Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 6854
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Aug 2011 08:14

To go back to a much earlier point.

Earlier in this thread it was stated that there is a list of 358 named German dead at Bromberg.

We now have a claim that "7,000 of them could be found, but only 5,600 of them identified."

If these 5,600 were identified, do we have a list of their names?

As regards missing - between the wars the Poles cross-posted Ukrainian conscripts, so that they did their military service in the west, while Poles from the west often served in units in the east. It seems entirely possible that the Poles also had German conscripts do their military service in the east. Has anyone investigated the possibility that many of the reportedly missing young German men had fallen into Soviet hands in late September 1939 as a result?

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3673
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 15 Aug 2011 12:03

MajorT,

7,000 of the 13,000 missing & dead were found out to be alive until 7 February 1940.

Which means that only 6,000 missing and dead were still to be confirmed dead or alive as of 7 February 1940. And Graeberzentrale figures say about 3315 dead and 1796 still missing (in total 5111). Which means that Graeberzentrale figures do not contradict those fifth-hand figures from 7 February 1940. They are simply more accurate.

The figure of Graeberzentrale was reported later than 7 February 1940. That's why the number of Graeberzentrale is smaller (5111 compared to ca. 6000). Several hundreds of the missing were found alive in between.

And it seems that you are confusing casualties from entire Poland with casualties from Bydgoszcz. :wink:

The figure 358 has nothing to do with other figures, since it refers to Bydgoszcz only - not entire Poland.
It seems entirely possible that the Poles also had German conscripts do their military service in the east.
The reason of doing this was to maintain a certain percentage of Poles in each unit. Otherwise some eastern units would have over 50% of Ukrainians / Belarussians in their ranks, which would decrease their combat value.

But this is of not much importance since most of military units which had been stationing in the east during peacetime, were anyway transported to the west after mobilization & concentration in August / September of 1939. I am talking for example about divisions and brigades which had their peacetime garrisons in the east.

But there was a quite significant number of Germans serving in KOP (Border Defense Corps) in the East.

Many of those were certainly captured, killed or murdered by the Red Army.

Plus also interned German civilians were transported to the East, where they could found themselves "trapped" in the Soviet occupation zone, which might explain why the Graeberzentrale figures still list 996 missing civilians.

Those missing civilians could be alive, but "trapped" somewhere in the Soviet occupation zone. And that's why they could be hard to "find". For sure Soviets exchanged many info with their German allies, but still exchange of info between 2 occupation zones must have been harder than obtaining info within their own occupation zone.

====================================

Michael,
That shows how careful the German investigators were. They were carrying out an investigation, not making propaganda.
But it also shows how carefully later German propaganda exploitet that "innocence" of investigators.

Everyone with unknown cause of death was anyway judged as "murdered" by Nazi propaganda. :lol:
Many of the killed and missing (937) were soldiers of the Polish army of German nationality. It is obvious that they died while serving in the ranks of the Polish army and fighting against German and Soviet invaders.
It is not at al obvious.

Given that in the lead-up to the German invasion a spy mania raged in Poland and all ethnic German citizens were suspected of being spies and saboteurs, it is most likely that as soon as the German invasion began all the ethnic Germans in the Polish armed forces were arrested as suspected traitors.

Some may have been executed immediately.

Others may have been marched off as prisoners into the interior, and then executed when the advancing German forces threatened to overwhelm the retreating Polish columns. Yet others may have survived their imprisonment and were liberated by the advancing Germans.

However many ethnic German members of the Polish armed forces were killed, we can be reasonably certain that they were executed or lynched by other Polish soldiers as suspected traitors.

Many Polish units collapsed under the impact of the German attack, and their members wantered aimlessly over the countryside. Some of those members could have been ethnic Germans, which would account for the reports of ethnic Germans in Polish military uniform wandering around the countryside. Any such picked up by Polish forces were summarily executed, either as saboteurs in disguise or as deserters.
No.

There were some 11,000 - 14,000 ethnic Germans fighting in the Polish army during September 1939.
it is most likely that as soon as the German invasion began all the ethnic Germans in the Polish armed forces were arrested as suspected traitors.
Several thousands ethnic German reservists were mobilized in the very last days of August 1939.

