Partisan war-crime against KWB 2/44

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Bergmolch
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#16

Post by Bergmolch » 14 Oct 2007, 12:26

Thanks a lot Mark!
Then you think Nava-Corbatti are wrong when they link those names to the supposed partisan crime?
Did you check the pictures on Corbatti-Nava regarding the KJ burned alive? I dont remember if it's linked to this event or the ambush in Rifembergo.

May I have anyway a PDF copy of your article? Looks you have put very nice maps on that!

Cheers
T

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#17

Post by Mark V. » 15 Oct 2007, 00:41

Drapeau Noir wrote:Thanks a lot Mark!
Then you think Nava-Corbatti are wrong when they link those names to the supposed partisan crime?
Yes, obviously. The victims he (or his source) claim to had been mutilated at Rifembergo:
a) were KIA and died of combat wounds
b) were KIA in several different locations far away from Rifembergo
Drapeau Noir wrote:Did you check the pictures on Corbatti-Nava regarding the KJ burned alive? I dont remember if it's linked to this event or the ambush in Rifembergo.
I believe you refer to the incident in early February 1944 when the partisans ambushed and annihilated a mixed German police - Italian column and afterwards burned their bodies (p.156-157), the KJ were directly involved in it but were the first unit to arrive on the scene and then participated in the retaliatory action - burning down of two villages.


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Bergmolch
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#18

Post by Bergmolch » 15 Oct 2007, 12:17

Hi Mark,

If I dont remember wrong the captation on the picture of the guy burned alive says that's a KJ, and actually I think to remember he was wearing an SS tarnjacke?

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#19

Post by Mark V. » 15 Oct 2007, 13:59

Drapeau Noir wrote:Hi Mark,

If I dont remember wrong the captation on the picture of the guy burned alive says that's a KJ, and actually I think to remember he was wearing an SS tarnjacke?
Sorry Tom, you are right.
This is a photo of a separate incident and shows a dead KJ, though captioned as mutilated, he is amazingly still fully dressed in his tarnjacke and except for what appears to be a pretty damaged face, there's no other signs of what could be described as mutilation. In this regard also see c.g.'s initial post in this topic.
I'm not saying the partisans were angels, there could as well be some incident not registered in the WASt but this doesn't appear to be the case in this incident.

A slight correction, those policemen and Italians mentioned above, weren't burnt alive.

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#20

Post by Bergmolch » 15 Oct 2007, 14:19

Hi Mark,

nothing to be sorry about, I'm not saying partisans were bad KJ good, I do not belive in good and bad, I belive in men, and there are good men and bad men everywhere, between partisans and also between KJ, so there's no point for me to say they weren't angels, and of course I got a strong link with KJ military tradition so I use to be on their side even I have got my own eyes and I can understand who's doing what and when this is a bad thing.

The only thing left to explain is the quite extreme use of those "beheadings" pictures regarding the reprisal: dosen't look to me a KJ habit, of course yes they use to do reprisals and similia, but looks to me a very extreme act, with a gruesome use of the pictures, and I would say to my eyes looks it would be something thougher than the "usual" antipartisan stuff, maybe following a bad partisan "act".
I mean, it's the first time we see something like that about the KJ and, of course, kill a partisan during a reprisal or behead a prisioner are quite different things, even for though soldiers like the KJ.

You think that gruesome act was then wandon?

Just my two cents.
Thanks a lot
T

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#21

Post by Mark V. » 15 Oct 2007, 16:21

I understand your point but one has to wonder why would they then need to make up a story like this?

You also asked about the notice they left to the partisans:
"Best regards from SS-KWB, a man in green jacket."

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#22

Post by Bergmolch » 15 Oct 2007, 17:44

Thanks Mark!
I didn't know about the notice, where did you find the info?
Looks very odd to me do something like that If you weren't thinking you were rightdoing, since as you know the use of leave notices with explaination had the meaning of leave some official "excuses" to let understand that they were following the Hague and Geneva rules (Like shooting a franc tireur who was shooting against the official occupational forces)..
Of course this is not the case, cut a head of a prisoner is a crime of course, but looks odd to me that if they knew that was a crime, why leave a message with their name on it, leaving some "weapons" for an ipotetical future trial of war crime?
Even today most of the KJ vets refuse to talk to anyone because they are shit scared about the facts of Avasinis, and for sure the Avasinis reprisal was closer to Hague rules than the beheading of that man, and is not sure even they did it!

This fact doesn't look clear at all, I would like to understand more about that, looks like there is something we couldn't find out.
Don't you think Mark?

PS-Maybe I look retarded but may you explainin the meaning of "a man with a green jacket"?

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#23

Post by Mark V. » 15 Oct 2007, 19:41

Regarding the note. It was recovered by the partisan activists after the event and back then they actually didn't understand the meaning of the abbrevation "SS-KWB" and referred to it as SS-KWK in the partisan reports. The info comes from an article by Dr.Tone Ferenc: Dva od njih so obglavili s sekiro [»Two of them were beheaded with an axe«]. And "the man with the green jacket" would mean a man with a green camo smock - meaning a Waffen-SS man.

