Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

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Ostmark
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Post by Ostmark » 24 Jun 2002 20:16

Roberto wrote:bla bla bla


I'm not sure i would count Wolfgang Benz as a valid source - a "Professor for Antisemitism research" at the technical university of Berlin - which in turn are sponsored by various international holocaust lobbygroups. A man who makes his living by keeping the memory of the Holocaust alive.

Im guessing you would find this site and the information in it (http://www.jrbooksonline.com/polish_atrocities.htm) biased und unvalid aswell?

since everything is so biased, and only you know the whole truth its useless to have a discussion with you. Especially since you discredit everyting as being unbiased, propaganda etc. Im guessing that the only valid sources in yer eyes are the sources the Holocaust-industry came up with?

Im sure you will give me a witty reply based upon some research by the Wiesenthal Center or something unbia$ed like that eh?

I have no intentions to carry this discussion further and neither will the author, cause i have no time or energy to counter Herr Roberto- i'll just let the people here judge by themselves.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 24 Jun 2002 20:57

Ostmark wrote:
Roberto wrote:bla bla bla


A rather feeble argument. Let's see what follows

Ostmark wrote:I'm not sure i would count Wolfgang Benz as a valid source - a "Professor for Antisemitism research" at the technical university of Berlin - which in turn are sponsored by various international holocaust lobbygroups.


An acknowledged historian, subject, like every other historian of note, to a peer control that would keep him from producing nonsense even if he were inclined to that.

Ostmark wrote:A man who makes his living by keeping the memory of the Holocaust alive.


A historian who, like every other historian, makes his living keeping the memory of historical events alive.

I see you have a problem with “international holocaust lobbygroups”, whatever you mean by that. Can you show me which of them are supposed to sponsor the Institute for Anti-Semitism Research at the Berlin Technical University?

And what about the Statistisches Bundesamt of the Federal Republic of Germany, whose 1958 figures (meanwhile considered to high by historians like Rüdiger Ovemans of the Institute for Military History Research in Freiburg) show the fattest dog of your “anonymous author” – the 3.5 million ethnic Germans allegedly killed by the Poles after 1945 – for what it is? Were they also sponsored by “international holocaust lobbygroups”?

Ostmark wrote:Im guessing you would find this site and the information in it (http://www.jrbooksonline.com/polish_atrocities.htm) biased und unvalid aswell?


Don’t know, I’ll have a look. I’m not denying Polish atrocities, in case you haven’t noticed. I just don’t like bloated propaganda figures.

Ostmark wrote:since everything is so biased, and only you know the whole truth its useless to have a discussion with you. Especially since you discredit everyting as being unbiased, propaganda etc.


No, my dear Sir. Only what I can demonstrate on hand of acknowledged sources to be flawed. Which is the case with the figures proposed by your anonymous author.

Ostmark wrote: Im guessing that the only valid sources in yer eyes are the sources the Holocaust-industry came up with?


No. Democratic criminal justice authorities and renowned, impartial historians are those whose conclusions I listen to. The “Holocaust industry”, whatever is meant by that, I don’t care about.

Ostmark wrote: Im sure you will give me a witty reply based upon some research by the Wiesenthal Center or something unbia$ed like that eh?


No, the SWC are a source that I rarely if ever refer to.

Ostmark wrote: I have no intentions to carry this discussion further and neither will the author, cause i have no time or energy to counter Herr Roberto- i'll just let the people here judge by themselves.


Do that, my friend. A considerable part of the audience are likely to see you and your anonymous author as sources not to be taken seriously. With good reason.

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 24 Jun 2002 21:01

Ostmark wrote:Im guessing you would find this site and the information in it (http://www.jrbooksonline.com/polish_atrocities.htm) biased und unvalid aswell?


How can we possibly think that it is biased considering the publication details:
Polish Atrocities
Against the German Minority in Poland
Edited and published by order of the Foreign Office,
Volk und Reich Verlag Berlin, 2nd. revised ed., 1940, 311 pp.


Or this quote from the site describing the content:
A White Nationalist Literary Resource


/Marcus

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Ostmark
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Post by Ostmark » 25 Jun 2002 04:24

Roberto wrote:bla bla bla


Ok, i might have overreacted - but Besserwisser's, and you really act(ed) like one, tend to get on my nerves. That said i would like to continue.

