This page (in Finnish) tells about Nikolai Djakov, who was captured in 1941. When he was released in October 1944, he had a speech for comrades that had died under capticity. There is a scan of the speech, so I would be grateful if you could give a brief translation of it: http://www.yle.fi/dokumentti/ryssa/djakov_1.htm (click "seuraava sivu" at the bottom to go to the next page).
Overall about 30% of the Soviet POW's died during captivity in Finland, mostly during 1941-1942. After that, the poor conditions of the pow camps improved, when Mannerheim took command over the organisation, and had the Red Cross come in and help.
Finland and "Final Solution" in WWII?
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Hurricane
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- Joined: 23 Jul 2003 12:39
- Location: Finland
Re: Some Q-s fir Harri
According to this site (http://www.veteraanienperinto.fi/suomi/ ... vangit.htm), the POW's official food ration was the same as for the civilian population. However, the civilian population was able to increase their food shares by trading/exhcanging, growing some own etc etc, while the POW's of course didn't have this opportunity at all.Aleksei22 wrote:
2. - Can you present POW's daily food ration and compare it with typical civilian (finnish) ones?
According to the same source, 1400 prisoners (of 44,000), who didn't want to return to Soviet, escaped.Aleksei22 wrote:
1. - How many? Do you know nationality of this relieved POWs whom preferred to stay back in Finland? What was the main reason to stay-back?
Around 1000 POW's were shot because of mutinous behaviour or escaping.
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Hurricane
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- Joined: 23 Jul 2003 12:39
- Location: Finland
I found another page (http://www.lehtimaki.fi/opy/joulu00.html#svangit, again in Finnish).
This page also reminds that Finland was unprepared for the big amount of prisoners. Most of the 64,000 were taken during the first stage of the war, in the autumn of 1941. The winter 41-42 was harsh, and because of Germany's occupation of Denmark and Norway, large parts of Finland's so important sea traffic to the west was cut off. Only thanks to the previous favourable summers didn't Finland face starvation during the winter. Most of the POW's that died, died during this winter. The main death reason seems to have been diarrhea.
Since Finland had an acute shortage of labour, POW's were sent to work all over the country. First only in big, guarded, units (for example, the city of Oulu had 400 pow's, and Lohja chalk factory 150), but soon individual pow's were also sent to farms. These pow's lived often just like any other family member on the farm.
This page also reminds that Finland was unprepared for the big amount of prisoners. Most of the 64,000 were taken during the first stage of the war, in the autumn of 1941. The winter 41-42 was harsh, and because of Germany's occupation of Denmark and Norway, large parts of Finland's so important sea traffic to the west was cut off. Only thanks to the previous favourable summers didn't Finland face starvation during the winter. Most of the POW's that died, died during this winter. The main death reason seems to have been diarrhea.
Since Finland had an acute shortage of labour, POW's were sent to work all over the country. First only in big, guarded, units (for example, the city of Oulu had 400 pow's, and Lohja chalk factory 150), but soon individual pow's were also sent to farms. These pow's lived often just like any other family member on the farm.
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JariL
- Member
- Posts: 425
- Joined: 15 Mar 2002 08:45
- Location: Finland
Hi Aleksei,
Some answers. Someone will probably give exact figures later on to some of your questions.
1. - How many? What a quantity you mean while say "large portions" ?
Majority of the prisoners were released late 1918 or early 1919. The decision was influnced very strongly by US and British governments who supplied grain to Finland only on the condition that the situation in the country will be brought back to normal as soon as possible. It is also noteworthy that free elections were held in 1919 and that the social democratic party (loosers in the civil war) still was the biggest party after the elections. From the prisoners only those who were suspected of high treason (=leading or instigating a mutiny) were kept in prison and eventually sentenced to death. However, after november 1918 death penalties were converted to life in prison. These people numbered a couple of thousand if I remember correctly. Almost all were pardonned by the first president of the republic K.J. Ståhlberg (liberal party) during his term in office in the beginning of 1920's. Basically only those who had been sentenced for murder had to serve full term. Ståhlberg was attacked vigorously by the right wing parties for his policy but he kept his head.
________________________________________________
Death-rates were also very high because of severe famine and the so called "Spanish desease" (epidemic Influenza).
___________________________________________________
1. - What was the main reason(s) for this severe famine ? Does it was organized ? Or was it a result of sabotage ?
Finland was only 70 % self sufficient with regards to grain in 1917 and 1918. When Russia collapsed the grain supply was reduced. Lack of food was one of the most powerfull triggers of the Civil War.
2. - Who was the MAIN FOOD-SUPPLIER for Finland before 1917 ?
Russia. Finland traded goods for food as long as she was part of Russian empire. Grain could not be bought from the west because right after the Civil War Finland was in the wrong camp due to the German intervention in the war.
