Beheadings in the Third Reich

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Paul53
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Paul53 » 18 Feb 2009 18:47

BTW I repeat my request for someone to give a tip on how to construct a link for the Spanner material,as I feel that it has historical value,and it will hopefully end a lot of the speculation and tall tales on this subject.This Spanner was just one more of the medical freaks in nazi Germany.David is right,from the point of view of the forum set-up,but it complicates things a bit.As I said before, in my opinion the Spanner site was not unlike other dissection rooms from that era.
Last edited by Paul53 on 18 Feb 2009 18:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Paul53 » 18 Feb 2009 18:57

Peter wrote:Have photos survived of Gropler, Reindel, Muehl, Kleine, Reichhart, Rottger, etc ?
Certainly if you have acces to the files of the RJM.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Peter » 18 Feb 2009 19:27

Thanks Paul

have any been published in books or do the RJM files have personal photos like a BDC file ?

Are the files available at US NARA on microfilm ?

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Piotr1 » 18 Feb 2009 19:46

Paul53 wrote:BTW I repeat my request for someone to give a tip on how to construct a link for the Spanner material,as I feel that it has historical value,and it will hopefully end a lot of the speculation and tall tales on this subject.This Spanner was just one more of the medical freaks in nazi Germany.David is right,from the point of view of the forum set-up,but it complicates things a bit.As I said before, in my opinion the Spanner site was not unlike other dissection rooms from that era.
Paul
below is link to the free hosting images
http://twojezdjecie.pl/
please click "wybierz"

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Paul53 » 18 Feb 2009 22:12

Peter wrote:Thanks Paul

have any been published in books or do the RJM files have personal photos like a BDC file ?

Are the files available at US NARA on microfilm ?
What is a BDC file,and a US NARA ?

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by David Thompson » 18 Feb 2009 22:26

BDC = Berlin Documents Center

US NARA = US National Archives & Records Administration

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by fredric » 19 Feb 2009 00:03

htk wrote:regarding Scholl & Co is there a more profound question; why have they been buried ? normal practice was that executed convicts where given to the docters. So why have they been buried ??
A puzzle...it's a great question. Could the Scholls Catholic faith have figured into the decision to bury the bodies instead of dissect and cremate? Could Father Alt have been involved? We know execution sites like Plotzensee provided bodies to the Berlin Anatomical Institute...but did Stadelheim transport bodies to a similiar facility in Munich? I have read that Perlach has mass graves of executed persons from Stadelheim so maybe burial was the typical practice...but it is a puzzle.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by mick55 » 19 Feb 2009 00:12

I'm fairly sure the Scholl's were Lutheran, although Bavaria is majority catholic it could be (likely) that the prison chaplain was catholic. I could hardly see the officials of the NSDAP government being too concerned about the religious mores of enemies of the state, apparently the parents were sent a bill for wear and tear on the fallbeil in executing their children.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Pete26 » 19 Feb 2009 03:48

Piotr1 wrote:
Paul53 wrote:BTW I repeat my request for someone to give a tip on how to construct a link for the Spanner material,as I feel that it has historical value,and it will hopefully end a lot of the speculation and tall tales on this subject.This Spanner was just one more of the medical freaks in nazi Germany.David is right,from the point of view of the forum set-up,but it complicates things a bit.As I said before, in my opinion the Spanner site was not unlike other dissection rooms from that era.
Paul
below is link to the free hosting images
http://twojezdjecie.pl/
please click "wybierz"
http://photobucket.com is another image hosting site you can upload the pictures on for free. Once you upload the image, paste or type the URL of the image after clicking the image icon when posting the picture in this forum. The URL goes between
[img]and[/img]
If you just want to post a link, then obviously do not click on the image icon.
Last edited by Pete26 on 19 Feb 2009 13:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Pete26 » 19 Feb 2009 04:07