So yer not denying the Polish attrocities against ethnic Germans, good.

How about they idea that it was THOSE events that caused the war - regardless if the poles killed 60000 germans or *just* 6000 germans.

We can discuss the numbers on a later stage when i've got more "UNBIASED" sources on my hand.

Marcus Wendel wrote:bla bla bla


What are you getting at? Is the information there false just because the author of the page is a so called white nationalist? Well hurrah, let's discredit everyone whos not a good democrat. I guess we should only trust the good ol' liberals, right Wendel?

And what about the "Volk und Reich Verlag"? Let's just speculate that the numbers Roberto pointed out were right. What would really be the differance? The attrocities happend and tenthousands (or thousands, depending of what you will belive) of Germans since 1918 were killed by Polacks just because their heritage, culture and language.

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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » 25 Jun 2002 07:42

Ostmark wrote:What are you getting at? Is the information there false just because the author of the page is a so called white nationalist? Well hurrah, let's discredit everyone whos not a good democrat. I guess we should only trust the good ol' liberals, right Wendel?


You asked if we thought the source to be "biased", so don't get upset when you don't appreciate my answer.

/Marcus

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 25 Jun 2002 20:43

Ostmark wrote:
Roberto wrote:bla bla bla


Ok, i might have overreacted - but Besserwisser's, and you really act(ed) like one, tend to get on my nerves.


The sentiment is mutual.

Ostmark wrote:So yer not denying the Polish attrocities against ethnic Germans, good.

How about they idea that it was THOSE events that caused the war - regardless if the poles killed 60000 germans or *just* 6000 germans.


It sucks, because it is unsupported by any evidence. Killing of ethnic Germans started when Hitler's attack on Poland was already into its third day. The "Bromberger Blutsonntag" was 3 September 1939, not 31 August. And even if it had been the latter, Adolf had decided to annihilate Poland long before. This he told his generals on 22 August 1939:

Vernichtung Polens im Vordergrund. Ziel ist die Beseitigung der lebendigen Kräfte, nicht die Erreichung einer bestimmten Linie. Auch wenn im Westen Krieg ausbricht, bleibt Vernichtung Polens im Vordergrund. Mit Rücksicht auf Jahreszeit schnelle Entscheidung.
Ich werde propagandistischen Anlass zur Auslösung des Krieges geben, gleichgültig, ob glaubhaft. Der Sieger wird später nicht danach gefragt, ob er die Wahrheit gesagt hat oder nicht. Bei Beginn und Führung des Krieges kommt es nicht auf das Recht an, sondern auf den Sieg.
Herz verschliessen gegen Mitleid. Brutales Vorgehen. 80 Millionen Menschen müssen ihr Recht bekommen. Ihre Existenz muss gesichert werden. Grösste Härte. Schnelligkeit der Entscheidung notwendig. Festen Glauben an den deutschen Soldaten. Krisen nur auf Versagen der Nerven der Führer zurückzuführen.
Erste Forderung: Vordringen bis zur Weichsel und bis zum Narew. Unsere technische Überlegenheit wird die Nerven der Polen zerbrechen. Jede sich neu bildende lebendige polnische Kraft ist sofort zu vernichten. Fortgesetzte Zermürbung. Neue deutsche Grenzführung nach gesunden Gesichtspunkten, evtl. Protektorat als Vorgelände. Militärische Operationen nehmen auf diese Überlegungen keine Rücksicht. Restlose Zertrümmerung Polens ist das militärische Ziel. Schnelligkeit ist die Hauptsache. Verfolgung bis zur völligen Vernichtung.
Überzeugung, dass die deutsche Wehrmacht den Anforderungen gewachsen ist. Auslösung wird nocht befohlen ...


Source of quote: Ernst Klee / Willi Dressen, "Gott mit uns”: Der deutsche Vernichtungskrieg im Osten there is yet another summary of Hitler's statements at the afternoon meeting on the Obersalzberg on 22.8.1939. The document referred to is Nuernberg Document 1014-PS, IMT, Volume XXVI.