3. - Who was the MAIN FOOD-SUPPLIER for Finland just after 1944 ?
The biggest external supplier was Sweden in 1944. Soviet Union also supplied some food. For example sugar and candies were traded for torpedoes etc. The major difference between 1917 and 1944 was that already in 1945 Finland could produce most of the food needed by herself. In 1917 Finland was only 70 % selfsufficient.
__________________________________________________
I think this Influenza was one the main reasons for a rather quick closing of the remaining POW camps.
___________________________________________________
1. - Does it possible to see OFFICIAL DATA (statistics) for toll death rate native finnish population and POWs due to Influenza and some other Disease.
Russian soldiers that were captured fighting on the red side usually did not make it to a camp but were shot long before that. Those who were captured when the Russian garrisons were occupied in January 1918 were eventually returned to Russia but probably suffered from the food sistuation just like any other prisoners. I am not aware of any statistics on the subject.
2. - Can you present POW's daily food ration and compare it with typical civilian (finnish) ones?
The official rations are not very meaningfull because they most likely existed only on paper. Even the food that was supplied was often of inferior quality and sometimes could kill more people that it kept alive.
1. - Hmmm …. What do you mean when you say "Russification".
Russification means the change in the policy of Imperial Russian government that aimed to reduce and finally abolish the autonomous status of Finland. The "action" started in about 1890 and continued until the end of the Russian rule in Finland. The process had it's ups and downs. The first strong wave of russification was between 1899 and 1904 when Nikolai Bobrikov acted as the general gouvernor of Finland. He was murdered by Eugene Schauman (political murder is very rare event in Finnish history) in 1904. In 1905 after the general strike in Russia (and Finland) Finnish diet was reformed to one of the most modern parliamentary systems back then with universal voting right that included both sexes. But when the situation had been stabilized, russification measures started again. In the Russian duma the liberal oppositions slogan was "make Russia like Finland, not Finland like Russia". With this they meant that Finland was 20 to 50 years ahead of Russia in almost all respects and they wanted Russian governmet to copy the "best practises" from Finland instead of suppressing them. However, also the Russian liberals saw Finland as an integral part of the empire.
2. - an you give some practical examples for this "Russification" ????
Russian language was made an official language in the country and an obligatory subject at schools. Postal services were harmonized with the Russian post, ruble was to replace Finnish markka, legislation was to be harmonized with the Russian legislation, police was to be made part of the Russian police, Finnish regiments were disbanned etc.
3. - How "pro-long" was this "Russification period" ?
See above.
___________________________________
The sentence was usually "high treason".
____________________________________
1. - What does it mean in reality ? Death sentence ? Slavery for life ?
2. - Who (nationality) were sentenced for this conduct ?
Answer was partly given above. In plain terms high treason meant mutiny against the legal government and the sentence was death. However, as explained above, death penalties were not put into effect after about november 1918 but they were converted to "life in prison" which basically meant 12 years imprisonment without the posibility for parole. But the president of the republic had the right to pardon and Ståhlberg excercised this right into the limit.
Ståhlbergs stand is best explained by him being a professor of law. His slogan was "the land must be governed by law" and his money was where his mouth was. He was the key character in drafting the Finnish constitution. Given the hard lesson of the civil war he balanced the powers of the president, government and parliament in such a way that co-operation between different political groupings was the only way to make things work. This meant that even if you despised the idea, you had to sit down to negotiating table with your political opponents if you wanted to get something done. It was a sort of a co-operate or weep and co-operate policy. We can thank Ståhlberg and other politicians like him for the relatively rapid internal recovery from the civil war. Wounds were deep and took a long time to heel but at least the heeling process was started early.
Only Finns could be prosecuted with high treason.
Regards,
Jari
Some answers. Someone will probably give exact figures later on to some of your questions.
1. - How many? What a quantity you mean while say "large portions" ?
Majority of the prisoners were released late 1918 or early 1919. The decision was influnced very strongly by US and British governments who supplied grain to Finland only on the condition that the situation in the country will be brought back to normal as soon as possible. It is also noteworthy that free elections were held in 1919 and that the social democratic party (loosers in the civil war) still was the biggest party after the elections. From the prisoners only those who were suspected of high treason (=leading or instigating a mutiny) were kept in prison and eventually sentenced to death. However, after november 1918 death penalties were converted to life in prison. These people numbered a couple of thousand if I remember correctly. Almost all were pardonned by the first president of the republic K.J. Ståhlberg (liberal party) during his term in office in the beginning of 1920's. Basically only those who had been sentenced for murder had to serve full term. Ståhlberg was attacked vigorously by the right wing parties for his policy but he kept his head.
