Finland and "Final Solution" in WWII?

[Juha Hujanen]

The Finns will have to bow down and grovel, pay a few million dollars, and then will be absolved.

Not with my tax money

[Toivo]

Greetings,
I read article about this book. Among those 3000 there were 557 estonians given out.
Finland gave also out estonians to Soviet Union after war ended and Swede gave estonian and other baltic freedom fighters out to soviets also.

PM of Finland apologized to jews for this in 2000 last time I read but has anyone apologized to baltic nations?...

Regards

[Hurricane]

Greetings,
I read article about this book. Among those 3000 there were 557 estonians given out.
Finland gave also out estonians to Soviet Union after war ended and Swede gave estonian and other baltic freedom fighters out to soviets also.

PM of Finland apologized to jews for this in 2000 last time I read but has anyone apologized to baltic nations?...

Regards

How sad it ever is, Finland had little choice but to comply when Soviet after the war demanded that all POW's of Soviet origin were to be returned to Soviet. It is the winners who set the rules, as you probably painfully are aware.

Again, about the 3000 prisoners sent to the Nazis, I think it should be stressed again that there should be made a difference between the army's rather ordinary exchange of POW's (which comrises the vast majority of those 3000 persons), and the ones sent by the state police, VALPO. These were sent without getting anything in exchange, and in some cases under dubious motives. It is these (<100 people) who I think should be researched in more detail.

[Aleksei22]

Hello, Jari


Thank you for your short and kind description the history of Finland in 1809-1917.
It was very pleasant to read it, but I am 100% sure that you DEFINATELY know that the reality was more comlex, contradictive, bloody and ... etc.

The main problem in your history pattern is scematic with TOTAL ABSENCE of the HISTORY driving forces. Your next problem are - TOTAL ABSENCE a bias between event(s) and corporative iterests of defenite social layers of Finland’s society (working class, farmers, torpars, kagal and so called “elite”).

So, Please, find below my short remarks, embedded “inside” your text. Some part of original text
Was skipped for sake of simplisity.

________________________________________________

Finnish population did not approve ..... russification.
________________________________________________


Who was the main OPPONENT for proposed russification. working class? Farmers? Torpars? Kagal ? Or so called “elite” (with strongest sweedesh roots as a role) ?.



___________________________________________
Finnish autonomy was initially very similar to many other autonomous areas in Russia.
One more thing to note was that Russian citizens did not automatically have citizenship in Finland but Finns were automatically also Russian citizens. This feature had been in place since 1809. This restriction was put in place in order to secure Finnish autonomy but also to promote the idea of Finns making a career in the Russian administration and military.
But the loyalty was to the tsar as a person and as an institution. It was not loyalty to Russia in same sense as it was for the Russians themselves. What Alexander II did was that he let Finland become a full-fledged state within Russia. The only thing that Finland did not have was it's own foreign policy.
___________________________________________


Give as a sign, please. Make you analogy between Finland an ANY other state in Europe (and ANY autonomous areas in Russia) , whom
Had so WIDE bag of personal and corporate RIGHTS with same one’s of priveleges with ZERO-LIKE obligations to central goverment.



__________________________________________
Taxes collected in Finland remained in the country.
Finland also had it's own tariff system which was also applied to Russia.
_________________________________________


Do you have PAYMENT balance of Finland during 1809-1917 ? I am interested with this balance assosiated with well known famine period (1860-1873). May I ask you to publish it ?





____________________________________
In the Russian duma the liberal oppositions slogan was "make Russia like Finland, not Finland like Russia". With this they meant that Finland was 20 to 50 years ahead of Russia in almost all respects and they wanted Russian governmet to copy the "best practises" from Finland instead of suppressing them. However, also the Russian liberals saw Finland as an integral part of the empire.
_________________________________________


PS. - Term LIBERAL in day passed and days present ( in Russia) – is a SYNONIM (universak mark, ID ) for clinical IDIOTS or TRAITORS.

Please look at some present Duma members (Hakamada, Nemtzov, Yavlinsky, Lukin ... etc. )
All of them are LIBERAL, but it doesnt means that they are IDIOTS. It definetely mean that all of them are TRATORS.