My translation:

The annihilation of Poland is the priority. The goal is the removal of living forces, not the reaching of a certain line. Even if war should break out in the West, the annihilation of Poland remains the priority. Considering the time of the year, a quick decision is required.
I shall provide for a propagandistic reason to unleash the war, regardless of whether it is credible or not. The victor is not asked at a later stage whether he told the truth or not. In beginning and conducting a war, what matters is not right but victory.
Close heart to pity. Brutal proceeding. 80 million people must get their right, Their existence must be assured. Greatest harshness. Quick decision is necessary. Firm faith in the German soldier. Crises must only be attributed to commanders having lost their nerves.
First requirement: Advance to the Vistula and the Narev. Our technical superiority will break the nerves of the Poles. Every new Polish force forming must be immediately annihilated. Continuous attrition. New German frontier according to healthy criteria, eventually a protectorate as a buffer area. Military operations must not take these thoughts into consideration. The utter shattering of Poland is the military goal. Pursuit until complete annihilation.
Conviction that the German Wehrmacht is up to the task. Unleashing will yet be ordered ...


Ostmark wrote:We can discuss the numbers on a later stage when i've got more "UNBIASED" sources on my hand.


Good idea. A wartime Nazi propaganda source featured by a "White Nationalist Literary Resource" is not likely to convince.

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How many killed on the 3rd in Bromberg?

Post by Karl » 26 Jun 2002 13:42

Am 8. September 1939 prägte die Deutsche Rundschau den Begriff "Bromberger Blutsonntag". Die nationalsozialistische Propaganda benutzte diesen Begriff
und verzehnfachte die Gesamtzahl der Opfer unter den Volksdeutschen in Polen, die noch in einer Dokumentation des Auswärtigen Amtes vom November 1939 mit 5437 Toten angegeben worden war, Anfang Februar 1940 auf 58000.

http://www.h-ref.de/dk/krieg/polen/bromb/brmb.shtml

So eh, Roberto. It means that 5437 Germans were murdered in all of Poland on the 3rd, not just Bromberg?

So how many Germans murdered in Bromberg on the 3rd?

Maybe Scott knows :lol:

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Question to Ostmark

Post by viriato » 26 Jun 2002 13:53

To Ostmark:

Where have you got the map of the polish territorial aims? Do you know of any web sites and books on the subject?

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Re: How many killed on the 3rd in Bromberg?

Post by Scott Smith » 26 Jun 2002 16:20

Karl wrote:So how many Germans murdered in Bromberg on the 3rd?

Maybe Scott knows :lol:

Sorry, Karl. I don't know. Atrocity tableau and body-counts is not my "bag." It is enough that there were atrocities at all for the Germans to have reacted against the Poles with energy. The Americans certainly would have. It is a tragedy that a simple border dispute took on the form of a crusade.
:)

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Roberto
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Re: How many killed on the 3rd in Bromberg?

Post by Roberto » 26 Jun 2002 18:53

Scott Smith wrote:
Karl wrote:So how many Germans murdered in Bromberg on the 3rd?

Maybe Scott knows :lol:

Sorry, Karl. I don't know. Atrocity tableau and body-counts is not my "bag." It is enough that there were atrocities at all for the Germans to have reacted against the Poles with energy.


How come those atrocities occurred starting 3 September 1939, when on 22 August of that year Adolf had told his generals:

Vernichtung Polens im Vordergrund. Ziel ist die Beseitigung der lebendigen Kräfte, nicht die Erreichung einer bestimmten Linie. Auch wenn im Westen Krieg ausbricht, bleibt Vernichtung Polens im Vordergrund. Mit Rücksicht auf Jahreszeit schnelle Entscheidung.
Ich werde propagandistischen Anlass zur Auslösung des Krieges geben, gleichgültig, ob glaubhaft. Der Sieger wird später nicht danach gefragt, ob er die Wahrheit gesagt hat oder nicht. Bei Beginn und Führung des Krieges kommt es nicht auf das Recht an, sondern auf den Sieg.
Herz verschliessen gegen Mitleid. Brutales Vorgehen. 80 Millionen Menschen müssen ihr Recht bekommen. Ihre Existenz muss gesichert werden. Grösste Härte. Schnelligkeit der Entscheidung notwendig. Festen Glauben an den deutschen Soldaten. Krisen nur auf Versagen der Nerven der Führer zurückzuführen.
Erste Forderung: Vordringen bis zur Weichsel und bis zum Narew. Unsere technische Überlegenheit wird die Nerven der Polen zerbrechen. Jede sich neu bildende lebendige polnische Kraft ist sofort zu vernichten. Fortgesetzte Zermürbung. Neue deutsche Grenzführung nach gesunden Gesichtspunkten, evtl. Protektorat als Vorgelände. Militärische Operationen nehmen auf diese Überlegungen keine Rücksicht. Restlose Zertrümmerung Polens ist das militärische Ziel. Schnelligkeit ist die Hauptsache. Verfolgung bis zur völligen Vernichtung.
Überzeugung, dass die deutsche Wehrmacht den Anforderungen gewachsen ist. Auslösung wird nocht befohlen ...


