 1943), age 24

11. Viktorie Kroupova (1 October 1943), age 48

12. Emilie Flunkova (8 October 1943), age 38

13. Marianne Goltzova (8 October 1943), age 48

14. Marie Janouskova (14 October 1943), age 33

15. Elsa Taussigova (5 November 1943), age 48

16. Marie Pospisilova (5 November 1943), age 26

17. Katerina Nemcova (8 November 1943), age 49

18. Bozena Dolejsova (22 November 1943), age 43

19. Anna Kefurtova (3 December 1943), age 42

20. Ruzena Prochazkova (3 December 1943), age 38

21. Jana Benesova (22 December 1943), age 47

22. Adela Mikulova (22 December 1943), age 33

23. Anna Drabinkova (22 December 1943), age 45

24. Marie Precechtelova (7 January 1944), age 28

25. Hedvika Kupkova (7 January 1944), age 48

26. Anna Bosakova (7 January 1944), age 41

27. Dr Anna Buresova (23 February 1944), age 51

28. Marie Kamenicka (23 February 1944), age 39

29. Bozena Dvorska (23 February 1944), age 33

30. Barbora Langova (23 February 1944), age 32

31. Marie Fuksova (22 March 1944), age 50

32. Ruzena Fajtlova (22 March 1944), age 47

33. Stepanka Manicka (22 March 1944), age 51

34. Bozena Svehlova (3 April 1944), age 55

35. Marie Daliborova (19 April 1944), age 24

36. Marie Beckova (19 April 1944), age 36

37. Bozena Cibulkova (19 April 1944). age 39

38. Antonie Zbrojova (19 April 1944), age 42

39. Helena Cechova (19 April 1944), age 35

40. Marie Bauerova (28 April 1944), age 34

41. Frantiska Kozlikova ( 28 April 1944), age 48

42. Antonie Hadacova (28 April 1944), age 42

43. Vilemina Reslova (28 April 1944), age 39

44. Anna Mlejnkova (12 May 1944), age 29

45. Marie Schneiderova (12 May 1944), age 38

46. Bozena Novackova (15 June 1944), age 49

47. Jirina Kuncova (15 June 1944), age 32

48. Alzbeta Weinsteinova (15 May 1944), age 48

49. Anna Fromankova (15 June 1944), age 48

50. Anna Pitinova (24 June 1944), age 44

51. Marie Hladikova (24 June 1944), age 48

52. Marie Zemanova (24 June 1944), age 48

53. Marie Blazkova (29 June 1944), age 37

54. Anezka Vachova (29 June 1944), age 40

55. Jindra Hermuthova (29 June 1944), age 42

56. Anna Matyasovska (29 June 1944), age 43

57. Frantiska Topinkova (12 July 1944), age 35

58. Milada Marikova ( 12 July 1944), age 26

59. Emilie Vetrovcova (12 July 1944), age54

60. Josefa Vetrovcova (12 July 1944), age 36

61. Marie Souckova (20 July 1944), age 33

62. Ludmila Smelikova (4 August 1944), age 23

63. Bozena Lehnertova (4 August 1944), age 41

64. Terezie Kalouskova (4 August 1944), age 40

65. Marie Pavlasova, (4 August 1944), age 35

66. Marie Pikulova (4 August 1944), age 30

67. Emilie Pleskotova (11 August 1944), age 53

68. Anna Solperova (11 August 1944), age 40

69. Vlasta Drabova (17 august 1944), age 23

70. Anastazie Bartikova (17 August 1944), age 52

71. Anna Hafenrichterova (18 August 1944), age 43

72. Rafaela Zouharova (1 September 1944), age 45

73. Marie Cvandova (1 September 1944), age 52

74. Anna Fejkova (8 September 1944), age 49

75. Anna Chmelikova (15 September 1944), age 24

76. Amalie Mantlova (15 September 1944), age 47

77. Marie Malatova (29 September 1944), age 37

78. Josefa Vaverova (5 October 1944), age 43

79. Marie Blahova (5 October 1944), age 28

80. Anezka Dolezalova (5 October 1944), age 48

81. Marta Plankova ( 20 October 1944), age 37

82. Barbora Zeniskova (20 October 1944), age 35

83. Stepanka Kasparova (20 October 1944), age 37

84. Margit Osvaldova (20 October 1944), age 35

85. Ludmila Buresova (20 October 1944), age 40

86. Antonie Dudlova (20 October 1944), age 39

87. Ruzena Zichova ( 3 November 1944), age 24

88. Anna Bartosova (7 November 1944), age 49

89. Frantiska Kockova (14 November 1944), age 52

90. Marie Buresova (14 November 1944), age 26

91. Anna Zapotocka (17 November 1944), age 45

92. Bozena Pacova (24 November 1944), age 47

93. Berta Horcicova (24 November 1944), age 45

94. Anna Roblova (24 November 1944), age 42

95. Marie Sikolova (24 November 1944), age 42

96. Marta Radova (8 December 1944), age 46

97. Bozena Davidkova (8 December 1944), age 31

98. Marie Loudova (13 December 1944), age 47

99. Marie Kulmanova (20 December 1944), age 51

100. Marie Svobodova (20 December 1944), age 46

101. Bozena Michalova (5 January 1945), age 46

102. Ludmila Novakova (5 January 1945), age 49

103. Antonie Liskova (5 January 1945), age 47

104. Anna Korolova (5 January 1945), age 45

105. Karolina Limburska (12 January 1945), age 38

106. Bozena Pelouchova (2 February 1945), age 34

107. Anna Zdrahalova (15 February 1945), age 39

108. Alzbeta Pelikanova (15 February 1945), age 45

109. Marie Mattasova (15 February 1945), age 37

110. Marie Benetkova (22 February 1945), age 47

111. Marie Miculkova (22 February 1945), age 53

112. Ruzena Sedlackova (13 March 1945), age 46

113. Jirina Matouskova (23 March 1945), age 31

114. Marie Zednikova (23 March 1945), age 46

115. Anastazie Kockova (4 April 1945), age 38

116. Anna Vitkovska (4 April 1945), age 49

117. Marie Chmelikova (4 April 1945), age 51

118. Ludmila Faltynkova (4 April 1945), age 45

119. Marie Bartosova (19 April 1945), age 52

120. Marta Bradova (21 April 1945), age 42

121. Bozena Steidlova (26 April 1945), age 36
Last edited by Pete26 on 21 Jan 2010, 01:51, edited 1 time in total.

Pete26
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Scholl family after the War

#2865

Post by Pete26 » 21 Jan 2010, 01:29

Robert Scholl, father of Hans and Sophie Scholl, was released from prison two years after the execution of his children, and he was appointed mayor of the city of Ulm under the American occupation. His son Werner never came back from Russia. His wife Magdalena, her heart strained beyond endurance , died not long after the war ended. Inge Scholl, the sister of Sophie Scholl, dedicated herself to the preservation of the memory of the White Rose, and in particular the role of her brother and sister. Fritz Hartnagel, the fiancee of Sophie Scholl married her sister Elizabeth after the war, became a judge, and adviser to youthful conscientious objectors, and an active member of the antinuclear movement.

Source: Sophie Scholl and the White Rose by Annette Dumbach and Jud Newborn.

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