Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holocaust?

[CroGer]

@Daid Thompson

Am I supposed to take this guy seriously?

Yugoslavia was a very beautiful and pacific country before german reunification of 1989.



Just read and enjoy the rest of it:

@David Thompson

What insults?

btw. I try to keep the discussion ON TOPIC, while David Frankenberg constantely digresses, and turns this into a weird discussion about "Hitler".
The question here has nothing to do with Hitler.

Oh, you would like to talk about the Holocaust and WWII war crimes without mentionning Hitler ? That's original for the least.

@ David Frankenberg

Your ideas of the USSR are ludicrous. I just asked you: if Stalin had no desire to conquer europe, why did he conquer half of europe in 1945,

Maybe because Germany, and its allies agressed USSR the 22nd june 1941 ?

and why didn't the red army leave these countries when the people there revolted against the occupation?

Maybe because they didnt want to leave these countries which attacked USSR the 22nd june 1941 leading to the massacre of 25 millions of soviet peoples ?

-> Hungarian revolt of 1956
-> Prague Spring 1968

Some elements revolted risked their lives and lost... that's part of the game.

"It was because of Hitler"

No.

Absolutely : no Hitler in 1933 > no german agression 1941 > no soviet invasion 1944/5 > no soviet occupation 1944-1990.

And you don't understand what a genocide is. Your info about WW2 is low and your argumentation is irrational.

Unfortunately, some of your replys are so rediculous, that I could only answer them in ways that some here might interprete as "insults". You constantly digress and claim thing without any empirical data. You don't follow my argumentation.

Absolutely. I dont follow your argumentation.

example:
Why didn't I include jews into the number of poles killed? I wrote that I won't touch the Holocaust and I am estimating the number of non-jewish poles killed, according to my demographic studies. The killing of catholic poles is not part of the Holocaust.

What about the jewish poles ? What are your numbers about them ?

"Mousolini tried to warn the wolds"

Yep. He failed of course (unfortunately).

Historians attribute him like 15 millions of deads during like 30 years of gvt. It gives something like 0.5 million a year

Historians strongly disagree on the number of people killed by Stalin.

I gave you a volunteerly high estimate, as i thought you would go crazy if i wd give a moderate estimate.

Btw. my grandfather didn't fight for Hitler. He fought against communism.

Didnt you say he fought beside Hitler'' soldiers during the war ? Did he follow german orders, Hitler's orders ?

He tried to prevent what happened between 45-91.

What happened between 45-91 was the direct consequence of what he did between 1940-1945.

Today, more croats live outside of croatia than within croatia. Ask yourself why?

I guess you better ask them first. *

Croatia was once a properous part of the Habsburg empire. I have seen Yugoslavia in the 80's. It was like a time travel, going from the 1980's to the 1945.

Yugoslavia was a very beautiful and pacific country before german reunification of 1989.

Not a single former communist country has recovered yet from the damage that communism left in that country.

The damages were rather caused by the war provoked by the german reunification, the subsequent slovenian secession and croatian problem.

And a question:

What would the "international community" call it, if turkey would bomb the entire kurdish part of the middle east, to a point where 80% of all houses in residental eras are desrroyed, then violently expell all kurds from turkey into the rest of kurdistan in Syria&Iraq, kill about 20% of all turkish kurds in the process, and keep all kurds on low calories (560-1200) for 3 years, while all kurdsih PKK-members are used a forced labourers for 3 years? Would that be called a genocie?

I wd just say that's pretty bad, but still nothing compared to what Hitler did between 1939 and 1945.

Live long and prosper

Obviously you kow absolute nothing about the resistance in Austria which was even active before WWII.

The entire german resistance became active around 1938. The problem was that they could kill him since hey didn't want to turn him into a martyrer, and they had to get rid of his sucessors as well. After Stalingrad they tried to kill him several times and failed. The final chance was the 20th July 44-plot with the well known Valyrie-order.

Then there was the aleged resistance like Brecht, who was just a communist.

Btw, I also never heard of an "austrian resistance

[history1]

[...]

Obviously you kow absolute nothing about the resistance in Austria which was even active before WWII.

[...]
Btw, I also never heard of an "austrian resistance

Then you should start reading!
Here are some suggestions:
https://www.doew.at/erforschen/publikat ... atz-kagran
and then there are many volumes about the resistance and persecution of citizens of the different Austrian states during the Nazi dictatorship:
https://www.doew.at/erforschen/publikat ... ung?page=2

[David Thompson]

CroGer -- You asked:

@Daid Thompson

Am I supposed to take this guy seriously?