________________________________________________
Death-rates were also very high because of severe famine and the so called "Spanish desease" (epidemic Influenza).
___________________________________________________
1. - What was the main reason(s) for this severe famine ? Does it was organized ? Or was it a result of sabotage ?
Finland was only 70 % self sufficient with regards to grain in 1917 and 1918. When Russia collapsed the grain supply was reduced. Lack of food was one of the most powerfull triggers of the Civil War.
2. - Who was the MAIN FOOD-SUPPLIER for Finland before 1917 ?
Russia. Finland traded goods for food as long as she was part of Russian empire. Grain could not be bought from the west because right after the Civil War Finland was in the wrong camp due to the German intervention in the war.
3. - Who was the MAIN FOOD-SUPPLIER for Finland just after 1944 ?
The biggest external supplier was Sweden in 1944. Soviet Union also supplied some food. For example sugar and candies were traded for torpedoes etc. The major difference between 1917 and 1944 was that already in 1945 Finland could produce most of the food needed by herself. In 1917 Finland was only 70 % selfsufficient.
__________________________________________________
I think this Influenza was one the main reasons for a rather quick closing of the remaining POW camps.
___________________________________________________
1. - Does it possible to see OFFICIAL DATA (statistics) for toll death rate native finnish population and POWs due to Influenza and some other Disease.
Russian soldiers that were captured fighting on the red side usually did not make it to a camp but were shot long before that. Those who were captured when the Russian garrisons were occupied in January 1918 were eventually returned to Russia but probably suffered from the food sistuation just like any other prisoners. I am not aware of any statistics on the subject.
2. - Can you present POW's daily food ration and compare it with typical civilian (finnish) ones?
The official rations are not very meaningfull because they most likely existed only on paper. Even the food that was supplied was often of inferior quality and sometimes could kill more people that it kept alive.
1. - Hmmm …. What do you mean when you say "Russification".
Russification means the change in the policy of Imperial Russian government that aimed to reduce and finally abolish the autonomous status of Finland. The "action" started in about 1890 and continued until the end of the Russian rule in Finland. The process had it's ups and downs. The first strong wave of russification was between 1899 and 1904 when Nikolai Bobrikov acted as the general gouvernor of Finland. He was murdered by Eugene Schauman (political murder is very rare event in Finnish history) in 1904. In 1905 after the general strike in Russia (and Finland) Finnish diet was reformed to one of the most modern parliamentary systems back then with universal voting right that included both sexes. But when the situation had been stabilized, russification measures started again. In the Russian duma the liberal oppositions slogan was "make Russia like Finland, not Finland like Russia". With this they meant that Finland was 20 to 50 years ahead of Russia in almost all respects and they wanted Russian governmet to copy the "best practises" from Finland instead of suppressing them. However, also the Russian liberals saw Finland as an integral part of the empire.
2. - an you give some practical examples for this "Russification" ????
Russian language was made an official language in the country and an obligatory subject at schools. Postal services were harmonized with the Russian post, ruble was to replace Finnish markka, legislation was to be harmonized with the Russian legislation, police was to be made part of the Russian police, Finnish regiments were disbanned etc.
3. - How "pro-long" was this "Russification period" ?
See above.
___________________________________
The sentence was usually "high treason".
____________________________________
1. - What does it mean in reality ? Death sentence ? Slavery for life ?
2. - Who (nationality) were sentenced for this conduct ?
Answer was partly given above. In plain terms high treason meant mutiny against the legal government and the sentence was death. However, as explained above, death penalties were not put into effect after about november 1918 but they were converted to "life in prison" which basically meant 12 years imprisonment without the posibility for parole. But the president of the republic had the right to pardon and Ståhlberg excercised this right into the limit.
Ståhlbergs stand is best explained by him being a professor of law. His slogan was "the land must be governed by law" and his money was where his mouth was. He was the key character in drafting the Finnish constitution. Given the hard lesson of the civil war he balanced the powers of the president, government and parliament in such a way that co-operation between different political groupings was the only way to make things work. This meant that even if you despised the idea, you had to sit down to negotiating table with your political opponents if you wanted to get something done. It was a sort of a co-operate or weep and co-operate policy. We can thank Ståhlberg and other politicians like him for the relatively rapid internal recovery from the civil war. Wounds were deep and took a long time to heel but at least the heeling process was started early.
Only Finns could be prosecuted with high treason.
