Beheadings in the Third Reich

[andreobrecht]

Just another example that came to mind:
Johannes Prassek, Eduard Muller and Hermann Lange, catholic priests from Lubeck, and Karl Friedrich Stellbrink, a Lutheran minister, that were all four tried, sentenced and guillotined for preaching against the Nazi policy of euthanizing mentally handicapped children and other Nazis cleansing policies - clearly a very serious "crime" .

[Kilgore Trout]

So how does this differ from the Soviet Union under "Uncle Joe" Stalin? You know: the #2 murderer of history, who was an ally of "The West." Or the People's Republic of China under Mao? You know: the #1 murderer of history, who was an ally of "The West." Or the U.S.? Or S. Africa? Chile? Or - pick your country. ALL of these are crimes. Why concentrate on the sins of Germany while excluding all others? Where is the distributive justice in such an approach? As the Book of John put it: "Let the one of you who is without sin cat the first stone." And yet, this is one of the largest debates in this forum. Does no one else perceive the hypocrisy of this?
I have a ragged old paperback book "A New Handbook on Hanging," written by Charles Duff. The original volume was published in the 1920's, and argued for an end to capital punishment in Britain. The "New" copy I have is a revised version published c. 1956, featuring new data, including the fiasco of the "executions" (murders by hanging) after the Nuremberg show trials. This time, Mr. Duff was successful. In 1959 or '60, Britain shed its barbarian coat and abolished capital punishment. My own country could not become so civilised for another 16 years.

[andreobrecht]

Are you arguing that because other nations committed atrocities, Nazi Germany should be absolved of hers?

I read that your first line of arguments was that executions performed under the laws of the Third Reich were perfectly legal and justified... Now you move to a second line of arguments: We shouldn't judge Nazi War crimes because others have committed war crimes too...

This thread discusses Axis History and therefore the crimes committed by Mao or Stalin do not belong on the forum. While in total numbers Stalin and Mao may have outdone Hitler (They had more years and larger populations to victimize) the Nazi regime holds the dubious honor of having committed the most heinous and evil acts. The systematic elimination of helpless and innocent people (Jews, Roma, handicapped and homosexuals) based on arbitrary hatred/dislike and not because they were any threat to Nazi power will rank you way up there on the scale of pure evil.

Finally you invoke the New testament to rebuke us for condemning Nazi war crimes... Are you kidding? I haven't gassed or beheaded any innocent people lately and feel totally justified in pointing out that the Nazi justice system was fundamentally evil and corrupt.
What is your point? Do you feel compelled to defend Nazi Germany for some ideological reasons? If that is the underlying cause for your arguments I think that there is no point to the discussion.

[Der Vollstrecker]

This theme deals primarily with the enforcement of the death penalty by decapitation in the Third Reich. In my view, the issue has little to do with the Holocaust, and only partly with the war crimes. Of course, the atrocities of the Nazi regime can not be justified. The judicial system was then used as an instrument of relentless elimination, and the fact remains. It should not be overlooked that the beheading as an instrument of execution of the death penalty is a longer history than that of the Third Reich. The actual murderers, poisoners, sex offenders were not spared this fate, and after the law then in most cases have been justified (review of the two books"Criminal History of the Third Reich" - with most of the crime stories my hair stand on mountains). In the Emperor's kingdom, as well as in France, it has not been different. Here it goes in this forum in general to the tradition of beheading in Germany until the abolition of the death penalty. The associated techniques, names and ceremonial are an important part of the topic. This branch of the forum is not a political discussion - it's about the facts.

[Kilgore Trout]

And the facts are that virtually every government in history has inflicted immense brutality upon people - from other nations or its own - whenever it felt so compelled. As John Milton put it - "Necessity, the tyrant's plea." To attempt to declare the acts of the Third Reich as any more or any worse than those perpetrated by myriad other governments before, during, or after its existence is highly subjective to the point of outright bias. It is selective, and ignores the sins of others. YES, those other's sins are equally as wrong and equally deserving or opprobium. It also is divorced from the context of the time and place, and so cannot be a fair judgment. Killing anyone, anytime, anywhere is never justifiable. That's why it is a mortal sin in every religion I have studied - and that is a lot. China under Mao destroyed about 5 times more people than the Third Reich. The S.U. under Stalin about 3 times more. How many native Americans died by murder or being inflicted with disease by the U.S. government? No one knows because they weren't considered important enough to bother counting.
To sit about and debate the minutiae of how some poor soul was destroyed by this or that method is morbid to the point of pathological. It also deflects attention from the shortcomings of the history - and in some cases, the current events - of our own countries. It all gets drowned under the illusion that X or Y or Z were somehow worse. There is merit in the view of "before you accuse me, take a look at yourself." Don't go on kidding yourselves.