Your thoughts are your own, but if you want to post here, you must follow the forum rules.

[David Thompson]

An off-topic post from CroGer was removed.

[DavidFrankenberg]

[...]
Albeit this war was nonsensical, Germans fought hard for the sake of Hitler. Very few desertions happened. Looks like they believed their beloved Fürher.

How many do you consider "very few" exactly? Believed their beloved Führer? They swore on oath on him and were afraid of the punishment when being caught after desertion. A five minute lasting drum court and a bullet in your head for "desertion and showing fear in the face of the enemy" and you´re gone. And your family at home without maintenance!

30.000 deserted on 15 millions. That's few.

Disapointment and anger among german soldiers against him only raised with the era of the defeats : after Stalingrad.

Nonsense! Just one example of the many opponents of Hitlers regime and ideas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Schmid

[...]

Btw. I am not trying to defend Hitler. All I'm saying is:

The Wehrmacht was 17,3 million people. They al had different feelings and personalities. They weren't programmed robots. The germans increasingly became sick of Hitler by the time they forced them to invade russia.

I cant read in the spirit of millions of Germans. I can only state they followed him for the best and for the worst... When defeats never stopped, strangely (?) the germans began to question hilm a bit, but to be honest they questioned him 'just a bit'.[...]

Obviously you kow absolute nothing about the resistance in Austria which was even active before WWII.

You can find people like Anton Schmidt and others... but how many were they ? so few
The few who opposed Hitler were executed or jailed. The others had to keep quiet. In order to stay quiet, they followed Hitler's orders.
We have to face the truth. They remained silent until the era of defeats came : with Stalingrad, the Hitler's aura began to fall. We have to wait july 44 to see a plan to kill Hitler. But Germans stayed fathful, and the plan failed.
There was no demonstration against him under his rule. Maybe he was right : only jews were hostile to him and since he got them all out of the country or in the camps, there remain nobody to demonstrate against him.
Anton Schmidt was a true hero, but how many were like him ? So few. How many really tried to "kill the beast" ? Only one : Stauffenberg. I wd like to know how many statues the german people devoted to Stauffenberg after 1945. I guess very few.

[...]

There was also resistance among the germans of the genocides. The difference between Nazi Germany and the USA is, though: Nazi Germany was a totalitarian state. The USA is a democracy. There you can openly say "Boy, that sucks".

The USA didnt genocide anyone.
[...]

ROFL
Maybe not during WWII but during five (!) centuries before on the land they conquered!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... ndian_Wars

It is hard to talk about an amerindian genocide. Really, this has nothing to do with the jewish genocide.
Once again, give Hitler 3 more years, he wd have killed all jews... USA had centuries to genocide amerindians, and guess what ? they are still there.

[...]

@ David Frankenberg
Your ideas of the USSR are ludicrous. I just asked you: if Stalin had no desire to conquer europe, why did he conquer half of europe in 1945,

Maybe because Germany, and its allies agressed USSR the 22nd june 1941 ?

and why didn't the red army leave these countries when the people there revolted against the occupation?

Maybe because they didnt want to leave these countries which attacked USSR the 22nd june 1941 leading to the massacre of 25 millions of soviet peoples ? [...]

1. To defend your own country you don´t need to conquer others, just stop your troops on your countries border! But why does that remind me on a country which fights terrorism only oversea countries?
2. Please explain me when Poland or the CSSR did attack the Soviets in WWII!?

The Allies agreed to defeat and occupy whole Germany (at Yalta). They didnt want to repeat the 1918's error.

[CroGer]

[...]
Albeit this war was nonsensical, Germans fought hard for the sake of Hitler. Very few desertions happened. Looks like they believed their beloved Fürher.

How many do you consider "very few" exactly? Believed their beloved Führer? They swore on oath on him and were afraid of the punishment when being caught after desertion. A five minute lasting drum court and a bullet in your head for "desertion and showing fear in the face of the enemy" and you´re gone. And your family at home without maintenance!

30.000 deserted on 15 millions. That's few.

Disapointment and anger among german soldiers against him only raised with the era of the defeats : after Stalingrad.

Nonsense! Just one example of the many opponents of Hitlers regime and ideas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Schmid

[...]

