Beheadings in the Third Reich

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Andy.X.WorldWar2
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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Andy.X.WorldWar2 » 13 Feb 2021 00:11

fredric wrote:
12 Feb 2021 23:56
I have not read these books, Andy. I know of Foucault but would not quote him.
Up to cessation of public executions in France, the public knew only by "word of mouth", no postings in papers or kiosks.
China... well, so many beheadings on "killing grounds"... I understand these drew observers.
My focus is Germany. Public fallbeil beheadings were phased out and by the late 1930's were held behind prison gates.
Is it allowed at this topic to discuss the beheadings in China during the 1920s? If allowed, I will remain apolitical, and will not tell anyone whether I am pro-KMT or pro-CPC of that time.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by fredric » 13 Feb 2021 02:30

Our subject is "Beheadings in the Third Reich". Any variance should be reviewed with David Thompson, our site monitor.
I know a little about beheadings in China and we have much photo-documentation. However to me, this subject doesn't fit
our topic.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Andy.X.WorldWar2 » 13 Feb 2021 03:17

fredric wrote:
13 Feb 2021 02:30
Our subject is "Beheadings in the Third Reich". Any variance should be reviewed with David Thompson, our site monitor.
I know a little about beheadings in China and we have much photo-documentation. However to me, this subject doesn't fit
our topic.
Of course I must obey the forum rules. If the monitor deletes my posts, I will not be angry. Just let me try once; it won't go too far away from the main topic.
I think we could not only discuss the data and background of beheadings in the Third Reich, but also what to learn from them.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Max » 13 Feb 2021 08:41

No need to contact David Thompson, he has already made the limits of this topic clear.
David Thompson wrote:
19 Feb 2019 16:34
Pete26 -- The topic of this thread is "Beheadings in the Third Reich;" not beheadings generally. Please stay on topic when posting and responding to posts.
Greetings from the Wide Brown.

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Hermine Braunsteiner Ryan hanged a 14-year-old girl

Post by Andy.X.WorldWar2 » 13 Feb 2021 11:39

According to the website "http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org", "There is eyewitness testimony of how a female guard named Braunsteiner ordered a 14 year old girl to be hanged in one concentration camp. An SS man was told to get a stool so the girl could step up into the noose dangling from a simple crossbeam gallows. She had the man ask the girl in her own language if she understood that she was going to be hanged. The girl said she understood it but didn't cry or scream. Moments later the stool was removed leaving her hanging." Source:http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/nazi.html
I have done the fact-check at Google books. Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=Lt7fA ... rl&f=false
According to the English version Wikipedia,
Hermine Braunsteiner Ryan (July 16, 1919 – April 19, 1999) was a German SS Helferin and female camp guard at Ravensbrück and Majdanek concentration camps, and the first Nazi war criminal to be extradited from the United States, to face trial in the then West Germany. Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermine_Braunsteiner

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by fredric » 13 Feb 2021 20:43

Does your submission fit the Forum Topic "Beheadings in the Third Reich"?

Suggest you see if the Forum has a Concentration Camp topic where this horrifying story might fit.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by stvn » 13 Feb 2021 20:57

fredric wrote:
12 Feb 2021 22:14
By 1936 Germany had standardized on one execution method, mechanical beheading on the fallbeil. While public executions had ended the tradition of having selected witnesses
(12 citizens in good standing) at executions continued. The procedure of witnesses either being picked by the Court or by application. continued. The witnesses had to obtain and present "Admission Cards" to watch the execution. This practice did continue through the Nazi era.
Hello Frederic,

I'm interested in these so called "admission cards" that selected witnesses had to obtain prior to attending executions. I wasn't expecting to hear about these, and was unaware of their existence.

Would you be able to provide me with a photo or a description of what they would have looked like?

I'm curious if they were simple plain tickets or more... Let's say "officialized"- styled similar to an execution notice (Bekanntmachung) with the name of the condemned printed in a bold, erie font.

