Beheadings in the Third Reich

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
tomh
Member
Posts: 47
Joined: 01 Mar 2011 16:07
Location: Finland

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by tomh » 07 Feb 2021 20:55

fredric wrote:
05 Feb 2021 23:37
Finland , btw, was a great interest to me... I should take a nice sauna and chill out.
Then maybe this interests you, here is a pic of a Finnish axe, very likely used by executioner Lauri Jauhiainen, who was the headsman of Kuopio province in the 1820's. The axe currently belongs to the collections of the Finnish crime museum. I took the photo when this axe was on display in an exhibition in 2019.
axe.jpg
Please post the pic of A. Engelhardt!
Small photos you can easily attach directly to the post with the attachments-function.
Attachments -> Add files -> Place inline
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Andy.X.WorldWar2
Member
Posts: 32
Joined: 09 Feb 2021 19:02
Location: Anonymous

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Andy.X.WorldWar2 » 09 Feb 2021 20:14

The word "beheading" itself has become a censorship due to terrorists and drug criminals. However in most cases beheading has no relationship with terrorism and illegal drug trade, and, to some extent, decapitation by sword or guillotine is quite different from cutting the front of the throat which makes the victim feel pain for a long time.

Andy.X.WorldWar2
Member
Posts: 32
Joined: 09 Feb 2021 19:02
Location: Anonymous

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Andy.X.WorldWar2 » 09 Feb 2021 20:31

Researches on the severed heads seem to be enough. There aren't many researches on the bodies without heads however.
I am curious about these questions:
Will the heart still keep beating for a while right after the neck is severed?
Will there be air left in the lungs?
Will livor mortis happen in spite of the body having dried out nearly all the blood? Will the corpse having died of decapitation decompose more slowly than corpses of other deaths?
Will the blood vessels change looking color?
What will a severed neck look like?

User avatar
fredric
Member
Posts: 950
Joined: 03 Dec 2004 04:19
Location: USA Princeton

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by fredric » 11 Feb 2021 02:25

During WW2, German physicians did collect blood from beheaded bodies directly from the neck arteries, treat it for preservation as is done in blood transfusions and utilize the blood for transfusions to wounded soldiers. Prior to the execution, the condemned's blood type
would be determined. I do not know at how many locations this was done but I have read that blood collection was done at Brandenburg-Gordon Prison and Plotzensee. The collection procedure required a doctor and an assistant. The blood sometimes became contaminated as it was collected. Suggest you read some books about Nazi doctors. I believe one doctor who did this work was a Dr. Bimmler.

The heart does keep beating for a while after the neck is severed.

Yes, some air could remain in the lungs.

A an anatomical drawing of a severed neck used to be on the Internet... Google Images.

Andy.X.WorldWar2
Member
Posts: 32
Joined: 09 Feb 2021 19:02
Location: Anonymous

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Andy.X.WorldWar2 » 12 Feb 2021 14:38

Were there many spectators during executions in the Third Reich? Were people allowed to watch executions in private guillotine or shooting rooms?

User avatar
Hans1906
Member
Posts: 1547
Joined: 06 Jan 2020 23:13
Location: Germany

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Hans1906 » 12 Feb 2021 20:06

fredric,

with all respect, are you able to name sources for your entries in your post #7099 in this topic ?

"I have read..." is not sufficient for me personally.


Hans1906

Andy.X.WorldWar2
Member
Posts: 32
Joined: 09 Feb 2021 19:02
Location: Anonymous

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Andy.X.WorldWar2 » 12 Feb 2021 20:25

Hans1906 wrote:
12 Feb 2021 20:06
fredric,

with all respect, are you able to name sources for your entries in your post #7099 in this topic ?

"I have read..." is not sufficient for me personally.


Hans1906
Hello Hans1906!
As I cannot read the German language, could you please help me know if there was a culture of watching public executions and watching the dead bodies of the executed in Germany? It is so hard for me to search the original documents written in German.