Btw. I am not trying to defend Hitler. All I'm saying is:

The Wehrmacht was 17,3 million people. They al had different feelings and personalities. They weren't programmed robots. The germans increasingly became sick of Hitler by the time they forced them to invade russia.

I cant read in the spirit of millions of Germans. I can only state they followed him for the best and for the worst... When defeats never stopped, strangely (?) the germans began to question hilm a bit, but to be honest they questioned him 'just a bit'.[...]

Obviously you kow absolute nothing about the resistance in Austria which was even active before WWII.

You can find people like Anton Schmidt and others... but how many were they ? so few
The few who opposed Hitler were executed or jailed. The others had to keep quiet. In order to stay quiet, they followed Hitler's orders.
We have to face the truth. They remained silent until the era of defeats came : with Stalingrad, the Hitler's aura began to fall. We have to wait july 44 to see a plan to kill Hitler. But Germans stayed fathful, and the plan failed.
There was no demonstration against him under his rule. Maybe he was right : only jews were hostile to him and since he got them all out of the country or in the camps, there remain nobody to demonstrate against him.
Anton Schmidt was a true hero, but how many were like him ? So few. How many really tried to "kill the beast" ? Only one : Stauffenberg. I wd like to know how many statues the german people devoted to Stauffenberg after 1945. I guess very few.

[...]

There was also resistance among the germans of the genocides. The difference between Nazi Germany and the USA is, though: Nazi Germany was a totalitarian state. The USA is a democracy. There you can openly say "Boy, that sucks".

The USA didnt genocide anyone.
[...]

ROFL
Maybe not during WWII but during five (!) centuries before on the land they conquered!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... ndian_Wars

It is hard to talk about an amerindian genocide. Really, this has nothing to do with the jewish genocide.
Once again, give Hitler 3 more years, he wd have killed all jews... USA had centuries to genocide amerindians, and guess what ? they are still there.

[...]

@ David Frankenberg
Your ideas of the USSR are ludicrous. I just asked you: if Stalin had no desire to conquer europe, why did he conquer half of europe in 1945,

Maybe because Germany, and its allies agressed USSR the 22nd june 1941 ?

and why didn't the red army leave these countries when the people there revolted against the occupation?

Maybe because they didnt want to leave these countries which attacked USSR the 22nd june 1941 leading to the massacre of 25 millions of soviet peoples ? [...]

1. To defend your own country you don´t need to conquer others, just stop your troops on your countries border! But why does that remind me on a country which fights terrorism only oversea countries?
2. Please explain me when Poland or the CSSR did attack the Soviets in WWII!?

The Allies agreed to defeat and occupy whole Germany (at Yalta). They didnt want to repeat the 1918's error.

You were asked why the soviet union occupied whole central-eastern europe after the war, when they had no plan to conquer europe.

Quote from the book "Sturmgewehr!" that I am currently reading:

The "Communist Party of Germany" (DKP), founded in december 1918 and dominated by the "Bolshevist communist party" - RKP - tried, supported by the soviets, to convince the german workmen of the communist ideals - with the higher goal being world dominance - , win them over for their fight against the capitalist government, to form - after the elimination of poland - a confederation.

The german revolution was of vital importance for the soviets. Stalin unequivocally expressed this in a letter to Thalheimer, the leader of the KPD and editor of the party-panphlet "Rote Fahne":

"The coming revolution in Germany is the most important world event of our days. The victory of the revolution in Germany will be of bigger importance for the proletariat in Europe and America than the russian revolution six years ago. The victory of the german proletariat will undoubtably relocate the world revolution from Moscow to Berlin"

[...]
As soon as November 1918, Karl Liebknecht, cofounder of the KPD, send a telegram to the VI. allrussian congress of soviets, [...], with the following content: "In Germany, flames of the holy fire simutaniously shoot aloft in hundreds of places. This revolution will save the russian revolution from all blows and shatter the foundations of the capitalist world"

[...]
The intended military support (for the german revolution) failed solely because of the inability of the red army, to break through Poland.

In the 21 communist revolts between november 1918 and november 1923, 838 Reichswehr- and Freikorps-soldiers and 3901 revolutionaries were killed. The three amateurish right-wing revolts, the Kapp-Putsch from the 13th to the 17th of november, the Buchrucker-Putsch on the first october of 1923 and the Hitler-Putsch on the 8th and 9th November 1923 were less bloody. Only during the Hitler-Putsch, 4 policemen and 16 putschists were killed

Stalin originally wanted a confederation with Germany to conquer the world.