Regards,
Jari
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Sotka
- Member
- Posts: 507
- Joined: 24 May 2003 16:48
- Location: Turku (Турку), Finland
"WIESENTHAL CENTER CALLS FOR FULL INVESTIGATION OF FINNISH DEPORTATIONS TO NAZI GERMANY AND PUNISHMENT OF THOSE RESPONSIBLE"
Whole story at:
http://www.wiesenthal.com/social/press/ ... temID=8523
This was also on news in TV today
Whole story at:
http://www.wiesenthal.com/social/press/ ... temID=8523
This was also on news in TV today
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Aleksei22
- Banned
- Posts: 252
- Joined: 04 Oct 2003 20:49
- Location: Russia
Hello, Jari
___________________________________________
1. - Hmmm …. What do you mean when you say "Russification".
Russification means the change in the policy of Imperial Russian government that aimed to reduce and finally abolish the autonomous status of Finland. The "action" started in about 1890 and continued until the end of the Russian rule in Finland. The process had it's ups and downs. The first strong wave of russification was between 1899 and 1904 when Nikolai Bobrikov acted as the general gouvernor of Finland. He was murdered by Eugene Schauman (political murder is very rare event in Finnish history) in 1904. In 1905 after the general strike in Russia (and Finland) Finnish diet was reformed to one of the most modern parliamentary systems back then with universal voting right that included both sexes. But when the situation had been stabilized, russification measures started again. In the Russian duma the liberal oppositions slogan was "make Russia like Finland, not Finland like Russia". With this they meant that Finland was 20 to 50 years ahead of Russia in almost all respects and they wanted Russian governmet to copy the "best practises" from Finland instead of suppressing them. However, also the Russian liberals saw Finland as an integral part of the empire.
_____________________________________________
Can you give your point of view on subject - WHY THIS PRACTICE of " .... reducing and finally abolishing the autonomous status of Finland" was initiated ? What was (/were) the main reason(s) ?
_________________________________________________
2. - an you give some practical examples for this "Russification" ????
Russian language was made an official language in the country and an obligatory subject at schools.
_________________________________________________
Was it wrong ? Why ?
__________________________________________
Postal services were harmonized with the Russian post, ruble was to replace Finnish markka, legislation was to be harmonized with the Russian legislation,
________________________________________________
Was all this wrong ? Why ?
_____________________________________
police was to be made part of the Russian police, Finnish regiments were disbanned etc.
___________________________________________
Was it wrong ? Why ? Why previosly Finnish police and Finnish regiments were disbanned ?
__________________________________
But when the situation had been stabilized, russification measures started again.
_____________________________________
What do you mean when you say "stabilized". Is it possible to mark this "stable time-table period" ?
And again
__________________________________
Russian language was made an official language in the country and an obligatory subject at schools.
______________________________________
Did you mean that native Finnish language was TOTALLY BANNED ?
Thank you.
___________________________________________
1. - Hmmm …. What do you mean when you say "Russification".
Russification means the change in the policy of Imperial Russian government that aimed to reduce and finally abolish the autonomous status of Finland. The "action" started in about 1890 and continued until the end of the Russian rule in Finland. The process had it's ups and downs. The first strong wave of russification was between 1899 and 1904 when Nikolai Bobrikov acted as the general gouvernor of Finland. He was murdered by Eugene Schauman (political murder is very rare event in Finnish history) in 1904. In 1905 after the general strike in Russia (and Finland) Finnish diet was reformed to one of the most modern parliamentary systems back then with universal voting right that included both sexes. But when the situation had been stabilized, russification measures started again. In the Russian duma the liberal oppositions slogan was "make Russia like Finland, not Finland like Russia". With this they meant that Finland was 20 to 50 years ahead of Russia in almost all respects and they wanted Russian governmet to copy the "best practises" from Finland instead of suppressing them. However, also the Russian liberals saw Finland as an integral part of the empire.
_____________________________________________
Can you give your point of view on subject - WHY THIS PRACTICE of " .... reducing and finally abolishing the autonomous status of Finland" was initiated ? What was (/were) the main reason(s) ?
_________________________________________________
2. - an you give some practical examples for this "Russification" ????
Russian language was made an official language in the country and an obligatory subject at schools.
_________________________________________________
Was it wrong ? Why ?
__________________________________________
Postal services were harmonized with the Russian post, ruble was to replace Finnish markka, legislation was to be harmonized with the Russian legislation,
________________________________________________
Was all this wrong ? Why ?
_____________________________________
police was to be made part of the Russian police, Finnish regiments were disbanned etc.
___________________________________________
Was it wrong ? Why ? Why previosly Finnish police and Finnish regiments were disbanned ?
__________________________________
But when the situation had been stabilized, russification measures started again.
_____________________________________
What do you mean when you say "stabilized". Is it possible to mark this "stable time-table period" ?
And again
__________________________________
Russian language was made an official language in the country and an obligatory subject at schools.
______________________________________
Did you mean that native Finnish language was TOTALLY BANNED ?
