Beheadings in the Third Reich

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Post Reply
User avatar
Paul53
Member
Posts: 1393
Joined: 04 Aug 2007, 17:29
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#6271

Post by Paul53 » 31 Mar 2017, 16:37

Today I received a copy of"Berufswunsch Henker"What shall we do: translate all of it,(some 260 pages) or important pieces that coult give us new info?
I scanned it quickly and superficially, but there is quite a bit of info that we already know.In fact, it relies for a significant part on Waltenbachers unsurpassed study. In fact, the latter"s book is absolutely a standardwork.Please let me know what you think.P

Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007, 03:19
Location: USA

Mannhardt fallbeil blades

#6272

Post by Pete26 » 01 Apr 2017, 02:33

fredric wrote:The blades are not that heavy and I have seen a museum historian lift a blade, slip in two bolts and easily slide it onto the sledge holes, then insert the others and tighten all.

The weight they gave for the Stadelheim Mannhardt blade is 15 kg (33 lbs). That's not exactly light. You must grasp the blade firmly when installing it and when trying to line up the bolt holes. The notched openings in the sides are definitely helpful during blade installation. It was Gordon Anderson who suggested that this was the purpose for the notched sides, and it seems a reasonable explanation. I will attempt to give another explanation: I already observed that notched blades have a 35 degree cutting edge angle, while the straight side blades have a 45 degree cutting edge angle. Steeper 45 degree angle means that more metal is removed and the blade is lighter. Therefore, some metal on a 35 degree cutting edge angle blade is removed, and removing it on the sides where the notches are happens to be the area of low stress. This way both notched and straight side blades weigh about the same.

It is interesting that the blade drawing used for construction of the blades for the Mainz fallbeil was based on a blade with notched sides and the angle of 35 degrees (which I calculated from the given blade dimensions). I suspect that the first Mannhardt blades were in fact notched 35 degree blades, then they experimented with a 45 degree cutting edge blade and perhaps that one cut better and remained sharper longer, so it could be used for more executions. To keep the weight of the blade about the same (and to save on some machining costs too), they simply deleted the side notches. This is of course only a plausible theory, but it is credible.


User avatar
fredric
Member
Posts: 977
Joined: 03 Dec 2004, 05:19
Location: USA Princeton

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#6273

Post by fredric » 01 Apr 2017, 02:53

The early blades I have seen were straight sided.
The earliest photo I have is of the Stadelheimer fallbeil fitted with a straight-sided blade. I date this rare photo
to have been taken 20 Feb. 1895. It is private property. It shows Kisslinger, Xavier Reichhart and
Georg Hinterdorfer with the fallbeil.
I also have a newspaper line-drawing of Xavier with his fallbeil when he became the Scharfrichter
of Bavaria and the blade is straight-sided.
I think the notched blade was also in use at this time. It certainly was
when Hannover's fallbeil was delivered.
Thank you for the valuable engineering info.

Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007, 03:19
Location: USA

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#6274

Post by Pete26 » 01 Apr 2017, 04:48

fredric wrote:The early blades I have seen were straight sided.
The earliest photo I have is of the Stadelheimer fallbeil fitted with a straight-sided blade. I date this rare photo
to have been taken 20 Feb. 1895. It is private property. It shows Kisslinger, Xavier Reichhart and
Georg Hinterdorfer with the fallbeil.
I also have a newspaper line-drawing of Xavier with his fallbeil when he became the Scharfrichter
of Bavaria and the blade is straight-sided.
I think the notched blade was also in use at this time. It certainly was
when Hannover's fallbeil was delivered.
Thank you for the valuable engineering info.
Thanks Fredrick, it is quite possible that straight blades are the original early blades and the notched blade were developed later, or at the same time, who knows. You certainly have seen more photos than I of the early fallbeils.

Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007, 03:19
Location: USA

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#6275

Post by Pete26 » 01 Apr 2017, 05:09

Paul53 wrote:Today I received a copy of"Berufswunsch Henker"What shall we do: translate all of it,(some 260 pages) or important pieces that coult give us new info?
I scanned it quickly and superficially, but there is quite a bit of info that we already know.In fact, it relies for a significant part on Waltenbachers unsurpassed study. In fact, the latter"s book is absolutely a standardwork.Please let me know what you think.P
I personally would like to see pages 108 through 152 translated (Der Scharfrichter Alois Weiss).

