Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holocaust?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
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Post by David Thompson » 25 May 2005 16:46

von Loringen -- You said:
Western Allied military formations behaved just as badly, and often worse than German ones. That's it. I did not, and am not attempting to argue that the overall crimes committed by the Western Allies in WWII exceed or equal those of Germany in scope, considering all activities by all government institutions.
This is a research section of the forum. We expect you to back up your claims with citations to sources. If you can't or won't do it, don't bother posting here.

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Post by von Loringen » 25 May 2005 16:58

My apologies. I was unaware of the page reference rule. To all those following this thread, please bear with me as it will take several days for me to find all of the individual page references.

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are "allied crimes really equal to "Holocaust

Post by lavella » 27 May 2005 18:56

"
David Thompson wrote:von Loringen -- You said:
Western Allied military formations behaved just as badly, and often worse than German ones. That's it. I did not, and am not attempting to argue that the overall crimes committed by the Western Allies in WWII exceed or equal those of Germany in scope, considering all activities by all government institutions.
This is a research section of the forum. We expect you to back up your claims with citations to sources. If you can't or won't do it, don't bother posting here.
Bonsoir à tous




After reading many posts on that topic ,i’m upset and it’s a puzzle to me how many of participants in this forum try insidiously to put on the same level alleged atrocities committed by western allied forces and those (real ones) by germans
“The difference however, was that the cases of Allied troops shooting prisoners were random and spontaneous, (and often after atrocities on allied soldiers or discovering the horrors of KL) while the Waffen SS often held to a definite policy of liquidating prisoners. During the Ardennes offensive elements of the Leibstandarte murdered American prisoners at Malmédy after they had surrendered. Even earlier in 1940, the man responsible for this atrocity, Wilhelm Mohnke, had led the massacre of British prisoners at Wormhoudt in France. The killing of allied prisoners in the West destroyed the myth that the Waffen SS only reserved its excesses for the Eastern front, where the murder of Soviet POWs was a regular feature of the fighting.”

as to atrocities and mass murdes of civilians could anyone give examples in which american or english army units would be implicated?


as for france only , incidentally , I’ve many friends in south western france where old people recall the numerous massacres committed by” Das Reich “in 44 (tulle and oradour ,among others)where many hundred of innocent civilians (men women and children )were shot , burnt or hanged all that in retaliation of some germans killed in ambush with Maquis (resistance men )

Not to mention all over occupied Europe the long list of massacres committed by waffen ss in behalf of their roughless and merciless nazi ideology

I hope that will put an end on that topic

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Re: are "allied crimes really equal to "Holocaust

Post by R.M. Schultz » 27 May 2005 20:04

lavella wrote:After reading many posts on that topic ,i’m upset and it’s a puzzle to me how many of participants in this forum try insidiously to put on the same level alleged atrocities committed by western allied forces and those (real ones) by germans
Isn’t there a word for people like that?

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Post by john h » 27 May 2005 20:12

lavella you asked for examples of attrocities committed by the allies look on this thread http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html i think you may find it quite intresting

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Post by David Thompson » 27 May 2005 21:09

For extensive discussions of allied war crimes, real, alleged and imagined, see

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53295

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Post by lavella » 27 May 2005 23:59

john h wrote:lavella you asked for examples of attrocities committed by the allies look on this thread http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html i think you may find it quite intresting
John H
I know very well GDuncan site ,it's exhaustive and well documented and unfortunately not in full agreement with you................
As for POW's massacre see the words in red in my post ,OK, all camps committed excess in violation with war laws, (on a far lower level for Alliés )
But in my post, I was only enphasizing the massacres of civilians and in GDuncan's , in the countries where Alliés were involved (Belgium , France , Italy , Germany ) I found only 2 scarce examples
- 1) in Sicily where a crazy major shot to death civilians suspected of looting a soap factory......he was immediately sent to the front where he was reported. KIA

2) Near Cassino (Rampages in Cassino ), involving Morrocoan soldiers (the most ferocious and
ruthless warriors incorporated in French Expeditionnary Corps )in rapes and murders of italian civilians ........some of the guilties found were promptly judged and sentenced to death by order of General Juin (in command of FEC )

A tragic anecdote about them

IN 1944 my late father served as a young staff sergeant in CEF and after 3 days of heavy fights near Gothic line, one of his Goumier (morrocoan infantryman) presented him a barbed wire shaped into necklace , adorned with human ears , saying "Hey mister officer that's a present from Germans I killed "

-so, John H which other examples did U find ,quoted in GDuncan's................?


David
OK David

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Post by john h » 29 May 2005 00:12

lavella my friend whether you agree with me or not is of no concern to me as a barrister i look into both sides of an argument you asked a question i gave you a web site to look at whether you agree with it is also no concern to me but you say you want cases on gduncans of civilians being massacred by the allies my friend try looking under dresden even churchill said the destruction of dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of allied bombing page 18 of 52

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Re: Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holoca

Post by Topspeed » 29 May 2005 08:22

Are Allied "Crimes" really equal to the Holocaust?
I think this whole question is a bit strange to start with.

What happened in Europe in 1939-45 is just a phase of the political and historical events that had taken place before it.

Soviets started killing kulaks a lot before any jew was being harrassed in Germany.

Record high unemployement and inflation in Germany in thirdies.

