Beheadings in the Third Reich

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Paul53
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Paul53 » 07 Jan 2009 17:03

Typically, until the leather belt of the bucket was introduced 1940,the assistant executioner had to held the convicts head,like in the French style.
Gordon, did you see they removed your Eugen Weidmann film from youtube?

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by htk » 07 Jan 2009 18:48

paul lukt het met je inbox ?

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Paul53
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Paul53 » 07 Jan 2009 22:57

Not yet htk,I am working on it.This recent book has much more info that is interesting to us.In Graz, a new Scharfrichter was appointed,Fritz Witzka,who lived in Vienna.Most of the German Scharfrichter had to execute a death sentence twice or three times a week.Every week of the year.

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Paul53
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Paul53 » 10 Jan 2009 02:36

Is everybody asleep ,gentlemen?

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Paul53
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Paul53 » 14 Jan 2009 18:34

Well Gordon,it seems that only you and I are left from the original forum. Waiting for days for replies.Anyway,I will continue with the info from this new book shortly, when I have the time.There is a lot more to tell.Although there are some points left open for debate, for instance the claim that some 12000 people were beheaded by the nazis, which is contradicted by the veryfied number of 23.559 victims that is mentioned in the official investigation of the Bundesjustizministerium ,published before.Over 31000 death sentences were given during nazi years it is said.
Strong point of this book is that it gives an overview of the various Bezirke, or administrative areas,that Germany and the occupied countries were divided in,and the Scharfrichter working there.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by ghostsoldier » 14 Jan 2009 19:44

I'm still playing catch-up....I found this thread a while back, and given my limited forum reading time, I'm up to about page 80 or so...I find the subject of beheading, as a method of execution, immensely fascinating (albiet a strange, morbid fascination), and I appreciate the detailed information that you good people have submitted on this thread, concerning this practice as it relates to the Third Reich. :)

Keep up the good work! :wink:
Rob
"Even God cannot change the past. "
-Agathon (448 BC - 400 BC)

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Grootendorst » 14 Jan 2009 20:05

Heren (Gentlemen),

A little question from Holland: in a film about Mariunus vd Lubbe, a fallbeil was shown in the depot of the Zeughaus, the German National Museum in Berlin. It was a fallbeil like the one Marinus met on his way to ethernity.
They shall never display this exibit. So, is it the fallbeil from Leipzig or from another place in the Reich?
By the way, they exibit the large bureau from Hitler in a current exhibition!
What a monster! (the bureau and Hitler).

regards,

Mark

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Paul53
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Paul53 » 15 Jan 2009 01:04

Paul53 wrote:Well Gordon,it seems that only you and I are left from the original forum. Waiting for days for replies.Anyway,I will continue with the info from this new book shortly, when I have the time.There is a lot more to tell.Although there are some points left open for debate, for instance the claim that some 12000 people were beheaded by the nazis, which is contradicted by the veryfied number of 23.559 victims that is mentioned in the official investigation of the Bundesjustizministerium ,published before.Over 31000 death sentences were given during nazi years it is said.
Strong point of this book is that it gives an overview of the various Bezirke, or administrative areas,that Germany and the occupied countries were divided in,and the Scharfrichter working there.

I mean 24 559

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Pete26 » 15 Jan 2009 01:53

Paul53 wrote:Well Gordon,it seems that only you and I are left from the original forum.
Paul, I am still here, although I did not have anything meaningful to contribute for several months. I have a question about book copyrights. If a book is more than 60 years old, long out of print and its author deceased, is the information inside, like photographs for example, still proprietary and can it be posted in a forum like this one without violating any copyright laws(giving proper credit for the photos of course)?

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by andreobrecht » 15 Jan 2009 04:39

I am also still here but the information and threads have become a bit less interesting, more rehashing of earlier exchanges, less new information and discussions of the more macabre aspects of the subject which don't interest me as much as historical facts. So I haven't had much to contribute.

I have also been focused on the French guillotine for several months cataloging lots of new information and trying to create a set of nearly 100% accurate construction drawings of the 1889 guillotine from field measurements and photographs. This has been a daunting task and has occupied most of my time but doesn't relate to the fallbeil in the 3rd Reich so there is nothing to report.

Regarding the Van der Lubbe execution, it happened in 1934 before the first Tegel type fallbeils were in service therefore he would probably have been beheaded on a old 1854 type fallbeil. However these fallbeils were moved around and replaced so many times between 1934 and 1945 that I think it would practically be impossible to determine which machine was actually used.

