Beheadings in the Third Reich

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Pete26
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Re: Pankrac fallbeil new info

#3796

Post by Pete26 » 03 Feb 2012, 06:18

According to some sources I read, just before the liberation of Prague the wooden parts of the fallbeil were burned in Pankrac boiler room furnace, and only the metal parts were thrown into Vltava river from Karl's bridge. The metal parts were retrieved by Czech divers after the war and new wood parts were apparently fabricated to reassemble the fallbeil. As we can see from before and after photographs, the original fallbeil has the blade shield and that was never fabricated and installed on the reassembled fallbeil as it sits today in the Pankrac Memorial.

We have extensively commented on the strange looking bench of the fallbeil as seen in the Zaluji books photographs. The bench is wider than the vertical metal outer frame, and does not appear authentic at all. Also, the wooden legs are slimmer than those in the original fallbeil photo. The wide bench was removed from the fallbeil sometime after 1946 and a narrower, concave bench was installed, which remains there to this day. The thin wooden rear legs were not replaced with thicker ones. Remember the hypothesis I came up with some time ago that there was indeed only one machine, not two? It looks like my guess was correct after all. You pointed out that the outer frames of the two machines were completely different, but now it appears that there were sheet metal covers on the original machine, which were not duplicated on the rebuilt fallbeil.

In any case, it is interesting to finally solve this mystery of two Pankrac fallbeils that apparently weren't. It is unfortunate that they did not use the 1943 fallbeil photo to correctly restore the fallbeil.

There is one correction to your statement above: Even though the Pankrac execution book contains 1079 names, 4 of those were Czech soldiers who were executed by shooting at the Kobylisy firing range in Prague. Therefore, the correct number of executed fallbeil victims is 1075, not 1079. See page 220 of this forum for my complete list of Pankrac fallbeil victims and the names of the four soldiers.

Pete26
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Poznan fallbeil

#3797

Post by Pete26 » 03 Feb 2012, 06:53

We can see from the 1943 photo of the Pankrac fallbeil and 1945 photo of the Poznan fallbeil that they are practically identical machines, both equipped with sturdy bench legs, blade shield and vertical rod blade release mechanism.
Image


mapatma
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Fallbeil vs. Guillotine

#3798

Post by mapatma » 03 Feb 2012, 10:15

Hi everyone. I'm new to posting on this forum but i have been following it for quite a while. the information is incredible on here. it is amazing how much information there is on the German fallbeil even though the majority of the world doesn't even know they exist.

Upon seeing photos of people standing next to fallbeils I am still amazed at how much smaller they are than their French counterparts. With the blade being so heavy one can only imagine the cacophony created when the sledge came crashing down. But since France originally introduced the guillotine to Germany I wonder why Germany didnt introduce their model to France. It is obviously a superior machine as far as efficiency and ease of use. It had to take quite a bit longer to set up a Berger than a Tegel. Not to mention each time the blade was reset someone would have to climb a ladder to remove the rope. Granted France wasn't using their machine anywhere even close to what Germany was. But there is something that is; dare I say, romantic about the French guillotine. While beheading is extremely gruesome the German method seems a lot darker. Hell French and Swiss Guillotines were artistically made! But maybe France still held some regard for human life and had no need for a machine that was designed for mass executions, especially since guillotinings were a very public spectacle.

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gordon anderson
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3799

Post by gordon anderson » 03 Feb 2012, 10:58

Hi Mapatma,
Actually the rope removal on the French cuillotine required NOladder to climb. At he end of the heavy rope that raises the blade, is a metal ring that slips onto a hook on top of the weighted mouton that the blade is bolted to--The heavy rope allows the mouton to be hauled to the top , where it locks automatically in place. A guite narrow line is also attached to the same ring and hangs down to the ground . All that is needed is a downward tug on the fine line and the ring attached to the heavier rope is pulled down and off the hook. An assistant to the executioner then swings the rope to the side of one of the guillotine's posts, where two hooks, one above the other, hold it out of the way.
I will tell you the when I worked the French and Swiss guillotines, my feelings were completely different than what I felt working the two German types. With both Fallbeil types, I felt a nervousness and I was a bit unsettled. Because frankly to me it looks like a butchering machine. When i thought of how it was used under Hitler I felt a repulsion. Truly . I also agree with your aesthetic comments !