Thank you.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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taivaansusi
- Member
- Posts: 63
- Joined: 17 Apr 2002 21:12
- Location: Helsinki, Finland
In all respect, Aleksei, are your repetitive inquiries result from disbelief of what you hear?
In my experience it has been difficult to discuss recent wars with russians, not only because of decades of soviet propaganda and the fervent lies in some russian school textbooks (eg. "Finland started the Winter War"), but because Russia has least washed its war-time laundy. Are you aware of the death toll in soviet POWs camps? In some cases, only 10% of axis POWs returned alive from GuLag. For example, SU did *nothing* to supply the POWs it captured in Stalingrad (source: Anthony Beevor - Stalingrad).
My apologies to the moderators, if I am crossing the guidelines.
In my experience it has been difficult to discuss recent wars with russians, not only because of decades of soviet propaganda and the fervent lies in some russian school textbooks (eg. "Finland started the Winter War"), but because Russia has least washed its war-time laundy. Are you aware of the death toll in soviet POWs camps? In some cases, only 10% of axis POWs returned alive from GuLag. For example, SU did *nothing* to supply the POWs it captured in Stalingrad (source: Anthony Beevor - Stalingrad).
My apologies to the moderators, if I am crossing the guidelines.
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Harri
- Member
- Posts: 4230
- Joined: 24 Jun 2002 11:46
- Location: Suomi - Finland
Thank you for helping me (I was very reliefed when I noticed all was already explained...).
About documents Aleksei is missing: I think only a few of us have possibilities to "live in archives" and copy files there, so much of our knowledge is based on public sources i.e. books which are reliable and accurate enough.
Aleksei also asks "Was all this wrong? Why?". Russification was an illegal action, because Finland had its own laws. Finland was populated by Finns and Finnish Swedes. Think about this: would you like if Finland became your "official language", Finnish authorities or Finnish police would take power or your Rouble would be replaced with Finnish Markka?
Well, should we now discuss about WW II issues? Perhaps a new thread would be needed for this "pre-1920 case"?
About documents Aleksei is missing: I think only a few of us have possibilities to "live in archives" and copy files there, so much of our knowledge is based on public sources i.e. books which are reliable and accurate enough.
Aleksei also asks "Was all this wrong? Why?". Russification was an illegal action, because Finland had its own laws. Finland was populated by Finns and Finnish Swedes. Think about this: would you like if Finland became your "official language", Finnish authorities or Finnish police would take power or your Rouble would be replaced with Finnish Markka?
Well, should we now discuss about WW II issues? Perhaps a new thread would be needed for this "pre-1920 case"?
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Hurricane
- Member
- Posts: 62
- Joined: 23 Jul 2003 12:39
- Location: Finland
I found in the book "Jatkosota Kronikka" (Chroicle of the continuation war) a piece of information, of August 5, 1943. It says that the immigration office in Finland had thought about negotiating with Germany about the exchange of up to a further 10,000 Soviet POW's for Ingerians (ethnic finns in German POW camps). The army HQ was also ready for this exchange, but no official discussions had been held before the idea was withdrawn by the foreign office. The reason was that the harsh conditions in the German camps now was known, and an exchange was deemed unwise to do.
Last edited by Hurricane on 19 Nov 2003 08:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Dan
- Member
- Posts: 8429
- Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:06
- Location: California
Today's AP blurb.HELSINKI, Finland, Nov. 18 — Finland said Tuesday it will examine the alleged deportation of some 3,000 foreigners, mostly Jews, to Nazi Germany during World War II, after the Simon Wiesenthal Center sought an investigation.
A letter from Ephraim Zuroff, the center's top Nazi hunter, was received by President Tarja Halonen and the government earlier Tuesday.
The Finns will have to bow down and grovel, pay a few million dollars, and then will be absolved. But don't hold your breath waiting for the Russians to compensate the Finns. Finns don't have any power in the current American administration, so anything bad that happened to them will just have to be accepted.
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Mikko H.
- Member
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- Joined: 07 May 2003 10:19
- Location: Turku, Finland
Mostly Jews??? Now this story is getting a life of its own! There's no way claiming that of the c. 3000 persons deported most were Jews. IIRC Elina Sana has concluded that in addition to the eight Jews deported in November 1942 about few dozen of the deported Soviet POWs were Jews. That is, less than hundred of the c. 3000 deportees were Jews.the alleged deportation of some 3,000 foreigners, mostly Jews,
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Hurricane
- Member
- Posts: 62
- Joined: 23 Jul 2003 12:39
- Location: Finland
This is the first time I see anyone claim they were "mostly Jews". Not even the Simon Wiesenthal center press message claims that. AFAIK, most of the deportees were Soviet POW's that were known members of the Communist party.Dan wrote:Today's AP blurb.HELSINKI, Finland, Nov. 18 — Finland said Tuesday it will examine the alleged deportation of some 3,000 foreigners, mostly Jews, to Nazi Germany during World War II, after the Simon Wiesenthal Center sought an investigation.