You think that someone would bother to mobilize them just to arrest them several hours later?! :roll:
a spy mania raged in Poland and all ethnic German citizens were suspected of being spies and saboteurs,
Your alleged "spy mania" did not prevent Poland from mobilizing several thousands ethnic German reservists in the very last days and hours of August - when war was already certain. In September mobilization continued.
you are confusing the role of the Graeberzentrale with that of the Wehrmachtuntersuchungsstelle.

The role of the Graeberzentrale was simply to count the bodies and identify them, so that records could be kept and next of kin informed. It was not an investigative body, and had no function of determining whether a crime had been committed.

That is why the Graeberzentrale did not record causes of death for so many of the bodies it found and recorded.

By contrast, the Wehrmachtuntersuchungsstelle was a judicial investigative body, with the task of determining whether crimes had been committed, and if so, who had committed them.

So there were two German investigations. First the Graeberzentrale located the bodies of deceased ethnic Germans, counted, identified and recorded them. Then the Wehrmachtuntersuchungsstelle investigated the causes of theiur deaths, to determine whether any crime had been committed.
Where can I find documents of the Wehrmachtuntersuchungsstelle from the Polish campaign!? :roll:
The investigations by the Wehrmachtuntersuchungsstelle, based on interrogations of ethnic German civlian survivors and captured Polish personnel,
So "interrogations" of bribed pro-Nazi civilians & forcing testimonies of innocent Poles by torturing them.

This is a wrong, unprofessional and unreliable way of investigating causes of death.

They should have carried out autopsies of all the corpses. Simple as that.
confirmed the figures calculated by the Graeberzentrale, and showed that over 5000 ethnic Germans had died, most of them by execution.
The Graeberzentrale says about 3315 dead and 1796 missing - not about over 5000 dead.

There is a difference between being missing e.g. in the Soviet occupation zone and being dead.

Secondly - as I wrote above, methods that you described are unreliable.

Thirdly - where can I find this alleged figure? Does it even exist or you invented it?

Of course I am interested in finding documents which allegedly state this number. Not books.
I suggest reading the works of Alfred de Zayas
Maybe something more specific? Which of his works exactly? Which page of that work?

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8824
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by michael mills » 15 Aug 2011 14:00

Another source is this one:

Jürgen Runzheimer, Bromberger Blutsonntag, in: Wolfgang Benz: "Legenden, Lügen, Vorurteile. Ein Wörterbuch zur Zeitgeschichte", München: dtv 1992; pages 47–49.

Runzheimer shows that there is absolutely no proof of any provocation by German agents in Bromberg.

It should be pointed out that Wolgang Benz, the editor of the volume in which Runzheimer's article appears, is a rabid philo-Semite, the head of the Institut fuer Antisemitismusforschung at the Free University of Berlin, and as such cannot be accused of making propaganda in support of National Socialist Germany.

We can be absolutely certain that the above book is not biassed in favour of Germany; no book by Wolfgang Benz seeks to exculpate German actions during the Second World War. By contrast, all the official works published in Poland are biassed, and have the aim of exculpating the Polish soldiers and civilians who killed ethnic Germans in Bydgozcz on 3-4 September 1939.

Accordingly, if an article by a staunchly anti-Nazi German states that there was no provocation in Bydgoszcz by German agents, that any firing heard was by panicked Polish soldiers, that any Polish soldiers killed or wounded by rifle fire in the city of Bydgoszcz were vicitms of panicked Polish soldiers firing on each other by mistake, then I see no reason to disbelieve it, since the author of the article is not biassed in favour of Germany.

The book by de Zayas to consult is:

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3673
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 15 Aug 2011 14:04

Double post. This one can be deleted.
Last edited by Peter K on 15 Aug 2011 14:07, edited 2 times in total.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8824
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by michael mills » 15 Aug 2011 14:06

Another source is this one:

Jürgen Runzheimer, Bromberger Blutsonntag, in: Wolfgang Benz: "Legenden, Lügen, Vorurteile. Ein Wörterbuch zur Zeitgeschichte", München: dtv 1992; pages 47–49.

Runzheimer shows that there is absolutely no proof of any provocation by German agents in Bromberg.

It should be pointed out that Wolgang Benz, the editor of the volume in which Runzheimer's article appears, is a rabid philo-Semite, the head of the Institut fuer Antisemitismusforschung at the Free University of Berlin, and as such cannot be accused of making propaganda in support of National Socialist Germany.

We can be absolutely certain that the above book is not biassed in favour of Germany; no book by Wolfgang Benz seeks to exculpate German actions during the Second World War. By contrast, all the official works published in Poland are biassed, and have the aim of exculpating the Polish soldiers and civilians who killed ethnic Germans in Bydgozcz on 3-4 September 1939.