_______________________________________________________
By the end of the 19th century Finland was well on its way of becoming an industrialized nation. With this they meant that Finland was 20 to 50 years ahead of Russia in almost all respects .....
______________________________________________________



Finland’s Chronological Population profile (cities + urban areas): -

1805 – 5.5 %
1860 - 6.3 %
1905 - 13.1 %

Does that need any more comment ?????






__________________________________________
During Alexander III’s. Finnish postal system was to be incorporated into the Russian postal system. The action itself was a symptom of three things in Russia: 1) central administration was getting better and started to concentrate power into it’s hands 2) Slavofilic ideas had gained momentum in Russia and Finland became a symbol of separatism that had to be “destroyed” and 3) Finland was seen as an outpost of the defense of St. Petersburg and had to be controlled better.
__________________________________________




Who was the main OPPONENT for proposed centralization . working class? Farmers? Torpars? Kagal ? Or so called “elite” (with strongest sweedesh roots as a role) ?.

___________________________________________________
During Nicholas II’s reign central government tightened it’s grip all over Russia and the russification policy’s main wave came during his time. Revolutionary movement in Russia only increased the efforts, because for her separate status and legislation Finland was a safe heaven for Russian revolutionaries only 30 km from St. Petersburg. No wonder that one of the last sentences of minister Witte when he was murdered was “I think the Finnish question comes first”. Russian administration naturally gained ground slowly but surely.
Compared to what happened in Europe later in the 20th century the Russian oppression was very light but at the time it was seen to be ruthless –not only in Finland but also in France and Britain. Simultaneously with the russification process Finnish nationalism also started to gain momentum.
______________________________________________


Nationalism of whom ? Nationalism of Working-class or so called “Elite”(mainly Sweedish) ???



_____________________________________________________
Included in the arsenal was getting foreign support in various ways and building an image of its’ own to Finland for example by participating in the Olympics, world expo etc. During WWI resistance then got more active forms and led for example to the Jäger movement.
___________________________________________________

May I ask you to familize me with some example of Japaneese support to Finland in 1900-1905 ? Why Japaneese + UK + USA bankers ( with jewish roots in two former case) – were SO HARD interested in FUNDING some Finland’s social layers ?????



____________________________________________
marginalisation and destruction of the Finnish culture and language.
_____________________________________________


Only that ??? What about de-industrialization ?


____________________________________________
Russian language was made an official language in the country and an obligatory subject at schools.
_____________________________________________


In what kind of school ? Schools for working class or schools for “elite” too ?


______________________________________________________
Ask yourself this: You live in Russia that has become part of China. The Chines have If you were forced to learn Chinese, would you like to study it?
____________________________________________________


Change term “China” to Estonia, Latvia, Litva and try to say this onece more again, Please ...


________________________________________
Now Russian government decided to forcibly make Russian a third official language in the country.
__________________________________________


It wasnt “forcibly make” – but ABSOLUTELY correct ones action due to 1912 Law, whict has been prepearing to see a “light” in so GENTLE and SOFT manner.




____________________________________________
During Nicholas II’s reign central government tightened it’s grip all over Russia and the russification policy’s main wave came during his time. Revolutionary movement in Russia only increased the efforts, because for her separate status and legislation Finland was a safe heaven for Russian revolutionaries only 30 km from St. Petersburg. No wonder that one of the last sentences of minister Witte when he was murdered was “I think the Finnish question comes first”.
______________________________________________



Thank you. May I ask you to tell me ALL infor that you know about two principal topics: -


1. - Jewish criminal ring (anti-Russia) in Finland ( illegal vodka + weapons traffic)

2. – Jewish TERRORIST network in Finland (Sestriretsk, Vyborg, Helsinki, etc/)



Thank you.

[Harri]

Among those 3000 there were 557 estonians given out.

That's strange. I think Estonians came voluntarily to Finland to fight against USSR? I'm a bit sceptical about that piece of information. Many Estonians fought in Finnish Army already in 1941.