The fallbeil at the DHM is the Tegel machine from the Brandenburg prison. The fallbeil shown in a video in a museum storage room is also a Tegel machine (but not the same one). Gordon has posted some pictures on the forum showing him operating yet another Tegel machine but from the surroundings it appears not to be one of those two. Another Tegel is exhibited at Ludwigsburg not to mention the ones in Vienna, Pancraz and Poznan and finally the one from Katowice stored at Auchwitz.
For the 1854 style fallbeils there is the controversial machine/reproduction at the Brandenburg memorial and the one at the Kiev War museum which came from Wroclaw. Finally the two post-WW2 machines at Mainz and Ludwigsburg.

A few more fallbeils may have been lost or destroyed but could also just be stored away. In particular the fallbeils from Plotzensee, Wolfenbuettel, Bruchsaler and Dresden appear to have survived the war but their whereabouts are unknown to me.

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Paul53
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Paul53 » 15 Jan 2009 19:26

Waltenbacher gives interesting info about the organisation of the execution activities in the Third Reich.
Germany,and the occupied areas in the east,was divided into ten administrative areas,called Bezirke.I wil use that name.
area executioner Prison

Bezirk 1 Poznan Gottlob Bordt Poznan
2 Konigsberg Karl Henschke Danzig,Konigsberg
3 Kattowitz August Koster Breslau,Kattowitz
4 Berlin Reindel,Rottger Berlin/Plotzensee,Brandenburg /Gorden
5 Hamburg Friedrich Hehr Dreibergen/Butzow,Hamburg,Wolffenbuttel
6 Halle Roselieb Dresden,Halle,Weimar
7 Koln Johann Muhl Dortmund,Frankfurt am Main,Koln
8 Munchen Johann Reichardt Bruchsal,Munchen,Stuttgart
9 Prag Alois Weiss Prag
10 Wien,Graz Fritz Witzka Wien,Graz.
Of each Bezirk,a lot of info is given,which I will try to publish on this forum.I already gave some on Poznan.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by ghostsoldier » 15 Jan 2009 21:14

andreobrecht wrote: I have also been focused on the French guillotine for several months cataloging lots of new information and trying to create a set of nearly 100% accurate construction drawings of the 1889 guillotine from field measurements and photographs.
That is quite interesting. Is that for your own personal use/satisfaction, or will you be offering the results for sale via website or published work?
Rob
"Even God cannot change the past. "
-Agathon (448 BC - 400 BC)

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by andreobrecht » 16 Jan 2009 02:16

Thank you for the information Paul. Did the reorganization take place before or after January 1935? I would guess after as the Nazis only had been in power for about a year when the Reichtag burned. I think M Van der Lubbe was tried and executed under the "old system" before the Nazis had completely restructured the courts and the justice system. I don't know under which jurisdiction Leipzig would fall, most likely Dresden or Berlin...

Regarding the French guillotine, I have a website on which I post historical information I gather as well as pictures of the models I build http://boisdejustice.com. The drawings of the 1889 Berger guillotine are not yet available but they will be for sale through the website starting in the spring (I hope).

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Pete26 » 16 Jan 2009 04:11

Paul53 wrote:Waltenbacher gives interesting info about the organisation of the execution activities in the Third Reich.
Germany,and the occupied areas in the east,was divided into ten administrative areas,called Bezirke.I wil use that name.
Area / Executioner / Prison

Bezirk
1. Poznan / Gottlob Bordt / Poznan
2. Konigsberg / Karl Henschke / Danzig,Konigsberg
3. Katowice / August Koster / Breslau,Katowice
4. Berlin / Reindel,Rottger / Berlin,Plotzensee,Brandenburg Gorden
5. Hamburg / Friedrich Hehr / Dreibergen,Butzow,Hamburg,Wolffenbuttel
6. Halle / Roselieb / Dresden,Halle,Weimar
7. Koln / Johann Muhl / Dortmund,Frankfurt am Main,Koln
8. Munich / Johann Reichardt / Bruchsal,Stadelheim,Stuttgart
9. Prague / Alois Weiss / Pankraz
10. Vienna,Graz / Fritz Witzka / Vienna,Graz.
Of each Bezirk,a lot of info is given,which I will try to publish on this forum.I already gave some on Poznan.
Good info, Paul. Just one comment: For number 8, the Munchen prison was obviously the Stadelheim prison, and for number 9 the Prague prison was Pankraz. I modified your list to be easier to read. Also, changed German city names to English version.

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Paul53
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Paul53 » 16 Jan 2009 16:30

Thanks for the comments.Problem with this list,is that it gives the situation of middle 1944.A lot of changes were made before,the Germans kept reorganizing their system during the war years.Therefore, for example Konigsberg prison was served before,by respectively Ernst Reindel(Handbeil) Friedrich Hehr,Gottlob Bordt and Karl Henschke.Henschke was the latest until the evacuation of the prison.I will come back to that,there is so much info in the book.

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