[andreobrecht]

Let me remind you that your first post questioned why "legal" executions in the Third Reich should be classified as war crimes. Since then your two subsequent posts have been focused on trying to dismiss or minimize discussion of Nazi war crimes in light of "crimes" committed by other nations. I fail to see how other historical tragedies such as the destruction of the American Indian society by colonists or the Cultural Revolution in China makes the war crimes of Nazi Germany less worthy of discussion or less abject?

All I see here is an attempt to make excuses for a regime that ranks, in every aspect of its philosophy, beliefs and actions as one of lowest - if not the lowest - in human history. The fact that others may have come close does not in any way change this fact. The purpose of keeping such discussions alive is so that we never forget and never let such people come to power again. I am far off topic here but your posts are really disturbing and make me wonder about your motives...

[David Thompson]

A no-content rubbish post by waldzee, containing a frivolous link and adding nothing of informational value to the discussion, was deleted by the moderator - DT.

[waldzee]

Mia Culpa
I believe that the respondents are ascribing motives to other debaters which have not been expressed- which is nto conductive to 'good debate'.

[svenga]

Yes other countries have carried out sickening things, and yes some aspects of the third Reich were glorious and get shrubbed up with stereotypical hatred.

However I find the posts in question no help to this discussion at all sadly, this is about 'beheadings' in the 'reich' and anything directly associated with it. So let the continued appropriate posts flow.

Sorry for my lack of posts, I have had nothing relevant to contribute.. I did however experiment with my scale fallbeil the other day using fake blood, the finished result and washing it down with water did give an eary effect and slight chill.

Plans for a tegal are underway and certain materials ate being located.

Hope everyone is well.

Sven.

[Kilgore Trout]

For "andreobrecht": 1. See comment by "Waldzee" above. 2. Your opinion of Nazi Germany is your opinon. Take it and a bit of $ and go buy a cup of coffee.
The problem with your approach is that, in excessively demonising the acts of one, you overlook the sins of many. The Third Reich was NOT the first, nor will it be the last, and is not even the most recent government to oppress or murder people. To try to stridently claim picayune matters of detail is irrelevant. The poor souls who were victimised remain just as dead, irrespective of how they died. It is a fool's game to "remember" X and ignore the rest of the alphabet.
At least 36 of my Polish relatives disappeared into the maw of death, destruction and desolation sometime between Christmas 1944 and the war's end. No trace could ever be found of them. And they were not Jewish, or Roma, or homosexual (who knows? Maybe some were.). They were just plain old every-day Polish Catholics.
Were they killed by Nazis? Who knows? Were they killed by Soviets? Who knows? Did they get dragged off to a Soviet Gulag? Who knows? Did they perhaps linger there, suffering and dying for many decades as so many others did? (Here, I think of a Hungarian soldier capture at Stalingrad in 1942 who was found walking along a Siberian road in 2002) Who knows? All we know is that they came to an end they did not desire, did not choose, and likely did not enjoy and we who still remain mourn them.
NOBODY needs reminding that humans have been, can be, and will be unspeakably cruel to the world around them and the life on it. Spend less time "remembering" and a lot more time - always - acting to be the best person you can be, to be charitable, to do good. And cease the pretentious posturing and presumption that railing about "evil Nazis" is any more relevant than "evil (pick your group)." Or do you have brown eyes? (The more astute will know what I mean here.)

[andreobrecht]

I hope you follow through and go tell people on other forums that deal with the history of slavery in America, the destruction of the Native American people or human rights violations in Iran that by focusing on those subjects they overlook the sins of many... What exactly did you expect to find on a forum dealing with the Holocaust and Nazi war crimes?

I note that in your opinion I "excessively demonize" the acts of Nazi Germany... I actually don't know how you could "excessively demonize" the acts of a regime that systematically exterminated 6 million people because of their racial/ethnic background, started a war that killed 50 to 70 million people and brought total destruction to its own citizens and to most of Europe?