Accordingly, if an article by a staunchly anti-Nazi German states that there was no provocation in Bydgoszcz by German agents, that any firing heard was by panicked Polish soldiers, that any Polish soldiers killed or wounded by rifle fire in the city of Bydgoszcz were vicitms of panicked Polish soldiers firing on each other by mistake, then I see no reason to disbelieve it, since the author of the article is not biassed in favour of Germany.

The book by de Zayas to consult is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wehrma ... _1939-1945

The work received international acclaim, and cannot be dismissed as propaganda.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3673
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 15 Aug 2011 14:07

Double post. You can delete this one.
Last edited by Peter K on 15 Aug 2011 14:21, edited 2 times in total.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8824
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 12:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by michael mills » 15 Aug 2011 14:19

I analysed the theses of Chincinski in September last year.

Here again is my analysis:
The thesis of Chincinski may be summarised as follows:

1. In the months before the start of the German-Polish War, some 8-10,000 young men of the ethnic German minority in Poland were formed into sabotage groups and given training as such, all under the noses of the Polish security forces, in a period of war psychosis when the German minority was under suspicion and subject to intense scrutiny by their Polish neighbours, who were quick to report any hint of suspicious activity.

2. That during the period before the outbreak of the war, when the alleged sabotage groups were forming and being trained, the Polish security forces were unable to identify and neutralise those groups, despite the fact that the German minority was being subjected to intense scrutiny by their Polish neighbours. Even though the Polish security forces arrested leaders and members of ethnic German political organisations, they were unable to identify them as trained saboteurs; the alleged 8-10 thousand trained saboteurs remained invisible.

3. After the outbreak of war, despite the large number of alleged saboteurs, there was no successful sabotage by them. Successes claimed by German propaganda after the Polish defeat were largely imaginary.

Chincinski appears to explain the Polish failure to identify and capture the alleged saboteurs before the outbreak of war and the failure of the alleged saboteurs to actually carry out any sabotage on the basis of incompetence. The Polish security authorities did not catch any of the supposed 8-10 thousand saboteurs before the outbreak of war because they were incompetent or impeded by the Polish justice system; the 8-10 thousand alleged saboteurs did not achieve anything because they were incompetent teenaged amateurs.

I would like to suggest a more rational explanation; the Polish authorities did not identify and arrest any of the alleged 8-10 thousand saboteurs, and the alleged 8-10 thousand saboteurs did not carry out any successful sabotage, simply because the 8-10 thousand saboteurs were imaginary, they did not exist.

Certainly there were in Poland ethnic German political organisations, many of which openly proclaimed their allegiance to Germany and a desire for the return to German rule of the territories that had been transferred to Poland after the First World War. As Chincinski says, many members of those organisations were arrested before the outbreak of war, but none could be defintiely identified as trained saboteurs. Why could they not be identified as trained saboteurs? Because they were not trained saboteurs preparing for action; their support for Germany was purely verbal.

The actions of ethnic Germans who supported Germany after the entry of German forces do not suggest planned sabotage actions by trained personnel; rather they suggest enthusiastic amateurs coming out to welcome the German forces and simply getting in their way. The course of events suggests that there were no trained saboteurs among the ethnic German population of Poland, even among those who were hoping for a German invasion.

The few successful acts of sabotage that were carried out at the beginning of the German invasion were most probably carried out by small squads of German commandos under the command of the Abwehr, ie members of the German armed forces. The situation was obfuscated after the German victory because numbers of members of the ethnic German minority claimed to have carried out actions in support of the German armed forces; however, such claims of successful sabotage were boastful exaggerations, as Chincinski himself confirms. (Such boastful exaggeration was a common phenomenon; just think of all the Frenchmen who after the Allied reconquest claimed to have been members of La Resistance).

So the most likely interpetation of the situation is this:

In the months leading up to the outbreak of war, there were no trained saboteurs among the German minority in Poland, certainly not 8-10 thousand of them. Such a large number could not possibly have gone undetected. At most there were members of ethnic German organisations who expressed verbal support for Germany, and hence were suspected of being "saboteurs".

After the outbreak of the war, there was no real sabotage carried out by members of the ethnic German minority in Poland, despite subsequent claims by some of them. What sabotage was carried out was performed by German commando units dropped behind Polish lines.