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andreobrecht
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3800

Post by andreobrecht » 03 Feb 2012, 15:26

Thank you Pete. I will correct the number of victims on my website. Wikipedia lists it as 1079 but my Czech correspondent had correctly told me 1075. My mistake to trust Wikipedia over him.
The part about the wood floating away was an explanation about why those parts were lost. He did not know that they were burned. It is pretty likely that large light pieces like the head bucket and blade shield could have been carried away by the current as well, at least far enough that divers would have had trouble locating them. As for the post cover plates and blood guard the same could have happened if the fallbeil was completely dismantled before it was thrown in the river.
I any case after comparing close up shots of the Pankrac fallbeil with photos of other Tegels every detail matches, so there is no reason to believe it is not the original. Why this one would have been modified extensively while others (DHM, Poznan, Katowice) made it through 1945 without any modification... who knows? I think the logical answer is that most of the modifications, if not all, were made post-1945.

hiker
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Re: Fallbeil vs. Guillotine

#3801

Post by hiker » 03 Feb 2012, 23:04

mapatma wrote:I wonder why Germany didnt introduce their model to France. It is obviously a superior machine as far as efficiency and ease of use. I
The French guillotine was designed for disassembly for travel to "appointments", whereas the German ones were not easily transportable and were bolted in place. So they would not work for the French.

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fredric
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Re: Fallbeil vs. Guillotine

#3802

Post by fredric » 04 Feb 2012, 00:26

mapatma wrote:Hi everyone. I'm new to posting on this forum but i have been following it for quite a while. the information is incredible on here. it is amazing how much information there is on the German fallbeil even though the majority of the world doesn't even know they exist.

Upon seeing photos of people standing next to fallbeils I am still amazed at how much smaller they are than their French counterparts. With the blade being so heavy one can only imagine the cacophony created when the sledge came crashing down. But since France originally introduced the guillotine to Germany I wonder why Germany didnt introduce their model to France. It is obviously a superior machine as far as efficiency and ease of use. It had to take quite a bit longer to set up a Berger than a Tegel. Not to mention each time the blade was reset someone would have to climb a ladder to remove the rope. Granted France wasn't using their machine anywhere even close to what Germany was. But there is something that is; dare I say, romantic about the French guillotine. While beheading is extremely gruesome the German method seems a lot darker. Hell French and Swiss Guillotines were artistically made! But maybe France still held some regard for human life and had no need for a machine that was designed for mass executions, especially since guillotinings were a very public spectacle.

Comments?
The method of detaching the weighted hook from the sledge on a German "Mannhardt" was simplicity itself...gravity...an automatic detachment without any help by an assistant. On the Berger the Borreau's assistant (see photos of the Valence executions) disengages the line as Gordon describes. It only takes a moment but no one had to climb up to the blade to do disconnect the hook. FYI...Germany did not introduce its fallbeil design to France because the French already had an elegant machine in use since the late 1700's and further improved in time. German executioners were skilled with and happy with either the richtschwert (short, double-edged, two-handed "heading" sword with a rounded tip) or the richtbeil, the short handled, heavy axe. Both were considered "manly" instruments of justice, requiring personal involvement, not a mechanical, impersonal tool. Germany's first guillotines were modelled after the French with some German twists but in general were based on old guillotines left by Napolean. The next generation of German guillotines (1854) are what we call the Mannhardt's (named after their builder) but probably should be renamed the "Bavarian Fallschwert" (falling-sword) which is the name we find on the early drawings, three of which exist. Examine the "Mannhardt" closely...it is quite an elegant design too and some features were used on the great Swiss (Luzerne) guillotine, perhaps (opinion here) the most artistic ever built. The next generation of German guillotines, which years ago we started calling the "Tegels" were more compact, powerful killing machines. Aesthetically they look like something suited for a mechanized butchershop, a machine tool of glistening sharp steel, blood drain, etc., direct from the drawing board's of the Berlin Polytechical Institute.

Pete26
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3803

Post by Pete26 » 04 Feb 2012, 02:54

What is undeniably most repulsive about German fallbeils is the setting in which they were used. Most of fallbeils were installed inside fully enclosed execution rooms whose walls (and in some cases floors too) were tiled so that it would be easy to hose the blood off the floor and walls after each execution. The overall effect was that of a butcher shop or a slaughterhouse. All executions using French guillotines were conducted outdoors (behind prison walls only after 1934), so the scenery was a lot less revolting overall. Even use of a water hose to clean the fallbeil reminds one of a slaughterhouse. French never used a hose(to my knowledge) to clean the guillotine and the blade in multiple executions - typically they threw several buckets of water over the bloodied parts of the guillotine and used a sponge to clean the blade.

And of course, except for the short duration of the French revolution, French guillotines were never used with frequency typical of German fallbeils during Hitler's dictatorship. It was not unusual for German scharfrichters to behead twenty people in a single session that took less than an hour of total time. Such mass executions were simply not performed with any other guillotines in the world, other than during the brief period of the French revolution.