A letter from Ephraim Zuroff, the center's top Nazi hunter, was received by President Tarja Halonen and the government earlier Tuesday.
The Finns will have to bow down and grovel, pay a few million dollars, and then will be absolved. But don't hold your breath waiting for the Russians to compensate the Finns. Finns don't have any power in the current American administration, so anything bad that happened to them will just have to be accepted.
And again, the fact that it was not a one-sided deportation to death camps, but a more or less regular exchange of prisoners is completely omitted.
EDIT: Mikko beat me to it.
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Hurricane
- Member
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- Joined: 23 Jul 2003 12:39
- Location: Finland
Here is a link to a review of Sana's book. http://www.helsinki-hs.net/news.asp?id=20031118IE7
And some interesting background information about the history of Jews in Finland: http://www.finemb.org.il/Historia.htm
And some interesting background information about the history of Jews in Finland: http://www.finemb.org.il/Historia.htm
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JariL
- Member
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- Location: Finland
Hi Aleksei,
I'll try to give you some background so that you could understand why the Finnish population did not approve the measures that are called russification in our history books.
When Sweden had to turn Finland over to Russia in 1809, tsar Alexander I assumed the role of grand duke of Finland. He confirmed the laws of the land (Swedish law of 1779) and granted Finland autonomy. Alexander made a personal pledge on the autonomy but all his successors including Nicholas II confirmed the status when they received the throne.
Alexander’s motive for granting autonomy to Finland was that he wanted to pacify Finland quickly in face of the anticipated war with Napoleon. In short, Finland got a government of it's own that was responsible directly to the emperor and that could make proposals directly to the emperor via a special representative in St. Petersburg. Finnish autonomy was initially very similar to many other autonomous areas in Russia. Alexander's policy was a success and Finns soon became loyal citizens of the empire. Finland was by and large left to rule itself as long as it did not cause any trouble. And Finland did not.
When Alexander II became emperor a new phase started in Russian policy towards Finland. Alexander called the diet together in 1863 and after that the diet was called together every three year. What followed was a rapid change in Finnish legislation and society. Model for the legislation was taken mainly from Germany and Sweden.
Finnish was made an official language in the country together with Swedish that had been the only official language up to that point. Finnish postal system was created (it was an independent arm of the imperial post), Bank of Finland was founded and own currency created, Finnish state was allowed it's own finances and it could for example borrow funds from abroad. Taxes collected in Finland remained in the country. Compulsory school system was created which meant that every child had to go to school for a minimum of 4 years and learn to read, write and do elementary math. Finland also had it's own tariff system which was also applied to Russia. So the tariff border ran also between Finland and the rest of the empire. One more thing to note was that Russian citizens did not automatically have citizenship in Finland but Finns were automatically also Russian citizens. This feature had been in place since 1809. This restriction was put in place in order to secure Finnish autonomy but also to promote the idea of Finns making a career in the Russian administration and military. In the latter more than 3.000 Finnish officers reached at least the rank of a colonel between 1809 and 1917.
In Finland Alexander II ruled as a constitutional monarch and his statue still stands in the middle of the main square in Helsinki. In Russia Alexander II's reputation is not markedly better than that of any other of the Romanov's but in Finland he was very much respected. And his loyalty was rewarded by the loyalty of the population. But the loyalty was to the tsar as a person and as an institution. It was not loyalty to Russia in same sense as it was for the Russians themselves.
What Alexander II did was that he let Finland become a full-fledged state within Russia. The only thing that Finland did not have was it's own foreign policy. The new legislation enabled rapid economic development in the country. Finland started to chase Western Europe in economic development by creating industries, first mainly saw mills, later paper and pulp, shipyards, textile industry etc. Governmnet also started to improve infrastructure by building railroads and canals and by improving roads. By the end of the 19th century Finland was well on its way of becoming an industrialized nation.
During Alexander III’s reign situation remained more or less the same as under Alexander II, but at the end of his term came the first step in the russification process. Finnish postal system was to be incorporated into the Russian postal system. The action itself was a symptom of three things in Russia: 1) central administration was getting better and started to concentrate power into it’s hands 2) Slavofilic ideas had gained momentum in Russia and Finland became a symbol of separatism that had to be “destroyed” and 3) Finland was seen as an outpost of the defense of St. Petersburg and had to be controlled better. From Finnish point of view the action was in clear contradiction with the law and it was also considered to be in contradiction with the emperors personal pledge. The question thus was is the imperial law above the Finnish laws. Russian answer was yes, Finnish answer was no.