Another question you could perhaps answer:

It is clear to me that prison guards witnessed and took part in executions. I'm wondering if this was exclusive to a certain rank(s) of guard, or if there was a certain rank who was always there, for example: a sergeant?

Also- I am newly registered here though I have been reading this topic for years now. Big extension of thanks to everyone- especially you- who has shared their research and personal discoveries.


Stvn

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Andy.X.WorldWar2 » 13 Feb 2021 22:09

fredric wrote:
13 Feb 2021 20:43
Does your submission fit the Forum Topic "Beheadings in the Third Reich"?

Suggest you see if the Forum has a Concentration Camp topic where this horrifying story might fit.
It does seem to be a little off the mainstream but there are many discussions about hanging in the Third Reich that can be found through "search this topic".
Last edited by Andy.X.WorldWar2 on 13 Feb 2021 22:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Beheadings in the Third Reich

Post by Andy.X.WorldWar2 » 13 Feb 2021 22:17

stvn wrote:
13 Feb 2021 20:57
fredric wrote:
12 Feb 2021 22:14
By 1936 Germany had standardized on one execution method, mechanical beheading on the fallbeil. While public executions had ended the tradition of having selected witnesses
(12 citizens in good standing) at executions continued. The procedure of witnesses either being picked by the Court or by application. continued. The witnesses had to obtain and present "Admission Cards" to watch the execution. This practice did continue through the Nazi era.
Hello Frederic,

I'm interested in these so called "admission cards" that selected witnesses had to obtain prior to attending executions. I wasn't expecting to hear about these, and was unaware of their existence.

Would you be able to provide me with a photo or a description of what they would have looked like?

I'm curious if they were simple plain tickets or more... Let's say "officialized"- styled similar to an execution notice (Bekanntmachung) with the name of the condemned printed in a bold, erie font.

Another question you could perhaps answer:

It is clear to me that prison guards witnessed and took part in executions. I'm wondering if this was exclusive to a certain rank(s) of guard, or if there was a certain rank who was always there, for example: a sergeant?

Also- I am newly registered here though I have been reading this topic for years now. Big extension of thanks to everyone- especially you- who has shared their research and personal discoveries.


Stvn
In a totalitarian dictatorship, there would not be fairness I think. I mean, I guess that the "admission cards", if did exsist, were not opened for citizens in the Third Reich fairly.

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Re: Brandenburg-Görden execution book

Post by Andy.X.WorldWar2 » 13 Feb 2021 23:45

Pete26 wrote:
15 Sep 2019 09:09
Brandenburg Gorden execution book .jpg

Two pages from Brandenburg-Görden prison execution book. Note that on 26 June 1944, 26 people were executed.

Between 1 August 1940 and 20 April 1945, 2032 people were executed in Brandenburg-Görden prison.

https://www.brandenburg-zuchthaus-sbg.d ... g-goerden/


Image

Garage building in 1937 which was converted to the execution site.

https://www.brandenburg-zuchthaus-sbg.d ... Nr_222.jpg

Image

Aerial view of Brandenburg-Görden prison in 1929

https://www.brandenburg-zuchthaus-sbg.d ... ftbild.jpg

Image

The entrance to the prison in 1937

https://www.brandenburg-zuchthaus-sbg.d ... rB1937.jpg

Image

Prison cell for four inmates, 1931

https://www.brandenburg-zuchthaus-sbg.d ... zelle1.jpg
Dear Pete,
Is it possible that there were a large number of people guillotined or executed in other manners completely secretly in the prisons and camps during 1936-1945 in the Nazi regime? You listed a lot of names listed in the documents. But I am afraid that there were many who perished even without being documented.

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Re: Brandenburg-Görden execution book

Post by stvn » 14 Feb 2021 02:06

Andy.X.WorldWar2 wrote:
13 Feb 2021 23:45
Pete26 wrote:
15 Sep 2019 09:09
Brandenburg Gorden execution book .jpg

Two pages from Brandenburg-Görden prison execution book. Note that on 26 June 1944, 26 people were executed.