Finnish Doctor of Jurisprudince Jukka Lindstedt from the Ministry of Justice says that there are less than 45 to 50 Jews among the relieved Soviet soldiers (so far the "clear number" of Jews is 39). In Finland Jews belonged to the same "category" as Russians. Most soldiers were relieved from the so called "Discipline Camp" which was located at Syyspohja (Ruokolahti) South Eastern Finland. This was a special POW camp not under the command of Home Troops Staff but "Supervision Department" of Supreme HQ. It was the department of "Intelligence Section".

Finnish Minister (a title) Max Jacobson (a Jew and the son of wartime Leader of Finnish Jew Community) said that there is really nothing new. Finland releaved only foreign people and soldiers to Germany (not its own citizens) and this separate Finland from other nations fighting with Germany. He also said that the person in Wiesenthal Centre who wrote the letter to Finnish State President Tarja Halonen don't know the history of Finland.

Finnish Professor Heikki Ylikangas will examine this case. He is without doubt the most qualified historian for this job. He said last evening that the complete studying of this case would need several years. And after this there are also other similar kind of cases which concern relieving of people to USSR after the war...

About this book of historian Elina Sana: all this "media success" is very good free advertise for her book and that means money. Very important to unsuccesfull historian whose views and theories most of her collegues don't sign. Very interesting...

All these papers and files have been in public archives since the war. It is interesting that no-one (not even foreign researchers) have found nothing special. I guess if Finns had liked to hide something there would have been enough time to do it.

Finland gave also out estonians to Soviet Union after war ended and Swede gave estonian and other baltic freedom fighters out to soviets also.

Finland relieved also Finnish citizens to USSR after the war ended. This was not voluntary act but based on Interim Peace Treaty. Finland had to relieve all former Soviet citizens to USSR even if many of them didn't like that a lot - especially those who had changed their nationality during the war or co-operated with Finns (for example soldiers of tribal battalions.)

PM of Finland apologized to jews for this in 2000 last time I read but has anyone apologized to baltic nations?...

Do you accept my deepest apologies, Erik?

[Harri]

What is your point Aleksei?

May I answer also because Jari answered to "my questions"?

The main problem in your history pattern is scematic with TOTAL ABSENCE of the HISTORY driving forces. Your next problem are - TOTAL ABSENCE a bias between event(s) and corporative iterests of defenite social layers of Finland’s society (working class, farmers, torpars, kagal and so called “elite”).

Why don't you buy/loan history books? This is a discussion forum, and any of us don't probably have enough time to tell every nuances of history from A to Z.

In Finland this driving force was the "Russian attack" against Finnish laws. No-one can say that this wouldn't have great effect on every social classes in Finland. That led to forming of several organizations which varied from GAGAL to Civil/Red Guards and Fire Brigades to Athletics Teams. All these were usually for certain social classes but their goal was to oppose russification in Finland. Usually their methods were "passive". Armed activism didn't have very much support initially but it was gradually (about since 1905) seen the only way to arrange effective resistance if needed.

Who was the main OPPONENT for proposed russification. working class? Farmers? Torpars? Kagal ? Or so called “elite” (with strongest sweedesh roots as a role) ?.

For the first time in Finnish history russification united all Finnish people and nearly every Finns opposed it. For the second time Finns united due to USSR and Winter War in 1939.

Give as a sign, please. Make you analogy between Finland an ANY other state in Europe (and ANY autonomous areas in Russia) , whom Had so WIDE bag of personal and corporate RIGHTS with same one’s of priveleges with ZERO-LIKE obligations to central goverment.

No-one. Just these made Finland a precious autonomous state with Russia. What zero-like obligations you have in mind?

Many Finns for example served voluntarily in Russian Army and Navy. IIRC during the WW I the commander of Russian Baltic Fleet was commanded by a Finnish Admiral and Mannerheim was the commander of Cavalry Army Corps etc. During WW I Finland supplied Russia and its army and paid extra war taxes to Russia (because Finns didn't have to serve in Russian Army).

Do you have PAYMENT balance of Finland during 1809-1917 ? I am interested with this balance assosiated with well known famine period (1860-1873). May I ask you to publish it ?

I don't know anything about that so Jari may answer this one.