If the whole point of your posts was to incite people to do better things with their lives than studying the history of the Third Reich why not state so instead of writing posts that appear aimed at whitewashing the actions of the Nazis? How do you believe that not pointing out the evils of the Nazis would help people live better lives and improve humanity? I fail to see what point you are trying to make.

[htk]

Hi all

I think in order to better understand the system behind the Beheading (back to topic) it might help to compare this "legal" killing based on the law, to look at similar executions performed after the war. For instance the mindset of the executioner .. there are on youtube enough present day executioners speaking their mind (a shared position is the executions where legal by law).
One can argue if the laws where cq are justified or not. Could this be compared, does it help us to understand Reichhart ??

Big moral issue ( in my mind) is that stuff happend in NAZI germany which are still in practice today (examples turning the legal status from combattant to terrorist or non-combattant / NACHT und NEBEL vs the CIA flights / and many more examples in many more countries (incl what holland did in Indonesia). My big question is; if such pratices where deemed crimes in Germany (after the war) are then today these practices also crimes ... or if its not by todays standard .. should these practices by NAZI germany not also be deemed "legal" ??
Ofcourse above is NOT applicable for the holocaust

[Pete26]

If one country invades another by force without any provocation from the other side, kills hundreds of thousands of its citizens, occupies and plunders that country, annexes it to its territory, and then creates a perverted "justice system" which considers any opposition to the occupier a capital crime, and deprives certain segment of the population essentially of the right to exist, how can such a justice system be called legal? Why are we even talking about this?

[htk]

hi pete

about invading another country is another topic. Regarding the justice system and the captial punisment , it was in place before the war.
The verdicts against the wehrmacht guys who where put to death because of Fahnflucht ie destertion etc, are still in place.
Is this legal ? I dont know... the verdicts against the soldiers in WW1 shot at dawn (desertion because of shell shock) are still uphelt by the british government till today !
I am not a big fan of the nazi .... but many things things good and bad from the nazi government (excl the holocaust/T4) still can be found back in todays world.

but .. back to topic

[andreobrecht]

I try to be very careful in regard to my own judgements about the Nazi regime. I have been fascinated with World War II and Nazi Germany since a very young age and thus had to examine my own "positive" opinions about them a long time ago. As a teenager I owned an huge collection of German war machinery in model form as well as a few real artifacts like a helmet, bayonet, Mauser rifle and various every day objects decorated with Swastikas. I am visiting the AHS pretty regularly so my fascination level is still up there.

I see myself of old in statements of other posters like "...many things things good and bad from the Nazi government..." and "...some aspects of the third Reich were glorious...". After careful self-examination and study of the historical facts I had to conclude that to see anything good or glorious in the Nazi movement I was wearing rose-colored glasses.
While they did much to revive Germany in 1933 they did it by igniting vile sentiments in people and playing on their fears and antisemitism. While they revived the German economy they did it through war and for war. While they built autobahns and neo-Roman monuments it was to transport war material and hold anti-Semitic rallies. True they were elected democratically but soon crushed all opposition and dismissed any attempt at justice or compassion. One can be fascinated by their military might, their fearless political moves, their innovative war tactics, their inventive weaponry... but is there anything truly good in this? Don't let your fascination with Nazi Germany cloud your judgement on these points.

Now back to the subject...The Nazi justice system... Should it be judged by the few guilty people that it happened to sentence properly but by how many truly innocent people it killed? The fact that deserters and conscience objectors were executed in huge numbers and could be borderline justifiable based on the fact that the Allies shot a small number of deserters during WWI is not a valid argument for dismissing the rest of the facts.

The Nazi courts sentenced and executed tens of thousands of civilians for benign acts that in no way justified capital punishment. There was no due process of law in those courts and the accused had no rights. In case the accused was found innocent or not sentenced to harsh enough punishment higher officials could simply overturn the verdict and order the death penalty with a signature. Since we all agree (I hope) that the holocaust and anti-Semitic laws are completely unjustifiable and constitute war crimes, what of the German laws that "legally" sentenced Germans to death for helping Jews, having sex with Jews, defending Jews in sermons etc.? A judicial system that condemns people to death for refusing to participate in or condone a war crime cannot be deemed just. In such a system every single verdict would have to be re-examined to see if a crime had been committed by the tribunal.