The notice sounds much like the entire incident - like a sick joke. Obviously such incidents were rare but they nevertheless did take place, probably more so on the Eastern front (vs. the partisans) though a similar occured a year earlier in this area.

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#24

Post by orvenc » 21 Oct 2007, 22:37

For the facts of Avasinis (Italy) - 1945, May, 2 - look, if you wont, this blog:

su Internet è presente da quasi due anni un blog dedicato alle vicende della strage nazista di Avasinis (Udine) del 2 maggio 1945: nelle intenzioni dei promotori vi è la creazione di uno spazio telematico ove trovare informazioni sull’episodio, materiale di documentazione e occasioni di discussione sulle tante problematiche ancora aperte. In questi giorni è in particolare aperto un dibattito sul “senso” di una ricerca pluridecennale, sull’importanza di coltivare il “dovere della memoria”: temi e tematiche capaci di superare le “strette” dimensioni dell’episodio friulano e diventare occasione di confronto e di discussione.
Un ringraziamento a quanti vorranno dare un’occhiata o magari collaborare con commenti o suggerimenti al sito http://blog.libero.it/2diMaj . Grazie anche se si riterrà utile segnalare ad altre persone potenzialmente interessate l’operatività del blog
.

Thanks

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Re: Partisan war-crime against KWB 2/44

#25

Post by Bergmolch » 27 Feb 2008, 14:17

Nachname: Muratowitsch
Vorname: Mustafa
Dienstgrad: Hilfswilliger
Geburtsdatum: 1917
Geburtsort:
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 19.02.1944
Todes-/Vermisstenort:
Mustafa Muratowitsch ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Costermano (Italien) .
Endgrablage: Block 2 Grab 1184

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Re: Partisan war-crime against KWB 2/44

#26

Post by filigranofil » 08 Oct 2018, 01:14

Hello,

Max put a list of 15 Jäger, which was after his infos massacred alltogether in one Patrol by partisans. Death data 19/2/1944, buried into Fogliano’s cemetery.


Maxis wrote:

Following my infos, this fact happened on february 1944 (during a snowing day and before Sebrelje fact) in area Selva di Tarnova. Patrol was formed with 15 Jagers:

two fm 2 Kp
nine fm 3 kp
four fm 4 kp

An anonymous letter was delivered to KJ command some days after massacre, indicating spot of the crime. Neverthless a snow storm, bodies were founded: heads, mostly, cut-off, picked on bayonets and emerging fm snow. Funeral procession was made in Sagrado
They were very young 18/20 y.o. and were buried into Fogliano’s cemetery with death data 19/2/1944. Then were translated to Costermano sul Garda, where they still rest in peace.

Heinrich Albert
Julius Benz
Ernst Bormann
Andreas Dorfler
Stefan Gubansk
Gerhard Hirsch
Hans Krellner
Mathias Kirmeier
Franz Meierhofer
Werner Messinger
Mustafa Muratovich
Johann Ramsauer
Herbert Schmidt
Hans Schoger
Willi Telmann


Best
Max

Mark V. solved the Problem and found data from Volksbund (VdK) and also data of KIA on several places. He put the data for 13 Jäger, but Krellner Hans and Muratowitsch Mustafa was KIA also on 19.2.1944.

So we can see, how problematic are data "Following my infos" about massacre.


I can add only additional data from Volksbund:

Nachname: Dörfler
Vorname: Andreas
Dienstgrad: Sturmmann
Geburtsdatum: 20.12.1924
Geburtsort: Neubeuern
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 19.02.1944
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Dolmen
Andreas Dörfler ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Costermano.

Nachname: Gubanski
Vorname: Stephan
Dienstgrad: Rottenführer
Geburtsdatum: 20.06.1924
Geburtsort: Oberhausen
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 19.02.1944
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Vogrinchi
Stephan Gubanski ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Costermano.

Nachname: Maierhofer
Vorname: Franz
Dienstgrad: Unterscharführer
Geburtsdatum: 01.04.1921
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 19.02.1944
Franz Maierhofer ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Costermano.

Nachname: Muratowitsch
Vorname: Mustafa
Dienstgrad: Hilfswilliger
Geburtsdatum: 1917
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 19.02.1944
Mustafa Muratowitsch ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Costermano.

Nachname: Schoger
Vorname: Hans
Dienstgrad: Jäger
Geburtsdatum: 01.01.1924
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 19.02.1944
Hans Schoger ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Costermano.

Nachname: Thellmann
Vorname: Wilhelm
Dienstgrad: Sturmmann
Geburtsdatum: 19.09.1919
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 19.02.1944
Wilhelm Thellmann ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Costermano.

If somobedy want to have more precise data is it possibily to get on cemetery Fogliano (Comune di Sagrado).

regards
Darko

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