Beheadings in the Third Reich

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Paul53
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2656

Post by Paul53 » 17 Jun 2009, 19:58

Paul53 wrote:I spent 2, 5 hours to translate a three page manuscript and now I am told that it is gone.


Anyway,I do not intend to repeat it as I can more economically summerize it.But where did the post go??

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2657

Post by David Thompson » 17 Jun 2009, 21:36

Paul53 -- You asked:
But where did the post go??
Once a day, the server backs up all of the AHF files. Sometimes if you try to post while this is going on, the post is "dropped" by the server, never to be seen again. I've had that happen to me several times, so it's best to keep a copy when you're ready to post. The server operation takes place in the middle of the night in Sweden, where it's located, but that works out to late afternoon-early evening in the US.


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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2658

Post by Paul53 » 17 Jun 2009, 23:08

Well just bad luck. Ill summerize it then.
The author could not suppress a certain uncertainty about the inmates having a tendency towards throwing themselves upon the execution officials, the inmates being of a most strong physical built and inclined to react in an exececution-induced blood thirsth.It would be a 5 man crew against the Execution officials(4 plus the convict)

The author regarded the presence of armed guards as essential.

The author was opposed to using male inmates for the execution of females as he feared>sexually induced abberations< to take place during execution, especially when considering the fact that the inmates were locked up for years without ever meeting females/ Even the handling of the executed bodies was suspect as the executed were mostly young women .

Executing them would be a reason for gossip and dirty talk,and wold be a reason for contamination and roughening of the prison Regime. The resulting danger to the order,tightness and rule would have been unacceptable.

Therfore, he declined the proposition to let the Death Sentence be taken out by inmates.He needed a lot of lines to explain that

The General State Attourney had similar views;in the RJM, it was decided not to follow thoughts along these lines any further.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2659

Post by Paul53 » 23 Jun 2009, 17:36

The treatment of the body after execution.

Berlin,january 7th 1945: ""In case the family did not request the posession of the corpse,and in case such a request is not made for the period that the body is still in the institution,the body is handed over by me to an Anatomical Institution of a University ,for educational-and research purposes as already mentioned in the execution order, insofar as this Institution sends an official to the execution site.

In case it is requested so, and depending of the space available, the officials of the Anatomical Institute is to be made available a room[ in the immediate vincinity of the execution site] for their activities,which should be well lit.This room should like the execution room itself not be used by the inmates as work room.It must be seern to it however, that the coffin containing the executed body, be handed over in this room as soon as possible to the officials of the Institute.In sofar as the brains of the executed are requested by institutes for cerebral microscopical research activities,the appropriate procedure is to be followed.


In case the Anatomical Instutute has no use for the body,or in case no official of the Institute reports,the body is to be handed over to the Police for burial.In case the family request the body after execution of the death sentence during the period that the autoption is taking place,then the family is to be notified that the request can not be taken into consideration on grounds of it being made too late""

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2660

Post by Paul53 » 23 Jun 2009, 17:54

The final act of the execution procedure was as a rule, the processing of the body by the Anatomists.After the execution was over, the coffin containing the body was delivered to an neighbouring room.The prison docter had, as prescribed, to fill out forms for every executioned,describing name, date of death, and cause of death.The corpse, now in the adjacing room, was either handed over to the representatives of the Anatomical institution, or directly to the Ordnungspolizei for burial.In case the way from the place of execution to the Anatomical Institute was short,the corpses were left in the coffins and were loaded onto an inconspicuous lorry,carried off and prepared in the Institute.When handed over to the Ordnungspolizei, the body was transported as a rule to the nearest crematorium,or in case of a burial, to the nearest cemetary.
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2661

Post by Paul53 » 23 Jun 2009, 18:06

For a following complete-or detailed obduction,or for an immediate fixation of the body with formaldehyde,the representatives of the Anatomical Institutions could in most execution sites,in the same room that was used to store the bodies in, use a sobre obduction table,a water connection,a drain and a small instrument table with chairs.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2662

Post by Pete26 » 24 Jun 2009, 01:46

Paul53 wrote:
In case the Anatomical Institute has no use for the body,or in case no official of the Institute reports,the body is to be handed over to the Police for burial.In case the family requests the body after execution of the death sentence during the period that the autopsy is taking place, then the family is to be notified that the request can not be taken into consideration on grounds of it being made too late. "
Supreme bureaucrats devoid of any human compassion.
Last edited by Pete26 on 24 Jun 2009, 01:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2663