During Nicholas II’s reign central government tightened it’s grip all over Russia and the russification policy’s main wave came during his time. Revolutionary movement in Russia only increased the efforts, because for her separate status and legislation Finland was a safe heaven for Russian revolutionaries only 30 km from St. Petersburg. No wonder that one of the last sentences of minister Witte when he was murdered was “I think the Finnish question comes first”. Russian administration naturally gained ground slowly but surely. The process was temporarily stopped by the 1904-05 events in Russia, as explained in my previous message, but continued again to reach it’s climax during WWI. Compared to what happened in Europe later in the 20th century the Russian oppression was very light but at the time it was seen to be ruthless –not only in Finland but also in France and Britain. In both cases cultural and trade relationship had made Finland known in some leading circles and thus it was possible to draw the “world opinion” to the matter.
Simultaneously with the russification process Finnish nationalism also started to gain momentum. The more external pressure Russian government exerted, the more support the idea of independence got. Until WWI the resistance was almost exclusively civil disobedience and for example Mahatma Gandhi studied case Finland very carefully when he designed his policy against the British rule in India. In effect civil servants refused to apply legislation that was deemed illegal. There was a divide in the Finish lines though as some supported a policy of temporarily giving in in some of the issues while others supported a strict “not an inch” policy. Included in the arsenal was getting foreign support in various ways and building an image of its’ own to Finland for example by participating in the Olympics, world expo etc. During WWI resistance then got more active forms and led for example to the Jäger movement.
Was what Russia did wrong? Well, from their point of view they tried to harmonize the country and it’s administration and saw no problems in doing so. From Finnish point of view, Russian policy would have lead to marginalisation and destruction of the Finnish culture and language. This had already been seen in some other parts of Russia. So you tell me, was it wrong?
Russian Revolution gave Finland a chance to gain her independence with German help and especially with the help of the German trained Jäger officers. The early stages of the independent country were not easy but all the necessary elements were already in place for running the country.
2. - an you give some practical examples for this "Russification" ????
Russian language was made an official language in the country and an obligatory subject at schools.
Was it wrong ? Why ?
Ask yourself this: You live in Russia that has become part of China. The Chines have If you were forced to learn Chinese, would you like to study it? Previously Russian had been voluntary language and many people had studied it because it was useful and opened broader possibilities in life. Now Russian government decided to forcibly make Russian a third official language in the country. This was conceived as the first step that would eventually have lead Finnish population becoming Russian, at least what comes to language. From the central governments point of view common language naturally made sense. This process continued in Russia during the Soviet period and as mentioned above for example many of the Fenno-Ugric languages and cultures in Russia are now dead or dying.
Answer to the right and wrong in the Finnish-Russian question depends on how you see the role and powers of a state. If it is any consolation, since 1920 Finland has in some respects had the same situation as Russia had with Finland in her relationship with the autonomous Åland Islands, where Swedish language is dominant.
Regards,
Jari
I'll try to give you some background so that you could understand why the Finnish population did not approve the measures that are called russification in our history books.
When Sweden had to turn Finland over to Russia in 1809, tsar Alexander I assumed the role of grand duke of Finland. He confirmed the laws of the land (Swedish law of 1779) and granted Finland autonomy. Alexander made a personal pledge on the autonomy but all his successors including Nicholas II confirmed the status when they received the throne.
Alexander’s motive for granting autonomy to Finland was that he wanted to pacify Finland quickly in face of the anticipated war with Napoleon. In short, Finland got a government of it's own that was responsible directly to the emperor and that could make proposals directly to the emperor via a special representative in St. Petersburg. Finnish autonomy was initially very similar to many other autonomous areas in Russia. Alexander's policy was a success and Finns soon became loyal citizens of the empire. Finland was by and large left to rule itself as long as it did not cause any trouble. And Finland did not.
When Alexander II became emperor a new phase started in Russian policy towards Finland. Alexander called the diet together in 1863 and after that the diet was called together every three year. What followed was a rapid change in Finnish legislation and society. Model for the legislation was taken mainly from Germany and Sweden.
Finnish was made an official language in the country together with Swedish that had been the only official language up to that point. Finnish postal system was created (it was an independent arm of the imperial post), Bank of Finland was founded and own currency created, Finnish state was allowed it's own finances and it could for example borrow funds from abroad. Taxes collected in Finland remained in the country. Compulsory school system was created which meant that every child had to go to school for a minimum of 4 years and learn to read, write and do elementary math. Finland also had it's own tariff system which was also applied to Russia. So the tariff border ran also between Finland and the rest of the empire. One more thing to note was that Russian citizens did not automatically have citizenship in Finland but Finns were automatically also Russian citizens. This feature had been in place since 1809. This restriction was put in place in order to secure Finnish autonomy but also to promote the idea of Finns making a career in the Russian administration and military. In the latter more than 3.000 Finnish officers reached at least the rank of a colonel between 1809 and 1917.