George Friedman on Barbarossa:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=568QwhgRCwc


German Resistance to Nazism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_re ... _to_Nazism


Nazi Germany was a totalitarian state. They even recorded how many sheets of paper was bought, so that nobody could print leaflets, which was the problem of the resistance group "White Rose".

The Gestapo had agents that went to german villages and acted like allied soldiers, to find out who would be willing to support the allies.

Criticizing the war was a crime, possibly punshiable by death

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrkraftzersetzung

I find this discussion very hypocritical.
The Nato attacks country after country, these are all democracies, yet - who is protesting? The Nato used depleated uranium at least since 1999.

https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/ ... -0012.html

Who is protesting against it?
The majority will always look out for themselves. There was resistance in Nazi Germany. Probably not enough, but it exsisted.
The problem the resistance had before 1938 was that they had no plan of how to get rid of the entire Nazi government with one strike.
Killing Hitler in 1938-1941 would have made him a martyrer.

Among those in the resistance were some of the most important figures of the german Army, including the chief of the german military intelligence, Wilhelm Canaris.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris

Now you've got a problem winning a war, when the chief of your military intelligence wants you dead.

Soldiers were forbidden to tell anybody about the massacres in eastern europe. But of course, a lot still did. But this had a tragic effect: many german soldiers feared the soviet revenge. There was no way out of the war, it was either victory or total defeat.
For the germans, the war was only over in 1949.

[history1]

David Frankenberg wrote

30.000 deserted on 15 millions. That's few.

And though every single one risked his life with the desertion. True or false?

The few who opposed Hitler were executed or jailed. The others had to keep quiet.

it seems you´re not willed to accept the facts or to understand what exactly dictatorship means?
- Johanna Cupal (24), beheaded because supporting her brother Ludwig Cupal, a foreign agent in Bohemia and Morawa, with food and cigarettes. Same fate met her brother Michael while their mother died in prison.

Cupal-Johanna.png (109.27 KiB) Viewed 517 times

- Rose Wöhrer (37), died in Auschwitz on Dec. 7th 1943, because she got convicted due to "suspicion of subersive activities"

Woehrer-Rose.png (110.84 KiB) Viewed 517 times

- Franz Winkler (35), offended the Führer while being drunk. Result: 6 month concentration camp Buchenwald!

Winkler-Franz.png (119.26 KiB) Viewed 517 times

Source (for all cases):Individual resistance @ http://www.doew.at/personensuche?category=3&gestapo=1
You see, even for talking while being drunk you got thrown in camps were the risk to perish was extremely high. Does such conviction depress the rest of the imhabitants? Very likely!

There was no demonstration against him under his rule. Maybe he was right : only jews were hostile to him and since he got them all out of the country or in the camps, there remain nobody to demonstrate against him.

Only Jews? What fatal error? No person from above is Jewish as there is none in the, actually, list of 1567 people in the database "Individual Resistance" of Gestapo victims .
For the opposition actions of Jews follow this link:
http://www.doew.at/personensuche?category=4&gestapo=1

How many really tried to "kill the beast" ? Only one : Stauffenberg.

Seems you ignorance is bigger then assumed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Georg_Elser

It is hard to talk about an amerindian genocide. Really, this has nothing to do with the jewish genocide.[...] USA had centuries to genocide amerindians, and guess what ? they are still there.

How many of the people engaged in the American genodice were convicted for crimes against humanity, etc? And guess what? I see DAILY Jews in my work too, they are still here. Many are from Israel retourning in their homeland but there are a lot from the former Sovietunion too.

[ljadw]

[...]
Albeit this war was nonsensical, Germans fought hard for the sake of Hitler. Very few desertions happened. Looks like they believed their beloved Fürher.

How many do you consider "very few" exactly? Believed their beloved Führer? They swore on oath on him and were afraid of the punishment when being caught after desertion. A five minute lasting drum court and a bullet in your head for "desertion and showing fear in the face of the enemy" and you´re gone. And your family at home without maintenance!

30.000 deserted on 15 millions. That's few.

Disapointment and anger among german soldiers against him only raised with the era of the defeats : after Stalingrad.

Nonsense! Just one example of the many opponents of Hitlers regime and ideas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Schmid

[...]

