DavidFrankenberg wrote: 21 years of peace indeed.
None of these wars provoked any genocide or millions of deads.
:roll:
None of these countries would have provoked a WW nor a gneocide. Only Hitler was mad enough to provoke it.
a) You've got a lot of reading to do about the hostilities on the Balkan-Danube-Region...
b) you know about the war 1991-1995? Btw., one of my uncles fought in that war...
c) They would have fought a war within their capabilities.
SU didnt plan to invade Europe. Hitler planned to provoke a WW and to invade USSR, and he did it.
You guys don't have enough smileys....
Oh, so the Soviet Union was peaceful?
Tell me one reason why the soviet Union wouldn't have attacked europe, considering:
Post 41:
a) They attacked Poland & Finnland in 1939
b) They blackmailed Romania in 1940
c) They finances every communist uprising in europe and asia well into the 70's
Post 45:
d) They occupied half of europe after 1945
e) Their empire was based an ideology which had the goal of world domination.
f) Why was there a cold war between 1946 and 1990?
g) why did they violently shoot down all freedom movements in central-eastern europe?
Besides: Why did the new soviet tank, the T-34, have rubber tracks designed to move on german autobahns?
Why were the soviets basically incapable of stopping the german advance into europe because they were in an offensive position but not fully mobilized yet?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin%27 ... and_debate
You know what the difference is between a war over economic goals and a war over ideologies?
War over economic goals have an end.
Wars over ideologies are endless. They are crusades. Jihads.
There were millions of non-poles in Poland actually (like Ukrainians, Belrarus etc).
That's the point.
The Poles had in 1939 (do I have to do this over and over again)?
According to Wikipedia
35.100.000
27.127.790 Poles (catholics)
4.878.900 Ukrainians
1.088.100 Belarusians
807.300 Germans
1.193.400 czechs, lithunian, russians
3.510.000 jews
According to my own studies these numbers are wrong. But I have not finished these studies yet.
Poland back then was a young state. I ususally compare states to persons. A young person is insecure, agressive, albeit with good intentions, and often boundless. So where all new states in central-eastern, including Germany.
The poles had parts of their populations that were very anti-semitic, very anti-russian and very anti-german. They wanted to polonize the ukrainians and belarusians.
To describe to you where these polish sentiments came from, I would have to back way back and go miles off topic. But many new states had an old state as their identity, and there was an urge to reinstate that old, lost empire. The germans never got over that they lost the HRR. And the poles never git over that they lost Lithuania-Poland. The ukrainians never git over that their empire has been shattered by the mongols and were not "little russia" according to moscow. As you see, eastern europe was a mess.
I am a slav. I have been deeply into slavic studies. But that's a different topic.
But the loss of life in Poland is very hard to estimate, since you had two aggressors. Soldiers, that fight overseas, of course won't make babies. Dead soldiers nonetheless.
I would estimate the number of poles (omly catholics) killed due to the conditions that the germans put them in to at not higher than 800.000.
The rest is poles becoming victims of the SU, as you call it, war casualties and the lack of men, and reprisal against "Volksliste-Poles".
The jews of couse of a different story.
I am sad about the hostility between Hitler and Poland. Poland and Germany would have been perfect allies against the SU. It also would have had a psychological effect on all slavic nations, particilariliy in the east. A slavic-friendly Hitler would have won, IMO.
Mussolini didnt want a WW. He always tried to prevent Hitler's war. He failed.
That's new to me. But what's not new to me is that Hitler wanted to mediate between the danubian-slavic nations. He needed these nations for their national ressoucres. The Ustasha, that my grandfather was a part of, was too brutal. This was critizized by the germans since it created symoathy for the partisans. Hungary and Romania were on the brink of a war over transilvania.
Serbs were the lowest scum for Hitler
Bulgarians were basically unknown to him.
But Hitler did try to calm these parties down and keep the war there more civil.
Oh yes, it was. It was Hitler's Germany vs the world.
In 1945 it was. But you are aware that the allies also bombed hungarian and romanian cities?
Germany was just the power plant. Just like in WW1, where all the allies of Germany were more of a burden than a help.
His main objective was the defeat of the USSR. Not fighting partisan warfare in the f*** balkan mountains.
Germany's capacity to produce small arms was also limited. And they had to supply the romanians, bulgarians, croats, cetniks, partially hungarians and so on. They weakened Germany. The only thing were you are right: Germany was the strategic jackpot.
But it was not a war of Germany vs the World. It was a war over a f*** up peace after WW1 and a war between facism and communism, where the western allies interfered for reasons currently still unknown.
The Ostplan planned to starve and kill all non-german people except 12 millions whom were to serve as slaves for the Germans. Germans killed like 23 millions of people in like 3 years in USSR ("ost"). This was the application of the Ostplan. Hitler didnt want to conquer a city like Leningrad, he just wanted to starve its population to death. He succeeded in starving like 1 million of civilians there. He had the same plan for Moscow. He would have done so there, but he failed during the winter 41 to siege the city.
Hitler, Hitler, Hitler... you know the war was fought by people other than Hiter, right? I told you, some where routhless, some weren't. My grandfather was on the eastern front and always told me about the great cammeradery with the germans.
Did he want to starve Leningrad to death? Or just force it to surrender? How were the Generals involved?
The Finns defiitely let the russians pass a lot of the food transports through, that's for sure.
Btw. I am not trying to defend Hitler. All I'm saying is:
The Wehrmacht was 17,3 million people. They al had different feelings and personalities. They weren't programmed robots. The germans increasingly became sick of Hitler by the time they forced them to invade russia.
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Because he defeated Hitler ?
No, because he killed more people than Hitler. Do I really have to show you the numbers again?
Stalins gain of power: 1922
Census 1926: 147.027.915 citizens. 100.891.244 Russians, 29.018.187 Ukrainians, 4.983.240 Belarusians, 1.238.549 germans, 10.896.696 others
Census 1939 (January) 170.557.093 citizens. 99.591.520 Russians, 28.111.007 Ukrainians, 5.275.393 Belausians, 1.427.232 germans, 36.151.941 others
"Others" are primarily tartars and caucasians. (I mean the tribes like chechens)
Lets do the maths here.
Poles and russians are quite alike. Let's compare their birthrate between 1926 and 1931
Poland: 1926: 29.326.316
Poland 1939: 35.100.000 (+19.69%)
How the SU in 1939 should have looked
Russlans: 120.760.000 (- 21.680.000)
Ukrainians: 34.733.000 ( - 6.633.000)
Belarusians: 5.964.000 ( - 689.000)
Germans: 1.482.000 (- 55.000)
Look at the number of germans. fits very well. And the ukrainian death toll fits to the 6+ million of the holodomor.
Apparently, my assumption, that you can apply the polish pop-increase on the USSR, was correct.
So between 1926-1939, Josef Stalin cause the death of
29.057.000 russians, ukrainians, belarusian and germans.
So you're a little commie.
Wow. 100 years of mass murder, and you think Hitler is the only bad guy.
Then... Ok, boy, like I said, I saw yugoslavia in the 1980's. Every commie country had a problem with alcoholism, because life was to bland, empty and unbearable, that getting drunk was the only escape.
F**** a.
@wm
I hope you are a guy. Because then you and Frankie create the next generation of people I have to argue with