User avatar
Paul53
Member
Posts: 1393
Joined: 04 Aug 2007, 17:29
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#6276

Post by Paul53 » 01 Apr 2017, 12:16

OK, Weiss,and Fredrick?

User avatar
Paul53
Member
Posts: 1393
Joined: 04 Aug 2007, 17:29
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#6277

Post by Paul53 » 01 Apr 2017, 15:53

I have an other proposal: I will do the Weiss part, but apart from that I found additional info that was not covered by the Waltenbacher book.But still, let me know what you want .P.I will scoure the text and report. After a first search, Hillebrand states that the number of 12.500 of executed is far too low, considering Wehrmacht- Gestapo -and other victimes that were executed without further notice-and therefore are not represented in the official figure.And that comes interestingly close to the estimation of 31000- over 45.000 death sentences carried out.

User avatar
fredric
Member
Posts: 977
Joined: 03 Dec 2004, 05:19
Location: USA Princeton

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#6278

Post by fredric » 01 Apr 2017, 18:57

Anything you have found that adds to Waltenbacher's information would be enthusiastically received!

1. I will compile and send you my list of parts of Waltenbacher where I have questions. It is not a lot. You did a fine job translating
what I think is the best description of the Central Execution sites ever written. Bravo for that! I too am not in the best
of health but will sent the questions soon. I need to paste together the translations and see if there are any gaps. Your work
is of great value here.

2. Klaus Hillibrand pp. 9 - 108 seem (to my poor German ability) to contain much information. A WBW translation would
be so helpful.

3. I have read a translation of some of the Alois Weiss material. I join Pete on requesting translations of pp.108-152.

4. Perhaps you could translate some of what you think are the more interesting applications ?

User avatar
Paul53
Member
Posts: 1393
Joined: 04 Aug 2007, 17:29
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#6279

Post by Paul53 » 01 Apr 2017, 19:49

OK will do.Sorry to hear you are ill-age, that is. Age and perhaps mileage"l do my best.I"ll read the lot and keep you informed.

User avatar
Paul53
Member
Posts: 1393
Joined: 04 Aug 2007, 17:29
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

#6280

Post by Paul53 » 04 Apr 2017, 20:39

I will begin with the Alois Weiß story.

Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007, 03:19
Location: USA

Delete

#6281

Post by Pete26 » 05 Apr 2017, 05:52

Delete
Last edited by Pete26 on 05 Apr 2017, 05:56, edited 1 time in total.

Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007, 03:19
Location: USA

35 degree vs 45 degree Mannhardt blade

#6282

Post by Pete26 » 05 Apr 2017, 05:54

Here are two Mannhardt blades with different cutting edge angles for comparison. The first one is the Wolfenbuettel blade with notched side and a 35 degree angle cutting edge, the second one is the Stadelheim blade (possibly the very one that killed the Scholls and Probst) with straight sides and a 45 degree angle cutting edge.

Image

http://boisdejustice.com/images/Wolfen.JPG

Image

https://www.welt.de/img/geschichte/zwei ... Scholl.jpg

However, in this photo of a Mannhardt fallbeil taken between 1885 and 1895 you can see a blade with notched sides but the cutting edge angle is around 40 degrees. Perhaps it started out as a 35 degree angle blade but they after successive sharpenings as the cutting edge wore down, the edge angle was made slightly steeper?

Image

http://boisdejustice.com/Germany/Franz_Xaver1.JPG

Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007, 03:19
Location: USA

The execution book of Alois Weiss

#6283

Post by Pete26 » 08 Apr 2017, 04:16

This is a photo of the execution book kept by Pankrac prison executioner Alois Weiss. It contains 1079 names, of those 1075 were beheaded in Pankrac prison and four were shot at the Kobilysy Firing Range in Prague. The execution book handwritten entries cover almost 40 pages.

Image

https://media.novinky.cz/425/604251-original1-q5wsz.jpg


Pete26
Member
Posts: 3108
Joined: 26 Aug 2007, 03:19
Location: USA

Jindřich Vichra

#6285

Post by Pete26 » 08 Apr 2017, 14:23

Image

Jindřich Vichra was a Czech poet. He was beheaded in Pankrac prison on 12 May 1944 at the age of 25.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... a.1944.gif

https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jindřich_Vichra
Last edited by Pete26 on 08 Apr 2017, 14:38, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”