It is obvious that what Chincinski is doing is perpetuating the Polish chauvinist myth that was invented in the first days of the German-Polish War, namely that the Polish defeat was due to wide-spread treason on the part of the ethnic German minority (and also of the Jewish and Ukrainian minorities in Eastern Poland). That myth was generated because of Polish embarrassment at the quick defeat of their armed forces, and a psychological inability to accept that the much-vaunted Polish cavalry was no match for a modern, technologically advanced army.

If the alleged 8-10 thousand ethnic German saboteurs did not exist, how to account for the 2-3 thousand members of the ethnic German minority who were killed as "saboteurs" in the first days of the war?

Most probably the same factors were at work here as those described by Rossino in his book "Hitler Strikes Poland" as a major reason for the many summary executions of Polish civilians by members of the German armed forces. As he describes it, a German unit would come under fire while advancing through the countryside or into a town or village. German soldiers would then break into the nearest houses, and if they found any weapons in a house would summarily execute the people in it as suspected "partisans". Rossino considers, most probably correctly, that in most cases the executed Polish civilians were innocent; the weapons found were hunting rifles or revolvers kept for personal protection.

The phenomena probably occurred at the beginning of the German invasion. Polish units retreating in panic in the face of the massive German onslaught began to fire at each other, or came under fire from groups of German commandos that had been dropped behind Polish lines. Believing that they were under attack by ethnic german "saboteurs", the Polish soldiers broke into houses resided in by ethnic Germans, identified to them by Polish neighbours; if they found any weapons in a house, they executed the residents as suspected "saboteurs", and recorded the number of persons killed as "executed saboteurs".

As was the case with the Polish civilians executed by German soldiers, the ethnic Germans were probably innocent in the majority of cases; the weapons found were hunting rifles or revolvers kept for their personal protection. In Poland in 1939, as in the United States today, private ownership of firearms, by both ethnic Poles and ethnic Germans, was fairly common.

Thus, although units of the Polish armed forces may well have reported the executions of some one to two thousnad ethnic Germans as suspected "saboteurs", the likelihood is that most of the executed persons were innocent of any wrongdoing, apart from perhaps desiring their places of residence to be once more under German rule.

In any case, the figures used by Chincinski are very "rubbery". For example, the number of slain ethnic Germans admitted by him to have been entirely innocent varies from a maximum of of 3000 (the higher total of 5000 slain less the lower number of 2000 executed "saboteurs") down to a minimum of 1000 (the lower total of 4000 slain less the higher number of 3000 executed "saboteurs").

All in all, the work of Chincinski clearly falls within the long-standing effort of Polish chauvinist historiography, begun by the wartime Polish Government-in-Exile and continued by the post-war Communist regime, to justify the killing of around 5,000 members of the ethnic German minority in the first few days of the war, with the excuse that most of those killed were "saboteurs".

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3673
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 15 Aug 2011 14:21

Jürgen Runzheimer, Bromberger Blutsonntag, in: Wolfgang Benz: "Legenden, Lügen, Vorurteile. Ein Wörterbuch zur Zeitgeschichte", München: dtv 1992; pages 47–49.

(...)

Runzheimer shows that there is absolutely no proof of any provocation by German agents in Bromberg.
His book is from 1992. This means that it is an extremely old and outdated book on this subject.

Dr Tomasz Chincinski's works from 2005 - 2010 show that there are such proofs.

His books are based on German archival documents, some found only recently in German BA-MA archives.

Show me a book from 2010 or 2011 (published after most recent Chincinski's works) that supports the German version of events. Then we can start a discussion. Anything published before 2010 was challenged by Chincinski.

==============================================

Dr Tomasz Chincinski's works:

- "German sabotage in Poland in 1939 in the light of police and military documents of the II Republic of Poland and of special services of the III Reich. Part 1 (March - August 1939)", 2005

- "German sabotage in Poland in 1939 in the light of police and military documents of the II Republic of Poland and of special services of the III Reich. Part 2 (September 1939)", 2005

- "Hitler's Outpost. German sabotage in Poland in 1939", 2010:

Image
It should be pointed out that Wolgang Benz, the editor of the volume in which Runzheimer's article appears, is a rabid philo-Semite, the head of the Institut fuer Antisemitismusforschung at the Free University of Berlin, and as such cannot be accused of making propaganda in support of National Socialist Germany.