Btw. I am not trying to defend Hitler. All I'm saying is:

The Wehrmacht was 17,3 million people. They al had different feelings and personalities. They weren't programmed robots. The germans increasingly became sick of Hitler by the time they forced them to invade russia.

I cant read in the spirit of millions of Germans. I can only state they followed him for the best and for the worst... When defeats never stopped, strangely (?) the germans began to question hilm a bit, but to be honest they questioned him 'just a bit'.[...]

Obviously you kow absolute nothing about the resistance in Austria which was even active before WWII.

You can find people like Anton Schmidt and others... but how many were they ? so few
The few who opposed Hitler were executed or jailed. The others had to keep quiet. In order to stay quiet, they followed Hitler's orders.
We have to face the truth. They remained silent until the era of defeats came : with Stalingrad, the Hitler's aura began to fall. We have to wait july 44 to see a plan to kill Hitler. But Germans stayed fathful, and the plan failed.
There was no demonstration against him under his rule. Maybe he was right : only jews were hostile to him and since he got them all out of the country or in the camps, there remain nobody to demonstrate against him.
Anton Schmidt was a true hero, but how many were like him ? So few. How many really tried to "kill the beast" ? Only one : Stauffenberg. I wd like to know how many statues the german people devoted to Stauffenberg after 1945. I guess very few.

[...]

There was also resistance among the germans of the genocides. The difference between Nazi Germany and the USA is, though: Nazi Germany was a totalitarian state. The USA is a democracy. There you can openly say "Boy, that sucks".

The USA didnt genocide anyone.
[...]

ROFL
Maybe not during WWII but during five (!) centuries before on the land they conquered!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... ndian_Wars

It is hard to talk about an amerindian genocide. Really, this has nothing to do with the jewish genocide.
Once again, give Hitler 3 more years, he wd have killed all jews... USA had centuries to genocide amerindians, and guess what ? they are still there.

[...]

@ David Frankenberg
Your ideas of the USSR are ludicrous. I just asked you: if Stalin had no desire to conquer europe, why did he conquer half of europe in 1945,

Maybe because Germany, and its allies agressed USSR the 22nd june 1941 ?

and why didn't the red army leave these countries when the people there revolted against the occupation?

Maybe because they didnt want to leave these countries which attacked USSR the 22nd june 1941 leading to the massacre of 25 millions of soviet peoples ? [...]

1. To defend your own country you don´t need to conquer others, just stop your troops on your countries border! But why does that remind me on a country which fights terrorism only oversea countries?
2. Please explain me when Poland or the CSSR did attack the Soviets in WWII!?

The Allies agreed to defeat and occupy whole Germany (at Yalta). They didnt want to repeat the 1918's error.

You were asked why the soviet union occupied whole central-eastern europe after the war, when they had no plan to conquer europe.

Quote from the book "Sturmgewehr!" that I am currently reading:

The "Communist Party of Germany" (DKP), founded in december 1918 and dominated by the "Bolshevist communist party" - RKP - tried, supported by the soviets, to convince the german workmen of the communist ideals - with the higher goal being world dominance - , win them over for their fight against the capitalist government, to form - after the elimination of poland - a confederation.

The german revolution was of vital importance for the soviets. Stalin unequivocally expressed this in a letter to Thalheimer, the leader of the KPD and editor of the party-panphlet "Rote Fahne":

"The coming revolution in Germany is the most important world event of our days. The victory of the revolution in Germany will be of bigger importance for the proletariat in Europe and America than the russian revolution six years ago. The victory of the german proletariat will undoubtably relocate the world revolution from Moscow to Berlin"

[...]
As soon as November 1918, Karl Liebknecht, cofounder of the KPD, send a telegram to the VI. allrussian congress of soviets, [...], with the following content: "In Germany, flames of the holy fire simutaniously shoot aloft in hundreds of places. This revolution will save the russian revolution from all blows and shatter the foundations of the capitalist world"

[...]
The intended military support (for the german revolution) failed solely because of the inability of the red army, to break through Poland.

In the 21 communist revolts between november 1918 and november 1923, 838 Reichswehr- and Freikorps-soldiers and 3901 revolutionaries were killed. The three amateurish right-wing revolts, the Kapp-Putsch from the 13th to the 17th of november, the Buchrucker-Putsch on the first october of 1923 and the Hitler-Putsch on the 8th and 9th November 1923 were less bloody. Only during the Hitler-Putsch, 4 policemen and 16 putschists were killed

Stalin originally wanted a confederation with Germany to conquer the world.