Between 1 August 1940 and 20 April 1945, 2032 people were executed in Brandenburg-Görden prison.

https://www.brandenburg-zuchthaus-sbg.d ... g-goerden/


Image

Garage building in 1937 which was converted to the execution site.

https://www.brandenburg-zuchthaus-sbg.d ... Nr_222.jpg

Image

Aerial view of Brandenburg-Görden prison in 1929

https://www.brandenburg-zuchthaus-sbg.d ... ftbild.jpg

Image

The entrance to the prison in 1937

https://www.brandenburg-zuchthaus-sbg.d ... rB1937.jpg

Image

Prison cell for four inmates, 1931

https://www.brandenburg-zuchthaus-sbg.d ... zelle1.jpg
Dear Pete,
Is it possible that there were a large number of people guillotined or executed in other manners completely secretly in the prisons and camps during 1936-1945 in the Nazi regime? You listed a lot of names listed in the documents. But I am afraid that there were many who perished even without being documented.
Perhaps I can weigh in here

I doubt that there were any beheadings in concentration camps. At least there are no documented cases that I am aware of.

There was a fallbeil at Pankrac prison in Prague. The Pankrac Prison was operated by the Gestapo, and it is very likely that the Gestapo brought people in secret to be executed by the fallbeil.

This is seldom talked about due to lack of sources but allow me to mention this possibility: The gestapo may have used the fallbeil as an interrogation tool also. I can't imagine something more effective at extracting confessions/information. Keep in mind, I cannot confirm this and it is not documented as far as I know. It just seems like something they could've done and probably would've done given their forté for brutality. I have suspicions is all.


Stvn

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Re: Brandenburg-Görden execution book

Post by Pete26 » 14 Feb 2021 05:01

Andy.X.WorldWar2 wrote:
13 Feb 2021 23:45

Dear Pete,
Is it possible that there were a large number of people guillotined or executed in other manners completely secretly in the prisons and camps during 1936-1945 in the Nazi regime? You listed a lot of names listed in the documents. But I am afraid that there were many who perished even without being documented.
People who were guillotined in various execution sites of the Third Reich and whose names were recorded, were formally sentenced to death by the Nazi judicial system. As corrupt as this judicial system was, it was a process and it was properly documented. However, there were a large number of people who were murdered in the Third Reich outside of the Nazi judicial process. These were obviously people who were deported to the concentration camps and starved to death or killed upon arrival. In addition to these individuals there were others who were executed in various execution sites without ever having been tried or sentenced by the Reich courts. For example, Pankrac prison execution room had a hanging beam with hooks mounted on trolleys that could be moved along the beam once a person was hanging form each hook. This way about 8 people at a time could be hanged and each person moved out of the way along the beam once hanged. There are no records of people who were executed on this hanging beam between April 1943 and April 1945. According to several sources i read, most of the people hanged there were Jews who were hanged there by members of SS on days when the guillotine was not used. And most of these people were never formally sentenced to death by German courts. We do not know if any records of these executions were kept and were subsequently destroyed or were never kept.

I personally believe that there were people outside of judicial process who were murdered at various execution sites either by guillotine or by hanging and no records of their executions were kept or were destroyed.

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Re: Brandenburg-Görden execution book