Post by Pete26 » 24 Jun 2009, 01:50

Paul53 wrote:For a following complete-or detailed obduction,or for an immediate fixation of the body with formaldehyde,the representatives of the Anatomical Institutions could in most execution sites,in the same room that was used to store the bodies in, use a sobre obduction table,a water connection,a drain and a small instrument table with chairs.
About this treatment of the body with formaldehyde: Is the author referring to an embalming procedure, which would mean arterial injection of the embalming fluid (which contains formaldehyde), or soaking the whole body in some kind of container filled with formaldehyde? Preserving bodies to be dissected in vats of formaldehyde solution is typical for anatomical institutes or medical schools.

Does the author mention anything about sawing the head back onto the body following a beheading? I imagine that something like this could be done if the body were to be released to the family for a burial. I just cannot imagine giving them the body with its head between the legs in a casket.
Last edited by Pete26 on 24 Jun 2009, 05:11, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2664

Post by Pete26 » 24 Jun 2009, 01:55

Paul53 wrote:When handed over to the Ordnungspolizei, the body was transported as a rule to the nearest crematorium,or in case of a burial, to the nearest cemetery.
What determined whether the body was cremated or buried? Close proximity of either a crematorium or a cemetery?
Cremation would be in my opinion the preferred method of body disposal as it eliminates the evidence of a judicial murder.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2665

Post by Paul53 » 24 Jun 2009, 17:57

Well Pete,I gave a WBW translation, so all the info is what was written.Author says nothing about preservation,but I think it would be more practical to preserve body parts than whole bodies, as you would need quite a basin to do that.

Further,I fully agree that cremation would be preferable over burial,and stories that I read about Brandenburg/Gorden seem to confirm that cremation was the favourite means of disposing unwanted evidence. But perhaps burial took place when there was no crematorium nearby.


Treatment(continued)

A description of an obduction provides a list of the instruments needed:""It is to be ensured,that with the opening of the corpse, the following instruments and objects are present,in a workable state:
1 double edge brain dissecting knife( with a rounded point
2 long organ knifes(rounded point)
2 small preparation knifes
1 razor
2 strong cartiledge knifes with extended metal handles
1 planing iron(Raspatorium)
2 anatomical hooks and two pincers
2 scissors,a heavy one with one blade rounded,and another with a sharp blade
1 intestine scissors
1 large and 2 smaller drains
1 spinal column opener(Rachiotom)
1 bowsaw and 1 pointed saw
1 bone forceps(for use on the vertibrae)
1 dura plier(to severe the dura mater from the brain)
1 chisel and 1 hammer
1 cartiledge scissors
4 sharp stitching needles and 2 rolls of anatomical twine(cat gut)
1 stiff nailbrush

further several measure instruments,pans and stainless steel airtight boxes ,rubber gloves and aprons,and sponges""
Last edited by Paul53 on 24 Jun 2009, 19:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2666

Post by Paul53 » 24 Jun 2009, 18:32

Areas to where the corpses were delivered.
Part 1.

"""Here is the place where Death is glad to serve Life""
These words are written in latin over the entrance of the Anatomical Institute of Berlin University in the Charite Hospital.
Indeed, since the exsistence of anatomical institutes, it was not uncommon to provide the institutions with the corpses of those executed,for the training of medical personell.Especially, the corpses of the executed from the central execution sites of the RJM ,offered the most fresh and pure human material and were excellently suited for research and education.
As the small amount of corpses-during "" normal"" execution procedure,which lasted to 1939- could not in the least cover the amount needed for education purposes,it was decided to use the corpses of those who died in care centres,centres for the homeless, and from mental institutions.

The bodies of executed were as a rule handed over to the Anatomical Institutions of Universities,closest to the execution site.Every execution site therefor,used the services(when desired) of the anatomical institute to get rid of the bodies.Every anatomical institute had as a result,a more or less defined area for deliverance of bodies.

The new arrangement that was made for execution of the death sentence,consequently caused a new arrangement in relation to the supply key of the bodies of executed to be handed to the anatomical institutes of german Universities,and so a change of the boundries of the areas where the bodies were delivered from,as from 1937 onwards,the execution of the Death sentences was centralized ,and was only carried out in specific judicial execution institutes.