PS. - Term LIBERAL in day passed and days present ( in Russia) – is a SYNONIM (universak mark, ID ) for clinical IDIOTS or TRAITORS.
Please look at some present Duma members (Hakamada, Nemtzov, Yavlinsky, Lukin ... etc. )
All of them are LIBERAL, but it doesnt means that they are IDIOTS. It definetely mean that all of them are TRATORS.

It is interesting that certain words have also other meanings in different countries, just like a word propaganda - in Finland it is always somehow related to USSR...

You must be the supporter or mr. Putin then - or Communists?

Finland’s Chronological Population profile (cities + urban areas): -
1805 – 5.5 %
1860 - 6.3 %
1905 - 13.1 %
Does that need any more comment ?????

Tell us too! We can't read your thoughts.

The main reason why population grew in cities was industrialization. New companies were founded thanks to rather liberal policy. Railways and canals were built. People could move more and more easily. What else did you expected?

Who was the main OPPONENT for proposed centralization . working class? Farmers? Torpars? Kagal ? Or so called “elite” (with strongest sweedesh roots as a role) ?.

Finnish people.

May I ask you to familize me with some example of Japaneese support to Finland in 1900-1905 ? Why Japaneese + UK + USA bankers ( with jewish roots in two former case) – were SO HARD interested in FUNDING some Finland’s social layers ?????.

What are you exactly suggesting? Social layers? Why don't you say it straight so we all understand what you mean?

In what kind of school ? Schools for working class or schools for “elite” too ?

In every schools. Finnish school system was rather developed already at the beginnig of 20th Century although there were big differences between the different parts of the country. My grandfathers who were born in 1900 and 1907 in South Eastern Finland were both in primary school (four and six classes). At that stage majority of Finnish people could read and write. My grandfathers had to study Russian language.

Change term “China” to Estonia, Latvia, Litva and try to say this onece more again, Please ...

No, China is very good in this.

It wasnt “forcibly make” – but ABSOLUTELY correct ones action due to 1912 Law, whict has been prepearing to see a “light” in so GENTLE and SOFT manner.

It was an illegal act in Finland. Finns noticed that "gentle and soft manner" rather soon.

Thank you. May I ask you to tell me ALL infor that you know about two principal topics: -
1. - Jewish criminal ring (anti-Russia) in Finland ( illegal vodka + weapons traffic)
2. - Jewish TERRORIST network in Finland (Sestriretsk, Vyborg, Helsinki, etc/)

Why are you so interested in Jews in Finland and what this has to do with Holocaust (in topic)?

[Toivo]

Hey Harri,
You're probably right, I haven't looked into this subject in depth. Just read this article about Sana's book and there were no comments wether her facts were investigated. So I don't know for sure how much of those numbers were correct.
And about apology - you know what I ment.

Regards

[JariL]

Hi,


<Thank you for your short and kind description the history of Finland in 1809-1917.
<It was very pleasant to read it, but I am 100% sure that you DEFINATELY know that the reality <was more comlex, contradictive, bloody and ... etc.

It is not possible to give a very complex picture in this kind of discussion. The main point was that there were three phases in the relationship between Russia and Finland: left to cope, quick development, harmonization attempt with the empire.

<The main problem in your history pattern is scematic with TOTAL ABSENCE of the HISTORY <driving forces. Your next problem are - TOTAL ABSENCE a bias between event(s) and <corporative iterests of defenite social layers of Finland’s society (working class, farmers, torpars, <kagal and so called “elite”).

In the question of independence all social classes were unanimous in their desire to break free from Russia. But the motives were not the same for all and that was one of the reasons that led to the Civil War. From Marxist point of view the reactionary forces won and revolution was crushed. As with almost any independence movement the learned elite was the initiator. In Finnish case the elite was often originally of Swedish speaking origin. The interesting feature was that many of them changed their language into Finnish because that was the only way of getting the message through to the “masses”. But Finnish nationalism had strong roots in the land owning peasantry too. Lutheran religion was also an important factor that separated Finland from Russia. Religion also clearly divided Finland in two halves what comes to socialist ideas: in the Northern part socialism had to fight religious movements and did not root, in the South it gained much wider support. Later on the situation was reversed to an extent.