George Friedman on Barbarossa:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=568QwhgRCwc


German Resistance to Nazism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_re ... _to_Nazism


Nazi Germany was a totalitarian state. They even recorded how many sheets of paper was bought, so that nobody could print leaflets, which was the problem of the resistance group "White Rose".

The Gestapo had agents that went to german villages and acted like allied soldiers, to find out who would be willing to support the allies.

Criticizing the war was a crime, possibly punshiable by death

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrkraftzersetzung

I find this discussion very hypocritical.
The Nato attacks country after country, these are all democracies, yet - who is protesting? The Nato used depleated uranium at least since 1999.

https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/ ... -0012.html

Who is protesting against it?
The majority will always look out for themselves. There was resistance in Nazi Germany. Probably not enough, but it exsisted.
The problem the resistance had before 1938 was that they had no plan of how to get rid of the entire Nazi government with one strike.
Killing Hitler in 1938-1941 would have made him a martyrer.

Among those in the resistance were some of the most important figures of the german Army, including the chief of the german military intelligence, Wilhelm Canaris.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris

Now you've got a problem winning a war, when the chief of your military intelligence wants you dead.

Soldiers were forbidden to tell anybody about the massacres in eastern europe. But of course, a lot still did. But this had a tragic effect: many german soldiers feared the soviet revenge. There was no way out of the war, it was either victory or total defeat.
For the germans, the war was only over in 1949.

A lot of wrong statements :

someone as Canaris was NOT involved in the 20 july conspiracy .

could you give the names of the democratic states that were attacked by Nato ?

of course Stalin had no desire to conquer Europe (he was not Stupid) :he occupied eastern Europe because it was occupied by Germany .

[CroGer]

A lot of wrong statements :

someone as Canaris was NOT involved in the 20 july conspiracy .

Canaris was arrested on 23 July 1944 on the basis of the interrogation of his successor at Military Intelligence, Georg Hansen.[91] Schellenberg respected Canaris and was convinced of his loyalty to the Nazi regime, even though he had been arrested.[92] Hansen admitted his role in the 20 July plot but accused Canaris of being its "spiritual instigator".[93] No direct evidence of his involvement in the plot was discovered, but his close association with many of the plotters and certain documents written by him that were considered subversive led to the gradual assumption of his guilt. Two of the men under suspicion as conspirators who were known in Canaris' circle shot themselves which incited activity from the Gestapo to prove he was, at the very least, privy to the plan against Hitler.[93]

It doesn't really matter if he was a member or not. What is important is that there were dissidents. The dissidents often were part of the Wehrmacht.

Here is another dissident:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer

David Frankenberg spoke of "demonstrations". The third Reich was not a democracy, speaking out about the third Reich led to imrisonment, often in concentration camps, and death. Hitler surrounded himself with yes-men, politicians and military officers who were in any way, shape or form opposed were either ostracized or isolated.

The state was "gleichgeschaltet".

could you give the names of the democratic states that were attacked by Nato ?

Yugoslavia, 1999.

Shall we open up the topic of the US politics in the middle east?

Many people know that what is going on there is wrong. You have the right to protest. But who does protest? Most people simply don't care. Isn't that the justification of the islamic terrorists? "You killed our women and children, now we kill yours"?
Again we are digressing here.

But if you were a german citizen in 1941. What would you have done?

of course Stalin had no desire to conquer Europe (he was not Stupid) :he occupied eastern Europe because it was occupied by Germany .

The soviet union occupied czechoslovakia because it was occupied by Germany. Could you please explain that logic to me?

[ljadw]

There is no proof that Canaris disagreed with Hitler during the war .Already long before the 20 july attack,Canaris was fired at the instigation of the military because the Abwehr was incompetent and corrupt .

Yugoslavia was not democratic in 1999.

The SU had lost a lot of men to expel the Germans from eastern Europe and it had no intention to leave eastern Europe as ,following the SU, this would result in the return of the old anti Russian regimes .

CZ was the only democratic ally of the Allies , the rest were dictatorships of which most all had collaborated with Germany and did thus deserve no sympathy . CZ was occupied and became communist in 1948 because a non communist CZ was a danger for the SU .Stalin had two options :

let the interests of CZ prevail over the interests of the SU and let CZ become capitalist

or

let the interests of the SU prevail over the interests of CZ and transform CZ in a communist satellite state .