In Finland Alexander II ruled as a constitutional monarch and his statue still stands in the middle of the main square in Helsinki. In Russia Alexander II's reputation is not markedly better than that of any other of the Romanov's but in Finland he was very much respected. And his loyalty was rewarded by the loyalty of the population. But the loyalty was to the tsar as a person and as an institution. It was not loyalty to Russia in same sense as it was for the Russians themselves.
What Alexander II did was that he let Finland become a full-fledged state within Russia. The only thing that Finland did not have was it's own foreign policy. The new legislation enabled rapid economic development in the country. Finland started to chase Western Europe in economic development by creating industries, first mainly saw mills, later paper and pulp, shipyards, textile industry etc. Governmnet also started to improve infrastructure by building railroads and canals and by improving roads. By the end of the 19th century Finland was well on its way of becoming an industrialized nation.
During Alexander III’s reign situation remained more or less the same as under Alexander II, but at the end of his term came the first step in the russification process. Finnish postal system was to be incorporated into the Russian postal system. The action itself was a symptom of three things in Russia: 1) central administration was getting better and started to concentrate power into it’s hands 2) Slavofilic ideas had gained momentum in Russia and Finland became a symbol of separatism that had to be “destroyed” and 3) Finland was seen as an outpost of the defense of St. Petersburg and had to be controlled better. From Finnish point of view the action was in clear contradiction with the law and it was also considered to be in contradiction with the emperors personal pledge. The question thus was is the imperial law above the Finnish laws. Russian answer was yes, Finnish answer was no.
During Nicholas II’s reign central government tightened it’s grip all over Russia and the russification policy’s main wave came during his time. Revolutionary movement in Russia only increased the efforts, because for her separate status and legislation Finland was a safe heaven for Russian revolutionaries only 30 km from St. Petersburg. No wonder that one of the last sentences of minister Witte when he was murdered was “I think the Finnish question comes first”. Russian administration naturally gained ground slowly but surely. The process was temporarily stopped by the 1904-05 events in Russia, as explained in my previous message, but continued again to reach it’s climax during WWI. Compared to what happened in Europe later in the 20th century the Russian oppression was very light but at the time it was seen to be ruthless –not only in Finland but also in France and Britain. In both cases cultural and trade relationship had made Finland known in some leading circles and thus it was possible to draw the “world opinion” to the matter.
Simultaneously with the russification process Finnish nationalism also started to gain momentum. The more external pressure Russian government exerted, the more support the idea of independence got. Until WWI the resistance was almost exclusively civil disobedience and for example Mahatma Gandhi studied case Finland very carefully when he designed his policy against the British rule in India. In effect civil servants refused to apply legislation that was deemed illegal. There was a divide in the Finish lines though as some supported a policy of temporarily giving in in some of the issues while others supported a strict “not an inch” policy. Included in the arsenal was getting foreign support in various ways and building an image of its’ own to Finland for example by participating in the Olympics, world expo etc. During WWI resistance then got more active forms and led for example to the Jäger movement.
Was what Russia did wrong? Well, from their point of view they tried to harmonize the country and it’s administration and saw no problems in doing so. From Finnish point of view, Russian policy would have lead to marginalisation and destruction of the Finnish culture and language. This had already been seen in some other parts of Russia. So you tell me, was it wrong?
Russian Revolution gave Finland a chance to gain her independence with German help and especially with the help of the German trained Jäger officers. The early stages of the independent country were not easy but all the necessary elements were already in place for running the country.
2. - an you give some practical examples for this "Russification" ????
Russian language was made an official language in the country and an obligatory subject at schools.
Was it wrong ? Why ?
Ask yourself this: You live in Russia that has become part of China. The Chines have If you were forced to learn Chinese, would you like to study it? Previously Russian had been voluntary language and many people had studied it because it was useful and opened broader possibilities in life. Now Russian government decided to forcibly make Russian a third official language in the country. This was conceived as the first step that would eventually have lead Finnish population becoming Russian, at least what comes to language. From the central governments point of view common language naturally made sense. This process continued in Russia during the Soviet period and as mentioned above for example many of the Fenno-Ugric languages and cultures in Russia are now dead or dying.
Answer to the right and wrong in the Finnish-Russian question depends on how you see the role and powers of a state. If it is any consolation, since 1920 Finland has in some respects had the same situation as Russia had with Finland in her relationship with the autonomous Åland Islands, where Swedish language is dominant.
Regards,
Jari