User avatar
Hans1906
Member
Posts: 1547
Joined: 06 Jan 2020 23:13
Location: Germany

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Hans1906 » 12 Feb 2021 20:52

Andy.X.WorldWar2,

no, the subject is too serious to speculate about it here, I do not want to and will not answer your question, please.


Hans1906

Andy.X.WorldWar2
Member
Posts: 32
Joined: 09 Feb 2021 19:02
Location: Anonymous

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Andy.X.WorldWar2 » 12 Feb 2021 21:19

Hans1906 wrote:
12 Feb 2021 20:52
Andy.X.WorldWar2,

no, the subject is too serious to speculate about it here, I do not want to and will not answer your question, please.


Hans1906
Still Thank you! I am researching why so many people like watching executions. This book is worth reading, Severed: A History of Heads Lost and Heads Found by Frances Larson.
Last edited by Andy.X.WorldWar2 on 12 Feb 2021 23:27, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
fredric
Member
Posts: 950
Joined: 03 Dec 2004 04:19
Location: USA Princeton

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by fredric » 12 Feb 2021 22:14

Andy,
Public executions were carried out in many European countries. Executions were considered to be a learning experience. Executions
also became public entertainment, drawing even thousands who enjoyed the spectacle. It was a practice that slowing was phased out.
Why? Public executions became public entertainment. Crowds were often rowdy and violent. People came because it was violent entertainment... such fun!!!

France stopped public executions after the guillotining of Eugene Weidemann in Versailles in 1939.
Germany began phasing out public executions.

By 1936 Germany had standardized on one execution method, mechanical beheading on the fallbeil. While public executions had ended the tradition of having selected witnesses
(12 citizens in good standing) at executions continued. The procedure of witnesses either being picked by the Court or by application. continued. The witnesses had to obtain and present "Admission Cards" to watch the execution. This practice did continue through the Nazi era.

User avatar
Hans1906
Member
Posts: 1547
Joined: 06 Jan 2020 23:13
Location: Germany

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Hans1906 » 12 Feb 2021 22:58

"Public executions were carried out in many European countries. Executions were considered to be a learning experience. Executions
also became public entertainment, drawing even thousands who enjoyed the spectacle. It was a practice that slowing was phased out.
Why? Public executions became public entertainment. Crowds were often rowdy and violent. People came because it was violent entertainment... such fun!!!
"

What a sick and general nonsense, something like this fits in a daily newspaper for idiots, but not in this topic.
Where are your sources, and spare us this half-knowledge from bad movies, and even worse articles from questionable magazines and newspapers.

What about your sources ?


Hans1906

Andy.X.WorldWar2
Member
Posts: 32
Joined: 09 Feb 2021 19:02
Location: Anonymous

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Andy.X.WorldWar2 » 12 Feb 2021 23:17

fredric wrote:
12 Feb 2021 22:14
Andy,
Public executions were carried out in many European countries. Executions were considered to be a learning experience. Executions
also became public entertainment, drawing even thousands who enjoyed the spectacle. It was a practice that slowing was phased out.
Why? Public executions became public entertainment. Crowds were often rowdy and violent. People came because it was violent entertainment... such fun!!!

France stopped public executions after the guillotining of Eugene Weidemann in Versailles in 1939.
Germany began phasing out public executions.

By 1936 Germany had standardized on one execution method, mechanical beheading on the fallbeil. While public executions had ended the tradition of having selected witnesses
(12 citizens in good standing) at executions continued. The procedure of witnesses either being picked by the Court or by application. continued. The witnesses had to obtain and present "Admission Cards" to watch the execution. This practice did continue through the Nazi era.
I am researching the "public entertainment" of attending execution in France and China. I am not sure if the German people had the same interest as the French people who regarded the guillotine execution days as festivals.