What do you think some one with an elementary knowledge of Realpolitik would choose ?

Stalin was a lot of negative things : a ...., a ......, etc,etc, but no one can accuse him of being a naive do-gooder .


When in Italy and France there was a risk that the communists could win the elections, the CIA intervened, in CZ it was the Red Army and the Cheka .

[ljadw]

About dissidents in the Third Reich : they existed, but their number was meaningless :the majority of the German KZ prisoners were common criminals , as were the majority of the prisoners of the Gulag . In both cases, the people supported the dictator .As people mostly do .

[CroGer]

There is no proof that Canaris disagreed with Hitler during the war .Already long before the 20 july attack,Canaris was fired at the instigation of the military because the Abwehr was incompetent and corrupt .

Yugoslavia was not democratic in 1999.

The SU had lost a lot of men to expel the Germans from eastern Europe and it had no intention to leave eastern Europe as ,following the SU, this would result in the return of the old anti Russian regimes .

CZ was the only democratic ally of the Allies , the rest were dictatorships of which most all had collaborated with Germany and did thus deserve no sympathy . CZ was occupied and became communist in 1948 because a non communist CZ was a danger for the SU .Stalin had two options :

let the interests of CZ prevail over the interests of the SU and let CZ become capitalist

or

let the interests of the SU prevail over the interests of CZ and transform CZ in a communist satellite state .

What do you think some one with an elementary knowledge of Realpolitik would choose ?

Stalin was a lot of negative things : a ...., a ......, etc,etc, but no one can accuse him of being a naive do-gooder .


When in Italy and France there was a risk that the communists could win the elections, the CIA intervened, in CZ it was the Red Army and the Cheka .

Yugoslavia wasn't a democracy in 1999... :roll:

There seem to be a lot of USSR-sympathizers here. I am quite baffled by this. Some of my friends are from former communist countries. They all agree that the time of the iron curtain was horrible for every country involved.

I am also surprised about the Stalin-apoligizers here. Now most books I read are in german and quoting from these books would take me time, I have to copy & translate the passages.
But I have taken the time to copy & translate a passage in the book Sturmgewehr, where it became clear, that Stalin wanted a "world revolution", and a communist confederation with Germany in 1923, with the elimination of the polish state.

Part of my time as a student of history was reading the protocols of the conference of Yalta. Stalin didn't want to "liberate" europe, he wanted to occupy it, and he demanded a part of europe as the price for the soviet sacrifice.



Btw.

Some people have accused me of being "right wing". I despise nationalism. But I also despise communism. I despise all kinds of collectivist political systems, and every "we vs them"-thinking.

You know what the difference is between wars for economic interest and wars for ideologies? Wars for economic reasons are limited. Wars for ideologys are unlimited.

[history1]

About dissidents in the Third Reich : they existed, but their number was meaningless

Opponents of Hitler´s regime are now considered meaningless? Is that why they were murdered in concentration camps, because of their unimportance? Obviously the Gestapo didn´t follow your logic, right contrary!

:the majority of the German KZ prisoners were common criminals [...] In both cases, the people supported the dictator .As people mostly do .

What an upper BS. You claim that most German KL inmates were simple criminals, provide a proof for your claim according the forum rules. How can a normal thinking person think that someone thrown in a camp were he gets tortured, starved, beaten and even killed is supporting the regime which is responsible for this? People mostly support the dictator? Here is smoething to read for you, I hope you understand what it is about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear

[wm]

But I have taken the time to copy & translate a passage in the book Sturmgewehr, where it became clear, that Stalin wanted a "world revolution", and a communist confederation with Germany in 1923, with the elimination of the polish state.

Stalin didn't want a world revolution. He purged all the world revolutionists, including the world-revolutionists-in-chief Trosky early on. Still being in the "nice Stalin" phase he didn't exterminate them, but thankfully it was a correctable mistake (as in communists-on-communists violence should be encouraged).
Although he didn't mind a world revolution, he knew it was not going to happen so spending the meagre Soviet resources on its enabling was wasteful and pointless.
The theory said anyway that all the developed capitalist countries was going to be destroyed shortly by their internal contradictions so there was no need to invade them. But the small countries without powerful friends - it was an entirely different story, they were just asking for it.