Pete26
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Vienna and Pankrac fallbeils

#3804

Post by Pete26 » 04 Feb 2012, 04:52

These two fallbeils are the only known ones that have a horizontal blade release lever. If that is the case, the question that needs to be answered is whether these release levers were substituted some time later and never were a part of the original fallbeil design. It seems that all fallbeils built in the Tegel prison workshops were all identical, with a solid vertical pull rod for blade release and sturdy wooden bench legs.

If the Pankrac fallbeil was rebuilt after the war using the Vienna fallbeil as an example, then at some point the Vienna fallbeil must have received the modifications (thick bench legs and horizontal release lever, with removal of the outer frame sheet metal covers). Do we know what happened to the Vienna fallbeil throughout its existence and what it looked like when originally made and delivered?

If both of these fallbeils were modified, then it is safe to say that there was only one model Tegel fallbeil.

Are there any fallbeil drawings in existence that show the horizontal blade release lever mechanism and thin bench rear legs?

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fredric
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Re: Vienna and Pankrac fallbeils

#3805

Post by fredric » 04 Feb 2012, 07:36

Pete26 wrote:These two fallbeils are the only known ones that have a horizontal blade release lever. If that is the case, the question that needs to be answered is whether these release levers were substituted some time later and never were a part of the original fallbeil design. It seems that all fallbeils built in the Tegel prison workshops were all identical, with a solid vertical pull rod for blade release and sturdy wooden bench legs.

If the Pankrac fallbeil was rebuilt after the war using the Vienna fallbeil as an example, then at some point the Vienna fallbeil must have received the modifications (thick bench legs and horizontal release lever, with removal of the outer frame sheet metal covers). Do we know what happened to the Vienna fallbeil throughout its existence and what it looked like when originally made and delivered?

If both of these fallbeils were modified, then it is safe to say that there was only one model Tegel fallbeil.

Are there any fallbeil drawings in existence that show the horizontal blade release lever mechanism and thin bench rear legs?
Vienna got its Tegel around 1937 from the Berlin-Tegel workshop. Photos (about 1946) of the Vienna and Pancrac fallbeils show both with the "horizontal release lever". The lever (which pulls a wire) can also seen in the 1946 film (Bryant film) posted on the Holocaust Museum site (Speilberg collection). I recently was sent a photo of a third fallbeil with a similar horizontal release lever which is in a Czech (?) Hungarian (?) museum. Might be Hradcany Castle? If interested, check it out at www.hrad-kost.cz/stredoveka-mucirna.php. Wish I could read Czech...or is it Hungarian? This machine is part Mannhardt, part Tegel and might be fake or part real, part fake. Regarding if the original Tegel drawings still exist...I have been told that the original Tegel drawings by the PTI "disappeared".

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andreobrecht
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3806

Post by andreobrecht » 04 Feb 2012, 08:05

Fredric: From the website it appears to be your "generic" torture museum with reproduction artifacts. The theme appears to be medieval, not WW2 war crimes... My hunch is that it is a modern fallbeil imitation loosely based on various real designs. Better pictures of the object would help confirm or dismiss this first impression.

Pete: As you have probably noted both the Vienna and Pankrac fallbeils have the copy head bucket mounted too low and attached only by the lower brackets on the frame leaving the upper brackets unused. This tells me that both machines had the proper head bucket at some point in time... The reproduction buckets are identical, which would point to either the same person restoring both or one restoration using the other as a model. Making identical errors on two restorations is too much of a coincidence for me. I believe both fallbeils were mostly lost/destroyed at the end of the war and then restored later (or much later). I am guessing that the Vienna fallbeil was copied on the Pankrac and not vice-versa since the Pankrac memorial was already inaugurated in 1946.

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Max
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Re: Vienna and Pankrac fallbeils

#3807

Post by Max » 04 Feb 2012, 09:42

fredric wrote: Wish I could read Czech...or is it Hungarian?
Sure you can speak Czech [ Who speaks Hungarian?]
http://www.hrad-kost.cz/en/medieval-torture-chamber.php
Greetings from the Wide Brown.

Piotr1
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3808

Post by Piotr1 » 04 Feb 2012, 12:55


tomh
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3809

Post by tomh » 04 Feb 2012, 15:32

What about this machine? The site where I found this picture says this one is from Dachau.
The head bucket and the release lever are similar to the Pancraz and Vienna fallbeils.
Or is this actually one of these two?
dachau.jpg
dachau.jpg (23.52 KiB) Viewed 2311 times

Piotr1
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#3810

Post by Piotr1 » 04 Feb 2012, 16:13

It's a Long Way to Tipperary ;-)
You have start with page no 1 and post no 1 :milsmile:

Of course there is Pankrac fallbeil.

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