<Who was the main OPPONENT for proposed russification. working class? Farmers? Torpars? <Kagal ? Or so called “elite” (with strongest sweedesh roots as a role) ?.

Basically all those who could read and write. Opinion leaders belonged naturally mainly to the learned elite and there Swedish speakers formed the majority back then.

<Give as a sign, please. Make you analogy between Finland an ANY other state in Europe (and <ANY autonomous areas in Russia) , whom Had so WIDE bag of personal and corporate <RIGHTS with same one’s of priveleges with ZERO-LIKE obligations to central goverment.

During Alexander II reign Finland became a special case. Initially for example the Russian part of Poland had a degree of autonomy but it lead to a revolt and was abolished. I don’t have any source at hand to check names of autonomous areas in Russia, but it was typical for the imperial government to occupy a territory and then grant it an autonomy on some level to calm down the anxiety of the people. This was also a symptom of the weakness of the Russian governmental system that was unable to control the whole country. It was easier to let people take care of their internal matters and concentrate in foreign policy and military issues. This changed in the latter half of 19th century when the administration got better and means of communication improved (telex, railroads, postal services etc.)





<Do you have PAYMENT balance of Finland during 1809-1917 ? I am interested with this <balance assosiated with well known famine period (1860-1873). May I ask you to publish it ?

Unfortunately I don’t have this information available in any of the books I have. Economic history is not my specialty. What I can say is that the famine hit Finland hard in 1869 and that the Finnish senate had to take a FIM 6 million loan from the Rotschild bank house. The loan was taken directly from the bank instead of issuing a bond into the market, because there was no time to start selling the bonds. Finnish senate was not prepared to the poor food situation and the grain bought from the world market arrived too late and could not be distributed during the winter months.

<PS. - Term LIBERAL in day passed and days present ( in Russia) – is a SYNONIM (universak <mark, ID ) for clinical IDIOTS or TRAITORS.

Well, some things do not change it seems. Those days’ liberals opposed the powers of the tzar and demanded constitutional government. After 1904-05 events they got Duma but the tzar was not ready to give any real powers to the Duma. Rest of his reign Nicholas then spent fighting over his position.

<Finland’s Chronological Population profile (cities + urban areas): -

<1805 – 5.5 %
<1860 - 6.3 %
<1905 - 13.1 %

<Does that need any more comment ?????

Yes it does, because you confuse industrialization and urbanization. Forest industry was very labour intensive but did not require urbanization. This is because most of the labour that is needed was connected in cutting the trees and transporting them to the factory and then transporting the goods with ships to world market. Urbanisation in Finland started relatively late, actually first after WWII. Before that Finland was a very agrarian society and even the most important industries were “agrarian” by nature. Heavy industries did not play any significant role in Finland prior to WWII. That was also one of the reasons why Finland had severe ammunition shortage during the Winter War.

But I did not say that Finland was industrialized just like that but that the process started when Alexander II was the tzar. He helped to lay the foundation that came into full blossom in the 20th century.

<Nationalism of whom ? Nationalism of Working-class or so called “Elite”(mainly Sweedish) ???

Nationalism was spread by the school system and it reached all classes of the society. Later on when socialism came into the stage, question on what sort of society should be built became a dividing factor. Independence from Russia does not seem to have been seriously questioned though. Had the Red side won the civil war, it is of course an interesting question if they had been able to keep Finland separate from Soviet Union for any length of time.

<May I ask you to familize me with some example of Japaneese support to Finland in 1900-1905

The Japanese tried to ignite a rebellion in Finland during the Russo-Japanese war in 1904. Kagaali was the organization they tried to use for their purposes. There were some attempts to smuggle arms into Finland but they mostly failed.


<Why Japaneese + UK + USA bankers ( with jewish roots in two former case) – were SO HARD <Interested in FUNDING some Finland’s social layers ?????

Finland had proven to be a good solid credit. Also many of the industrial companies were founded by foreigners, especially British but also some Germans and Norwegians were present. USA was not too interested in Finland back then. Finnish-US relations were created first after Finland had become independent. I have never seen any information indicating the Finnish finances had been somehow especially dependent on Jewish bankers.