[DavidFrankenberg]

You were asked why the soviet union occupied whole central-eastern europe after the war, when they had no plan to conquer europe.

Quote from the book "Sturmgewehr!" that I am currently reading:

The "Communist Party of Germany" (DKP), founded in december 1918 and dominated by the "Bolshevist communist party" - RKP - tried, supported by the soviets, to convince the german workmen of the communist ideals - with the higher goal being world dominance - , win them over for their fight against the capitalist government, to form - after the elimination of poland - a confederation.

The german revolution was of vital importance for the soviets. Stalin unequivocally expressed this in a letter to Thalheimer, the leader of the KPD and editor of the party-panphlet "Rote Fahne":

"The coming revolution in Germany is the most important world event of our days. The victory of the revolution in Germany will be of bigger importance for the proletariat in Europe and America than the russian revolution six years ago. The victory of the german proletariat will undoubtably relocate the world revolution from Moscow to Berlin"

[...]
As soon as November 1918, Karl Liebknecht, cofounder of the KPD, send a telegram to the VI. allrussian congress of soviets, [...], with the following content: "In Germany, flames of the holy fire simutaniously shoot aloft in hundreds of places. This revolution will save the russian revolution from all blows and shatter the foundations of the capitalist world"

[...]
The intended military support (for the german revolution) failed solely because of the inability of the red army, to break through Poland.

In the 21 communist revolts between november 1918 and november 1923, 838 Reichswehr- and Freikorps-soldiers and 3901 revolutionaries were killed. The three amateurish right-wing revolts, the Kapp-Putsch from the 13th to the 17th of november, the Buchrucker-Putsch on the first october of 1923 and the Hitler-Putsch on the 8th and 9th November 1923 were less bloody. Only during the Hitler-Putsch, 4 policemen and 16 putschists were killed

Stalin originally wanted a confederation with Germany to conquer the world.

Stalin like all communists wanted the world to be communist. Does it mean that he planned to conquer whole Europe in june 41 like Hitler's propaganda was claiming by the time ? No.
If Stalin conquered eastern Europe in 1944/5, it's not because he planned it... but because of the treatrous attack of his "ally" Hitler in june 41.
Stalin didnt conquer eastern Europe alone, but with the help and agreement of USA and GB, the Allies.

George Friedman on Barbarossa:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=568QwhgRCwc


German Resistance to Nazism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_re ... _to_Nazism


Nazi Germany was a totalitarian state. They even recorded how many sheets of paper was bought, so that nobody could print leaflets, which was the problem of the resistance group "White Rose".

The Gestapo had agents that went to german villages and acted like allied soldiers, to find out who would be willing to support the allies.

Criticizing the war was a crime, possibly punshiable by death

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrkraftzersetzung

I wd not say say Germany was a totalitarian state, buy an hitlerian state. Hitler didnt permit any resistance, any opposition to his will and power. Furthermore, like every country, a state of war includes particularly strong punishment for civilians or militaries who may disunite the country.

I find this discussion very hypocritical.
The Nato attacks country after country, these are all democracies, yet - who is protesting? The Nato used depleated uranium at least since 1999.

https://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/ ... -0012.html

Who is protesting against it?

I disagre with nato policy, but i dont see your point here.

The majority will always look out for themselves. There was resistance in Nazi Germany. Probably not enough, but it exsisted.
The problem the resistance had before 1938 was that they had no plan of how to get rid of the entire Nazi government with one strike.
Killing Hitler in 1938-1941 would have made him a martyrer.

Killing Hitler would just have avoided 50 millions deads. There was a german resistance, but it was so weak that we have to wait july 44 for the firts serious attack against him.

Among those in the resistance were some of the most important figures of the german Army, including the chief of the german military intelligence, Wilhelm Canaris.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris

Now you've got a problem winning a war, when the chief of your military intelligence wants you dead.

Canaris was not a resistant... He served Hitler and his policy for years.... Like Stauffenberg and others, when Hitler began to lose his war, they questioned his authority and wanted him to be dead.

Soldiers were forbidden to tell anybody about the massacres in eastern europe. But of course, a lot still did. But this had a tragic effect: many german soldiers feared the soviet revenge. There was no way out of the war, it was either victory or total defeat.
For the germans, the war was only over in 1949.

Maybe there was an other way : no war, no Hitler.