What I gather from several replies is that it is highly probable then that the families of the Scholl siblings and Christoph Probst were allowed to attend their funeral, but all arrangements were already made by the prison officials, including the burial site, and perhaps they were not even allowed to view the bodies inside closed caskets (or simple pine coffins with nailed lids most likely). In this case I agree that the heads were probably between the legs of each body, or loosely placed in the neck area. Can you imagine a parent looking at the beheaded body of their child in the casket with the head between the legs? Surely the clothes would be soaked with blood and so would the head, unless they washed the bodies prior to placing them in caskets. And yes, it is likely that the bodies of executed at Stadelheim were buried rather than being sent to anatomical institutes for dissection. Maybe there wasn't any institute nearby or they were not interested in the bodies?

Note: Following judicial beheadings by a sword in Saudi Arabia today, the head is sown back on the body by a physician

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Pete26 » 19 Feb 2009 04:29

fredric wrote:A puzzle...it's a great question. Could the Scholls Catholic faith have figured into the decision to bury the bodies instead of dissect and cremate? Could Father Alt have been involved?
Pastor Karl Alt administered the last rites to Hans and Sophie Scholl. He was evidently not a Catholic priest, but a Protestant pastor. He administered the Heilige Abendmahl, the Lord's Supper to them.
Christoph Probst was assisted by Father Speer, a Roman Catholic chaplain. Probst had never been baptized, but he felt a strong inclination towards Catholic faith. He was admitted into the Church in articulo mortis (at the point of death). He received his first (and last) communion and said: "Now my death will be easy and joyful".

Source: Richard Hanser, A Noble Treason
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by fredric » 19 Feb 2009 07:52

Peter wrote:Have photos survived of Gropler, Reindel, Muehl, Kleine, Reichhart, Rottger, etc ?
Many photos of Reichhart exist as well as motion picture footage of him executing war criminals (hanging).
I have seen photos of a few scharfrichters: Weiss, Bordt (posted on this site), Haendschke, Hehr and Brandt, a pre-war executioner. I have searched for Rottger and the others with no success. My guess is that RMJ files, wherever they may be, might contain such photos of the officially appointed executioners...id photos. Typically executioners, regardless of nationality, avoid publicity.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by fredric » 19 Feb 2009 07:55

mick55 wrote:I'm fairly sure the Scholl's were Lutheran, although Bavaria is majority catholic it could be (likely) that the prison chaplain was catholic. I could hardly see the officials of the NSDAP government being too concerned about the religious mores of enemies of the state, apparently the parents were sent a bill for wear and tear on the fallbeil in executing their children.
Correct. A quick check shows that the Scholls all were Lutheran. I have not seen a bill for the execution sent to her parents although this was the practice.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by fredric » 19 Feb 2009 08:01

Pete26 wrote:What I gather from several replies is that it is highly probable then that the families of the Scholl siblings and Christoph Probst were allowed to attend their funeral, but all arrangements were already made by the prison officials, including the burial site, and perhaps they were not even allowed to view the bodies inside closed caskets (or simple pine coffins with nailed lids most likely). In this case I agree that the heads were probably between the legs of each body, or loosely placed in the neck area. Can you imagine a parent looking at the beheaded body of their child in the casket with the head between the legs? Surely the clothes would be soaked with blood and so would the head, unless they washed the bodies prior to placing them in caskets. And yes, it is likely that the bodies of executed at Stadelheim were buried rather than being sent to anatomical institutes for dissection. Maybe there wasn't any institute nearby or they were not interested in the bodies?

Note: Following judicial beheadings by a sword in Saudi Arabia today, the head is sown back on the body by a physician
Munich's Ludwig-Maximillian University's Anatomical Institute allegedly still has cadavers and body parts from executed persons. They have declined to investigate this allegation. I have to believe some cadavers from Stadelheim were sent there or to a local crematorium.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Peter » 19 Feb 2009 12:11

Were Karl Gropler and Johann Reichhart the only Scharfrichter to use the hand-axe as well as the fallbeil ?

Which executioners used the hand-axe ?

Thank you

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