We can be absolutely certain that the above book is not biassed in favour of Germany
What does being a rabid philo-Semite have to do with being biassed against Poland?

Poles are not Semites - they are Slavs. Polish-German relations are not Semite-German relations.
By contrast, all the official works published in Poland are biassed,
I will leave this without comment, because such a comment would have to be insulting. 8O

May other forumers judge your mental condition basing on this statement of yours. 8O

But I have enough of your constant racially insulting comments like this one above.

I try not to insult anyone in this discussion - your racist slurs for Poles are constant.
that any firing heard was by panicked Polish soldiers,
Yes. Poles are always panicked. Germans never. Because Poles are coward sub-humans. 8O

I already said - there is no proof that there was any panic among Polish units in Bydgoszcz.
I analysed the theses of Chincinski in September last year.
You did not.

You only attempted a parody of analysis...

And only of those fragments from Chincinski's work that I was generous enough to translate for free.

Because you don't read any Polish - what a pity. :roll:
The book by de Zayas to consult is:

(...)

The work received international acclaim, and cannot be dismissed as propaganda.
Quote excerpts from this book which say about Bydgoszcz.

Or write here which pages of this book say about Bydgoszcz. You might also briefly write what they say.

Don't forget what sources he used.

BTW:

Your way of judging reliability of books basing only on 2 criteria - "propaganda" or "not propaganda" - is such a childish & extremely narrow. A book doesn't have to be "propaganda" to be wrong regarding some issues. 8O

A biassed selection of some sources or / and wrong interpretation of some sources is enough.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23289
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by David Thompson » 15 Aug 2011 15:51

Let's drop the personal remarks here and get back to a rational discussion of the topic. Our readers are intelligent enough to detect posters' agendas, and discount them. If they have the facts they want and need, they can make up their own minds about what's true and what's false.

thom
Member
Posts: 251
Joined: 12 Mar 2006 05:34
Location: Canada

Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by thom » 15 Aug 2011 16:39

7,000 of the 13,000 missing & dead were found out to be alive until 7 February 1940.
Domen, where did you get this information from??? Perhaps you carefully read my post on p. 25 again.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3673
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 15 Aug 2011 17:51

thom wrote:
Domen121 wrote:7,000 of the 13,000 missing & dead were found out to be alive until 7 February 1940.
Domen, where did you get this information from???
From here:
thom wrote: On the same day, Feb. 7th, there is a note in the files of the German Foreign Institute (Deutsches Auslandsinstitut, DAI) about a recent meeting held by Gauleiter Greiser. He stated in that meeting that there was new information on the number of deported or murdered Volksdeutsche. According to this new information, 13000 Germans (including 400 women) were missing in total. 7000 of them could be found, but only 5600 of them identified. The search for the remaining 6000 was still ongoing.
For me interpretation of "7000 of the missing could be found" from this note is clear.

What doubts do you have?

======================================

BTW:

Michael Mills liked to quote an example of Wlodzimierz Jastrzebski, who changed his views on events in Bydgoszcz from "Polish" to "German". Perhaps I should quote a reversed example of Edwin Erich Dwinger.

E. E. Dwinger is an author of propaganda book "Tod in Polen", in which he supported the "German" version. But later in his memoirs "Die zwölf Gespräche" he condemned his own work and partially confirmed the Polish version.

He did it yet before Günter Schubert published his book (which, as we know, confirms sabotage in Bydgoszcz).

Also Paul Leverkühn - during WW2 close associate of admiral Wilhelm Canaris (chef of Abwehr) - confirmed in his book that in 1939 German Intelligence had numerous agents recruited from local ethnic Germans in Poland.*

*Source: P. Leverkühn, Der Nachrichtendienst und die Spionageabwehr [in:] Bilanz des zweiten Weltkrieges,
Hamburg 1955; idem, Der Geheime Nachrichtendienst der deutschen Wehrmacht im Kriege, Frankfurt am Main 1957.