Post by Andy.X.WorldWar2 » 14 Feb 2021 05:32

Pete26 wrote:
14 Feb 2021 05:01
Andy.X.WorldWar2 wrote:
13 Feb 2021 23:45

Dear Pete,
Is it possible that there were a large number of people guillotined or executed in other manners completely secretly in the prisons and camps during 1936-1945 in the Nazi regime? You listed a lot of names listed in the documents. But I am afraid that there were many who perished even without being documented.
People who were guillotined in various execution sites of the Third Reich and whose names were recorded, were formally sentenced to death by the Nazi judicial system. As corrupt as this judicial system was, it was a process and it was properly documented. However, there were a large number of people who were murdered in the Third Reich outside of the Nazi judicial process. These were obviously people who were deported to the concentration camps and starved to death or killed upon arrival. In addition to these individuals there were others who were executed in various execution sites without ever having been tried or sentenced by the Reich courts. For example, Pankrac prison execution room had a hanging beam with hooks mounted on trolleys that could be moved along the beam once a person was hanging form each hook. This way about 8 people at a time could be hanged and each person moved out of the way along the beam once hanged. There are no records of people who were executed on this hanging beam between April 1943 and April 1945. According to several sources i read, most of the people hanged there were Jews who were hanged there by members of SS on days when the guillotine was not used. And most of these people were never formally sentenced to death by German courts. We do not know if any records of these executions were kept and were subsequently destroyed or were never kept.

I personally believe that there were people outside of judicial process who were murdered at various execution sites either by guillotine or by hanging and no records of their executions were kept or were destroyed.
Nice to see you back Pete! Perhaps you are the one with the most posts in this topic.
Were there only fallbeil, hangging and shooting rooms in the normal prisons? Was gas only used against Jews?
I mean, as gas seems to do a quick job in use of executing a group of individuals at the same time, it might be practiced in secret executions.
Last edited by Andy.X.WorldWar2 on 14 Feb 2021 12:00, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Brandenburg-Görden execution book

Post by Andy.X.WorldWar2 » 14 Feb 2021 05:36

Pete26 wrote:
14 Feb 2021 05:01
Andy.X.WorldWar2 wrote:
13 Feb 2021 23:45

Dear Pete,
Is it possible that there were a large number of people guillotined or executed in other manners completely secretly in the prisons and camps during 1936-1945 in the Nazi regime? You listed a lot of names listed in the documents. But I am afraid that there were many who perished even without being documented.
People who were guillotined in various execution sites of the Third Reich and whose names were recorded, were formally sentenced to death by the Nazi judicial system. As corrupt as this judicial system was, it was a process and it was properly documented. However, there were a large number of people who were murdered in the Third Reich outside of the Nazi judicial process. These were obviously people who were deported to the concentration camps and starved to death or killed upon arrival. In addition to these individuals there were others who were executed in various execution sites without ever having been tried or sentenced by the Reich courts. For example, Pankrac prison execution room had a hanging beam with hooks mounted on trolleys that could be moved along the beam once a person was hanging form each hook. This way about 8 people at a time could be hanged and each person moved out of the way along the beam once hanged. There are no records of people who were executed on this hanging beam between April 1943 and April 1945. According to several sources i read, most of the people hanged there were Jews who were hanged there by members of SS on days when the guillotine was not used. And most of these people were never formally sentenced to death by German courts. We do not know if any records of these executions were kept and were subsequently destroyed or were never kept.

I personally believe that there were people outside of judicial process who were murdered at various execution sites either by guillotine or by hanging and no records of their executions were kept or were destroyed.
The secret executions may not result from how corrupt this judicial system was, but from the totalitarian dictatorship system itself. Any tyrant wants to hide something.

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Re: List of victims in group 40 of Vienna Central Cemetery

Post by Andy.X.WorldWar2 » 14 Feb 2021 12:30

Pete26 wrote:
13 Sep 2014 04:34
http://www.friedhoefewien.at/media/file ... 120586.pdf

Most of these people were beheaded by guillotine at Vienna Regional Court.

This photo shows the actual burial of these victims. Looks like they were placed in some kind of body bag, or wrapped in a blanket and placed in a wooden tray. It looks like no coffins were provided. Several bodies were stacked on top of each other and covered up with dirt.

Image


http://www.viennatouristguide.at/Friedh ... engrab.jpg
What a terrible image. I see a person with half a neck. Did the executioner's assist have to take photographs of the corpse right after each execution to confirm that the condemned was really dead?

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