<Only that ??? What about de-industrialization ?

I don’t think that that would have happened. On the contrary, Russian government was very keen on buying products from Finland.


<1. - Jewish criminal ring (anti-Russia) in Finland ( illegal vodka + weapons traffic)
<2. – Jewish TERRORIST network in Finland (Sestriretsk, Vyborg, Helsinki, etc/)

I am a bit lost here. Are you referring to the Russian revolutionaries that stayed at times in Finland? As long as the revolutionaries did not awake the attention of the Finnish police they were relatively safe on Finnish soil in late 19th century and almost until WWI. But the actions of the Russian revolutionary cells in Finland are not really my cup of tea. If they had been predomintaly “Jewish” in their character, they would certainly have drawn attention because before 1918 Jewish population in Finland did not have citizenship in the country.

Regards,

Jari

[taivaansusi]

"Ask yourself this: You live in Russia that has become part of China. The Chines have If you were forced to learn Chinese, would you like to study it?"

Change term “China” to Estonia, Latvia, Litva and try to say this onece more again, Please ...

It was not the balts who conquered Russia, but russians who conquered the Baltic states. Parts of those nations have been subject to Tsar from the 18th century, like Finland.

Considering the genocides, cultural war and program to "russify" the entire baltic peoples during the later part of the Communist rule, russians in the contemporary Baltic states are lucky to be allowed to live there.

[taivaansusi]

Greetings,
I read article about this book. Among those 3000 there were 557 estonians given out.

Considering they were Soviet POWs, they must have been estonian communists?

[Toivo]

Aleksei wrote:
"Ask yourself this: You live in Russia that has become part of China. The Chines have If you were forced to learn Chinese, would you like to study it?
____________________________________________________


Change term “China” to Estonia, Latvia, Litva and try to say this onece more again, Please ... " "

You mean we in here Estonia force russians to learn estonian? Damn sure we do! It's official language here you know. However, we still allow to get education in russian, we allow russian speak in russian and we know how to speak russian ourselves too. However many russian, mostly older, do not want to learn or speak in estonian but demand we'd speak in russian. Younger people don't have this problem.
And to compare baltic nations with chinese - please! You make yourself look dumb just. We have always lived here, for thousands of years. Russians haven't. We still accept them if they follow laws as we accept any nations here. You however seem to have something against baltic nations. Wonder what this is?

If you, however, ment your question in way that Taivaansusi understood this, I agree with him.

[Toivo]

taivaansusi wrote:
"Considering they were Soviet POWs, they must have been estonian communists?"

What the hell are you talking about?? Who of those estonians given to Gestapo in 1942 or 1944 and later were soviet POWs or estonian communists? You make no sense, sorry. Care to explain perhaps?

The article I read about Sana's book mentioned those were estonian who escaped to Finland who were given out in 1942. Finland had no communist goverment, why would estonian communists flee there? No, they fled only to East.
In 1944 and later estonians fled again to Finland and those weren't again communists.
As much as I have read elsewhere previously, nowhere is mentioned that estonian "reds" fled to Finland.

Regards

[taivaansusi]

What the hell are you talking about?? Who of those estonians given to Gestapo in 1942 or 1944 and later were soviet POWs or estonian communists? You make no sense, sorry. Care to explain perhaps?

Oh, I'm sorry. I haven't read Sana's book, only articles discussing the question. All I have read is about exchange of POWs and less than hundred extradited bolsheviks (including 30 jews), so when you mentioned the extradited estonians handed over to Gestapo I assumed they had to be part of those.

[Toivo]

That's Ok. I haven't read book either, just article about this. But I happen to know (and it's actually quite logical) where did estonian communists or refugees escape in 1941 or 1944+. No need to know book to know those facts...

[Juha Tompuri]

PS. - Term LIBERAL in day passed and days present ( in Russia) – is a SYNONIM (universak mark, ID ) for clinical IDIOTS or TRAITORS.

Aha...well that explains a lot about Vladimir Zhirinovsky and his Liberal Democratic Party of Russia.


Regards, Juha