Also Peter Aurich - even though he denies such events particularly in Bydgoszcz - admits that Volksdeutsche were involved in sabotage-espionage actions and during the invasion also in sabotage behind the Polish lines.*

*Source: P. Aurich, Der deutsch-polnische September 1939, „Zweimonatsschrift Politische Studien” 1970

These are only some examples.
Dr Tomasz Chincinski's works:

- "German sabotage in Poland in 1939 in the light of police and military documents of the II Republic of Poland and of special services of the III Reich. Part 1 (March - August 1939)", 2005

- "German sabotage in Poland in 1939 in the light of police and military documents of the II Republic of Poland and of special services of the III Reich. Part 2 (September 1939)", 2005

- "Hitler's Outpost. German sabotage in Poland in 1939", 2010:
In Part 1 of his "German sabotage in Poland in 1939 in the light of police and military documents of the II Republic of Poland and of special services of the III Reich" Tomasz Chincinski describes for example how Volksdeutsche living in Poland were being recruited for German agents in period preceeding WW2 (March - August 1939):

You have to download the PDF document at the bottom of the linked website to download the bulletin.

http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal/pl/236/374 ... 00_zl.html

This is described in the chapter "Przygotowania: wiosna 1939 roku" ("Preparations: Spring of 1939").

Chincinski quotes Abwehr documents which reveal that only during May of 1939 Abwehr recruited for agents for sabotage activities 2465 Volksdeutsche from 62 towns and villages of Silesian Voivodeship.

In June of 1939 "combat groups" in Poznan Voivodeship already had 2077 Volksdeutsche from 49 towns & villages.

Abwehr was also recruiting agents among Ukrainian nationalists in Eastern Galicia since May of 1939.

Each of agents recruited in Poland from local civilians was designated by its own number - like for example agents VA 2804, VA 2821, VA 2810 or VA 2816 - info about whom are quoted in some of those documents.

These numbers (2465 from 62 localities and 2077 from 49 localities) indicate that they were recruiting rather larger groups, instead of just individual saboteurs in each settlement - because the number of settlements from which they recruited those agents is relatively small, but number of recruited agents is significant.

There were various kinds of organizations - main types were Sabotage and Kampf (Combat) organizations.

In the next chapter: "Rozwój liczebny i organizacyjny: lato 1939 roku" ("Numerical and organizational development: Summer of 1939") Chincinski describes further numerical and organizational development of "V Column".

For example:

In July of 1939 both sabotage and combat organizations in Silesian Voivodeship numbered yet 4474.

In July of 1939 only combat organizations in Poznan Voivodeship numbered 2324 (compared to 2077 in June).

Sabotage in Eastern Galicia (recruited from Ukrainian nationalists) reached the strength of 4000 men.
Last edited by Peter K on 15 Aug 2011 18:52, edited 4 times in total.

thom
Member
Posts: 251
Joined: 12 Mar 2006 05:34
Location: Canada

Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by thom » 15 Aug 2011 18:44

Domen you just read half of my post on page 25. I also wrote:
It is not clear from Greiser's note if the 7000 who were found were dead and if the 5600 were the identified dead.
The latter figure is very similar to that of the Gräberzentrale which refers to the identified dead and missing. The lists of the Gräberzentrale which were quoted on this forum several times do not include the unidentified cases.

Peter K
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3673
Joined: 12 Jul 2006 19:17
Location: Poland

Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 15 Aug 2011 18:46

Yeah - but I do not share your doubts. See above:
For me interpretation of "7000 of the missing could be found" from this note is clear.

What doubts do you have?
So why do you assume that "it is not clear"?

BTW - you didn't yet respond to my remark that this Greiser's note is a fifth-hand information.

thom
Member
Posts: 251
Joined: 12 Mar 2006 05:34
Location: Canada

Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by thom » 15 Aug 2011 18:50

Because only 5600 of the 7000 found could be identified.

thom
Member
Posts: 251
Joined: 12 Mar 2006 05:34
Location: Canada

Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by thom » 15 Aug 2011 18:52

Your figures are a fifth-hand information ... Graeberzentrale figures do not contradict those fifth-hand figures from 7 February 1940. They are simply more accurate.
Well, would you consider this information by nobody less than Gauleiter Greiser "fifth hand" (from the files of the Bundesarchiv, R57/824a)?
Greiser.jpg
And rely instead on a dubious list which was compiled after the war when a "card index" from Gräberzentrale was allegedly found in the county archive of Poznan? Who knows how complete this card index really is and if there was nothing "rearranged" after the war, particularly, as the results were first to be published in a biased Polish series in 1959. Also, as I told you before, Gräberzentrale's data is based on questionnaires, a method far away from completeness and in no way comparable to the methodologies and ressources of public registration offices which were, however, not yet working on Polish territory in 1939.

So if you continue to quote the Polish post-war "Gräberzentrale" list please always add a note that clarifies its true origin and its limits.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”