Beheadings in the Third Reich

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Piotr1
Member
Posts: 332
Joined: 16 Sep 2007 05:24
Location: Poland

ehhh boys....

Post by Piotr1 » 04 Nov 2011 18:19

Image

The photo is not a top secret.Is also presented in Strafvollzugsmuseums in Ludwigsburg
This one is a"photo from the photo" :lol:

Ypenburg
Member
Posts: 542
Joined: 28 Jul 2006 20:45

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Ypenburg » 04 Nov 2011 19:04

Ehhh Piotr1,

17. April 1885 in Braunschweig. :idea:

User avatar
JTG
Member
Posts: 840
Joined: 20 Mar 2006 21:10
Location: R.N. La Mare, Jersey, British Channel Islands

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by JTG » 04 Nov 2011 22:36

Which is the executioner? Is he shown in the first photograph?

User avatar
andreobrecht
Member
Posts: 191
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 01:58
Location: USA

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by andreobrecht » 05 Nov 2011 03:51

Executioner is on the right side of the scaffold, furthest away from the camera. In the execution photo he has taken off his hat and jacket which are held by the man on the right.
There are two assistants holding down the condemned from each side plus one holding his head.

User avatar
andreobrecht
Member
Posts: 191
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 01:58
Location: USA

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by andreobrecht » 05 Nov 2011 15:11

What was the difference in height between the GermanfFallbeils and the French models? The German guillotines look considerable smaller and therefore must have had a heavier blade assembly. Do you have any idea of the respective weights of the blade assembly of the fallbeil and the French model?
On the modern French guillotine the blade assembly weighed around 47 kg and fell 2.15 meters The machine was 4.5 meters tall. The 1854 German fallbeil was 3.10 meters tall, the sledge weighed about 65 kg and fell 1.1 meters. The French machine had much more kinetic energy but both had plenty to do the job.

Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 02:19
Location: USA

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Pete26 » 06 Nov 2011 04:53

andreobrecht wrote:
What was the difference in height between the GermanfFallbeils and the French models? The German guillotines look considerable smaller and therefore must have had a heavier blade assembly. Do you have any idea of the respective weights of the blade assembly of the fallbeil and the French model?
On the modern French guillotine the blade assembly weighed around 47 kg and fell 2.15 meters The machine was 4.5 meters tall. The 1854 German fallbeil was 3.10 meters tall, the sledge weighed about 65 kg and fell 1.1 meters. The French machine had much more kinetic energy but both had plenty to do the job.
A typical Tegel fallbeil is only 225 cm (2.25 meters) tall, as the upper cable pulleys are hidden inside the top frame crosspiece. The blade fall distance is probably just about 1 meter. The weight of the blade/sledge on Pankrac Tegel is specified as 60 kg. The blade speed of a fallbeil at the lower extreme of its travel is roughly 2/3 that of a French guillotine.

After the blade is released, it will hit the bottom in about 2/3 of a second on a French guillotine, and in about 1/2 of a
second on a fallbeil.

The blade speed when the blade hits the bottom will be about 6.5 m/s for a French guillotine, and about 4.6 m/s for a fallbeil.

The corresponding kinetic energy, using Andre's sledge/blade weights and fall heights will be 993 Joules for a French guillotine, and 688 Joules for an 1854 model fallbeil. Therefore, the fallbeil blade energy at the bottom of its travel is roughly 70% of that of a French guillotine blade.
Last edited by Pete26 on 06 Nov 2011 05:23, edited 2 times in total.

Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 02:19
Location: USA

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Pete26 » 06 Nov 2011 05:01

andreobrecht wrote:Executioner is on the right side of the scaffold, furthest away from the camera. In the execution photo he has taken off his hat and jacket which are held by the man on the right.
There are two assistants holding down the condemned from each side plus one holding his head.
You can clearly see straps on the bench for securing the condemned in the first photo. Assuming they strapped the man to the bench, why did they need five men to hold him? Seems like an overkill (pun intended) to me.

I am somewhat puzzled by the difference in size of the Richtbeil leather sheath on the table in the two pictures. On closer inspection, it appears that there is a smudge covering part of the sheath in the first photo. Can this "smudge" be a rag or a blanket of some kind concealing most of the axe from view?

User avatar
Der Vollstrecker
Member
Posts: 14
Joined: 05 Nov 2011 04:25
Location: Germany

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Der Vollstrecker » 06 Nov 2011 06:59

Despite existing leather strips for buckling, one often did already at that time without these, in order to accelerate the execution. Thus the Delinquent simply held by a pair assistants till the hatchet fell. Yes, which is correct: in the photo 1 is on the table on the right of a black cloth also under it hidden hatchet to sechen. Besides determines a white cloth is alike, in order to clean the hatchet. The rare photos show the execution 27 years old worker Anton Giepsz in prison in Braunschweig on 17 April 1885. The executioner was Friedrich Reindel - which one with the long beard. On the same morning the codefendants by Giepsz, the 35 years old widow Antonie Kossmieder was led a little later to the scaffold.

User avatar
Der Vollstrecker
Member
Posts: 14
Joined: 05 Nov 2011 04:25
Location: Germany

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Der Vollstrecker » 06 Nov 2011 18:08

And here, for those who have not yet seen:
A short film about the german guillotine and the course of an execution (with english titels):

A short sequence where you see how a variant of the release mechanism of the Fallbeil works:

enjoy...

Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 02:19
Location: USA

Vienna fallbeil execution room

Post by Pete26 » 07 Nov 2011 00:46

Image

The floor drain, into which flowed the blood of beheaded victims, is located directly under the white candle in the center of the memorial.

Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 02:19
Location: USA

German richtbeil

Post by Pete26 » 07 Nov 2011 02:03

Note how massive this axe is when held close to one's head:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/26821728@N07/4986759977

Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 02:19
Location: USA

Heinrich Will

Post by Pete26 » 07 Nov 2011 05:50

Heinrich Will, guillotined on 19 February 1943 in Frankfurt-Preungesheim prison for his anti-Nazi activities.

Image

Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 02:19
Location: USA

Roter Ochse prison execution room

Post by Pete26 » 07 Nov 2011 06:03

Image

Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 02:19
Location: USA

Golda Bancic execution

Post by Pete26 » 08 Nov 2011 01:03

According to this wikipedia article, she was beheaded with an axe in Stuttgart in 1944. Is this true? If so, who was the executioner, and why did they use an axe, not a guillotine? Note that she was beheaded on her 32nd birthday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olga_Bancic

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/idcard.php? ... d=10006244

Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 02:19
Location: USA

Execution of Marguerite Bervoets and Fernande Volral

Post by Pete26 » 08 Nov 2011 01:38

http://www.politiekencultuur.blogspot.c ... g-von.html


An interesting article on execution of these two women in Wonfelbuttel prison on 7 August 1944. The article refers to the execution being carried out in the prison yard, which I think is factually incorrect . In the article there is a well known photo of the Volfenbuttel fallbeil after it was removed from the execution building into the yard, in preparation to being dismantled and put into storage sometimes after WWII. The author of the article probably believed that this fallbeil was permanently located outside and that is where the executions were conducted. Also, it is mentioned in the article that these women were beheaded "face up". Again, I do not know if this is based on any factual information.

We know that Wolfenbuttel prison beheadings were done in a separate building with a small clock tower on top, and not in the prison yard.

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”