Source of quote: Ernst Klee / Willi Dressen, "Gott mit uns”: Der deutsche Vernichtungskrieg im Osten there is yet another summary of Hitler's statements at the afternoon meeting on the Obersalzberg on 22.8.1939. The document referred to is Nuernberg Document 1014-PS, IMT, Volume XXVI.

My translation:

The annihilation of Poland is the priority. The goal is the removal of living forces, not the reaching of a certain line. Even if war should break out in the West, the annihilation of Poland remains the priority. Considering the time of the year, a quick decision is required.
I shall provide for a propagandistic reason to unleash the war, regardless of whether it is credible or not. The victor is not asked at a later stage whether he told the truth or not. In beginning and conducting a war, what matters is not right but victory.
Close heart to pity. Brutal proceeding. 80 million people must get their right, Their existence must be assured. Greatest harshness. Quick decision is necessary. Firm faith in the German soldier. Crises must only be attributed to commanders having lost their nerves.
First requirement: Advance to the Vistula and the Narev. Our technical superiority will break the nerves of the Poles. Every new Polish force forming must be immediately annihilated. Continuous attrition. New German frontier according to healthy criteria, eventually a protectorate as a buffer area. Military operations must not take these thoughts into consideration. The utter shattering of Poland is the military goal. Pursuit until complete annihilation.
Conviction that the German Wehrmacht is up to the task. Unleashing will yet be ordered ...


Looks like the "reaction" preceded the atrocities ...

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Tsk Tsk

Post by Karl » 26 Jun 2002 19:21

Now , now Scott, you know better then that. You know as well as I do that Sept 1 was no reaction, but aggression (but that's not the point anyway!).

Ciao! 8)

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Post by Karl » 26 Jun 2002 19:24

Looks like the "reaction" preceded the atrocities ...


Yes, yes. That is uncontested and that is not why I started this thread. I am only interested in the incident itself.

No one has a clue how many Germans were murdered at Bromberg on the 3rd? :?

Bye!

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 26 Jun 2002 19:46

Karl wrote:
Looks like the "reaction" preceded the atrocities ...


Yes, yes. That is uncontested and that is not why I started this thread. I am only interested in the incident itself.

No one has a clue how many Germans were murdered at Bromberg on the 3rd? :?

Bye!


Less than 200, if I well remember. The details are in a book called Der Kriegsausbruch 1939, by Christian Zentner in Ullstein Verlag. I read it a long time ago and don't have it with me anymore. Amazon doesn't have it and it's probably out of print, but you lose nothing asking your favorite bookstore about it.

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Re: Tsk Tsk

Post by Scott Smith » 27 Jun 2002 05:23

Karl wrote:Now , now Scott, you know better then that. You know as well as I do that Sept 1 was no reaction, but aggression (but that's not the point anyway!).

I would say the aggession against the German minorities began in 1919 with Versailles, and by 1939 little provocation at all would be necessary to enrage Germany. Military force was used to settle the Danzig issue which was a line drawn in the sand by the Western powers. Atrocities and all the rest is window dressing.
:)

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Post by Karl » 27 Jun 2002 07:34

Atrocities and all the rest is window dressing.


Whoa. Hold me down Donna! You are actually admitting that Hitler's moves to the East a la Lebensraum (LMAO!!! :P ) was down and out simple aggression? That any atrocity stories used by the Reich were pretexts?

I must have misunderstood something... :lol:

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