Andy.X.WorldWar2
Member
Posts: 32
Joined: 09 Feb 2021 19:02
Location: Anonymous

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Andy.X.WorldWar2 » 12 Feb 2021 23:22

fredric wrote:
12 Feb 2021 22:14
Andy,
Public executions were carried out in many European countries. Executions were considered to be a learning experience. Executions
also became public entertainment, drawing even thousands who enjoyed the spectacle. It was a practice that slowing was phased out.
Why? Public executions became public entertainment. Crowds were often rowdy and violent. People came because it was violent entertainment... such fun!!!

France stopped public executions after the guillotining of Eugene Weidemann in Versailles in 1939.
Germany began phasing out public executions.

By 1936 Germany had standardized on one execution method, mechanical beheading on the fallbeil. While public executions had ended the tradition of having selected witnesses
(12 citizens in good standing) at executions continued. The procedure of witnesses either being picked by the Court or by application. continued. The witnesses had to obtain and present "Admission Cards" to watch the execution. This practice did continue through the Nazi era.
Fredric,
Have you read the books of Foucault, such as Discipline and Punish: The Birth of the Prison?

Andy.X.WorldWar2
Member
Posts: 32
Joined: 09 Feb 2021 19:02
Location: Anonymous

Re: The youngest person beheaded by fallbeil

Post by Andy.X.WorldWar2 » 12 Feb 2021 23:48

Pete26 wrote:
20 Oct 2013 13:45
Piotr1 wrote:... probably the youngest person during the Nazi regieme to be beheaded...

Walerian Wrobel ( 2 nd april 1925 +24 August 1942 ) was a little younger
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walerian_Wr%C3%B3bel
I found a reference to a 15 year old Frenchman Henri Deist who was guillotined in Brandenburg Görden prison. As mentioned before, the minimum execution age in the Third Reich was lowered to just 14 years old. Sometimes, children younger than 14 were executed. I found an article on an 11 year old boy who was executed together with his parents by shooting at Kounicovy College in Brno, Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.

http://www.dpjw.org/gedenkstaetten/de/i ... 254&id=239
Das jüngste Opfer war der Franzose Henri Delst, der im Alter von 15 Jahren unter dem Fallbeil starb.
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... S:official
The youngest victim was Frenchman Henri Delst, who died at the age of 15 years under the guillotine
Note: During the French revolution the youngest victim beheaded was 14, the oldest 92 (based on those for which the records exist).
I have read some documents saying that the guillotine was not suitable for executing children because their necks were too small for the lunette. One of the youngest guillotine victims during the French revolution died horribly- the guillotine failed to cut off the whole head of the 13 year old boy, while only half of the skull.
By the way, France should abolish death sentence of people under 18 soon after the revolution, and I have found no record of minors guillotined in the post-revolution period.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Th ... Carrier%20
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ar ... 3%20ans%20
The four boys 13 or 14 year old guillotined in Nantes at the present of Jean-Baptitste Carrier were Julien Peigné, René Charon, René Bertaud and Louis Guillocheau. Because that child's death shocked the executioner, Jean-Baptiste Carrier decided not to guillotine children anymore, but used shooting and drowning.
Pete, as you said the Nazi executed a 11-year-old boy by shooting, I guess that the fallbeil may have a problem similar to what the guillotine has- the lunette cannot suit a person of small body size. (Executing a child is always brutal and inhumane in my opinion, so here I use "a person of small body size" as a euphemism.)
Last edited by Andy.X.WorldWar2 on 13 Feb 2021 12:47, edited 19 times in total.

User avatar
fredric
Member
Posts: 950
Joined: 03 Dec 2004 04:19
Location: USA Princeton

Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by fredric » 12 Feb 2021 23:56

I have not read these books, Andy. I know of Foucault but would not quote him.
Up to cessation of public executions in France, the public knew only by "word of mouth", no postings in papers or kiosks.
China... well, so many beheadings on "killing grounds"... I understand these drew observers.
My focus is Germany. Public fallbeil beheadings were phased out and by the late 1930's were held behind prison gates.

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”