Jews that had lived for centuries in Germany were redying themselves to take back the promissed land.

Several european ethnic entities claimed their independence just in the beginning of the century after WW I ( Estonia and Finland amongst them ).

The atmosphere back then was totally different.

Industrialization was at it's peek too..this caused really big changes...in households, transport etc.

Then the two rivalist political experiments...nazism and communism caused very bad results.


Back to the starting question:

Coventry, Tihvinä, Dresden ( Hiroshima )

Tihvinä was one of the biggest town where Ingrians used to live ( S-W from St.Petersburg)...they were killed and rest sent to Siberia ( labelled as kulaks or enemies of the state ) because of their ethnic background. Naturally there is no one to speak about their rights cause they are practically all dead. This happened in 1920-35.
Several thousands of them sought asylym in Finland in the 20ies, but after the war all 50 000 + of them were sent back to USSR..large part of the were executed and rest went to gulags.

Latter part of your question:

So don't tell me there was no prejudism among soviets. Blacks in USA got civil rights only after Martin Luther King's work in the 60ies.

In longer perspective the only comparable event to holocaust is the extermination of the Indians in America. The end result is even more horrifying: when Jews were able to return to the "promissed land" Indians lost their "promissed land".
Slavery of the black people was not any better event in this respect.

Conclusion:

Western allies shooting some parachuted germans and mistreatment of POWs in dirtholes was not comparable to Holocaust.
Soviet allies systematical annihilation of races in USSR is comparable to Holocaust, but scaled possibly slightly lower or least to a longer period so it doesn't appear as bad. Rapings of the german women and their imprisonment in Siberia is not quite a holocaust..but not far from it.

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Post by lavella » 29 May 2005 18:49

john h wrote:lavella my friend whether you agree with me or not is of no concern to me as a barrister i look into both sides of an argument you asked a question i gave you a web site to look at whether you agree with it is also no concern to me but you say you want cases on gduncans of civilians being massacred by the allies my friend try looking under dresden even churchill said the destruction of dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of allied bombing page 18 of 52
That's curious how people ,short of arguments concerning "Alliés war atrocities" , always and only, stubbornly refer to Dresde (a tragical and useless mistake ,I concede ) Hambourg or Hiroshima
Terror bombing was a tactic first used by Germans , aimed at civilians , to break enemy's moral. Don't forget Guernica ,Varsovie , Rotterdam , London , Coventry , Belgrade ....to name ones and much more on... had Nazis potential abilities ( weapons and aircrafts )to do so .

My question ,you were unable to answer nor G.Duncan's did :

Was there in ETO one example of massacre against civilians implicating regular Allied units (not mentionning USAF or RAF ) or an allied organized policy of retaliation by mass murdering ?
in comparision with countless crimes perpetrated , with official agreement , by SS or Wehrmacht men

and ,Please ,answer to my question

Salut et Fraternité

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Post by DetectorCollector » 29 May 2005 19:14

If you would say in war time, no, nothing can be compared with the German holocaust war crime. Even the Crusaders in the Middle Ages can't be compared to the German crimes against humanity. Stalin has more kills on his name as Hitler only he had more time to do it.

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Post by Topspeed » 29 May 2005 21:25

You are right, but all this was possible only with more advanced technologies...unfortunately.

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Post by john h » 29 May 2005 21:49

lavella you ask me for specific orders given to the allies to massacre civillians well if you consider the russians as allies how about the gang rape and murder of women and children some as young as 8 year old at nemmersdorf also at metgethen also gumbinnen goldap ebenrode all the attrocities are detailed in the eastern documentation section of the german federal archive at koblenz also the murder of 42 ss soldiers at nahrendorf near hamburg the british desert rats shot these men after they had surrended

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Post by David Thompson » 29 May 2005 23:50

john h -- (1) If you are going to discuss specifics the section rules require sources. Please read the rules carefully. They are posted for all to see at:

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

(2) As for the events you mentioned, no one has been able to come up with orders for those crimes, which have been frequently discussed here. Nor has anyone shown that such crimes were a command policy in any allied army. It is generally thought that there is a great difference between crimes committed by individuals and small bands of men, and crimes committed as a matter of national policy. The former is an ordinary criminal act, the latter is attributable to the national leaders. Every army of every country has criminals in it, but they aren't necessarily the leaders.

For previous discussions of rapes committed by Soviet troops, and whether they were the result of orders, see:

Russian raping of liberated Jewish girls and women
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=24649
Rapings committed by the Soviet soldiers
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23744
Ehrenburg
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23999
Information about pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Berlin
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=5240
German rape victims find a voice at last
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=5244
"They raped every German female from eight to eighty"
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=2063
Proof of pre-planned Soviet mass rapes in Berlin
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=2580
Red Army rape row
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1987
Nemmerdorf example of pre-planned Soviet atrocity
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=1697
German Male survivors after Berlin and Eastern Front
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=46747
Should Russia seek apology for Soviet war crimes in Germany?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=10459
Russians in Germany
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=6782
Eye-witness account of Soviet atrocities on German civilian
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=5242
Soviet atrocities on German civilians were pre-planned
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=3283

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Post by john h » 03 Jun 2005 20:04

sorry david my reply took so long but the source of my information is on the thread i posted earlier gduncan/massacres.html page 18 of 52

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