Every execution site was allowed one or more anatomical institutes to ship their corpses to,every Institute an execution site to gather their corpses from.
(list followes)

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2667

Post by Paul53 » 24 Jun 2009, 18:55

Berlin Plotzensee/to Anatomical Institute Berlin ,Anatomical Institute Greifswald
Breslau/to Anatomical Institute Breslau
Dresden/to Anatomical Institute Leipzig
Frankfurt am Main/to Anatomical Institutes Frankfurt am Main , Gieszen and Marburg
Hamburg-Stadt/to Anatomical Institutes Hamburg, Rostock and Kiel
Koln/to Anatomical Institutes Bonn, Muenster and Koln
Konigsberg/ to Anatomical Institute Konigsberg
Muenchen/Stadelheim/to Anatomical Institute Muenchen, Erlangen,Wuerzburg and Innsbruck
Stuttgart/to Anatomical Institute Freiburg, Heidelberg and Tuebingen
Weimar/to the Anatomical Institute Halle, and Jena
Wolffenbuettel/to Anatomical Institute Gottingen
Wien/ to Anatomical Institute Wien and Graz .

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2668

Post by Pete26 » 25 Jun 2009, 05:26

Paul53 wrote:
Treatment(continued)

A description of an obduction provides a list of the instruments needed:""It is to be ensured,that with the opening of the corpse, the following instruments and objects are present,in a workable state:
1 double edge brain dissecting knife( with a rounded point
2 long organ knifes(rounded point)
2 small preparation knifes
1 razor
2 strong cartiledge knifes with extended metal handles
1 planing iron(Raspatorium)
2 anatomical hooks and two pincers
2 scissors,a heavy one with one blade rounded,and another with a sharp blade
1 intestine scissors
1 large and 2 smaller drains
1 spinal column opener(Rachiotom)
1 bowsaw and 1 pointed saw
1 bone forceps(for use on the vertibrae)
1 dura plier(to severe the dura mater from the brain)
1 chisel and 1 hammer
1 cartiledge scissors
4 sharp stitching needles and 2 rolls of anatomical twine(cat gut)
1 stiff nailbrush

further several measure instruments,pans and stainless steel airtight boxes ,rubber gloves and aprons,and sponges""
Paul, given the list of these instruments and supplies, one would assume that a complete autopsy was conducted on some of these bodies? Or was it a shortened procedure?
Here is what an autopsy procedure involves:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/pathology/auto ... ters-guide

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2669

Post by Paul53 » 25 Jun 2009, 16:39

Another long post has mysteriously disappeared.A bit annoying.I will subdivide the post.

In this arrangement, made in 1939, several areas that were occupied after that year, were not included, as were the Anatomical Institutes of Danzig,Poznan,Strasbourg and Prague.Also, the later installed execution sites of Brandenburg/Gorden,Poznan,Halle, Katowitz,Prag/Pankraz ,Graz,Dortmund,Danzig, Bruchsal and Dreibergen-Buetzow were not represented.

Before,and after, the new arrangement, trouble emerged, because not all the Anatomical Institutions were informed of the new arrangement/ that is to execute in central execution sites in Germany/and were frequently not informed about executions in their region, so that the Institutions did not receive any bodies at all.
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#2670

Post by Paul53 » 25 Jun 2009, 17:09

This situation baffled the staff of Halle University and caused them to write in 1938: "" Before the year 1933,the Anatomical Institute did not receive one single executed body in a ten years period, as the Death sentence was abolished then.Since its reintroduction in 1933,the Anatomy was granted permission to receive preparates, or we would receive whole bodies.Therefore it was possible to manufacture scientific preparates,crucial for educating medical students.

As we saw in the newspaper,several executions took place in our area, without us receiving the corpses of the executed.Inquiries made with the General State Attourneys reveiled,that in almost no case, the Death Sentence was carried out in the same town that it was imposed on the convict.The executions take place in Wolffenbuettel or Weimar.The bodies were in this case delivered to University Gottingen, in another case to Jena.Halle Anatomy would receive after the new arrangement,no bodies at all anymore.In Magdeburg, the province capital,where untill now the most executions were carried out,but here too, we did not receive the corpses in most cases.Therefore, I allow myself to plead with the Minister,to arrange with the Reich minister of Justice,that the allocation of corpses of executed will be made to the University of the city that the death sentence was spoken out in,irrespectively of where the execution takes place.I would further like to remark, that the Halle Anatomical Institute is responsable for the whole province of Sachsen and Anhalt in relation to the processing of corpses.""
Last edited by Paul53 on 26 Jun 2009, 03:17, edited 1 time in total.

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