Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Sid Guttridge » 25 Aug 2011 10:14

Hi Michael,

While I accept many of your points, I would again suggest to you that it doesn't help your case to attach epithets like "unbiased" and "chauvinist" to various sources. These are subjective opinions of yours. Please just lay the evidence before us without editorializing. Then we can make up our own minds as to who or what is biased or chauvinistic.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Sid Guttridge » 25 Aug 2011 10:24

There is no doubt that some Polish Volksdeutsch were involved in guerrilla warfare in Poland.

The most obvious case is that of a raid mounted on 25 August 1939. (The following is from memory and so may not be accurate in every last detail, but I am sure the geist of it is).

When Italy declared it wasn't ready to join Germany in a war, at the very last minute Hitler postponed his attack on Poland from 25 August to 1 September. All German forces on the march were recalled except one raid mounted from western Slovakia by a sabotage unit of Polish Volksdeutsch. It blew up a railway tunnel inside Poland and killed two Polish railway workers. Thus, arguably, the first civilian fatalities of a military operation mounted for what became WWII were inflicted by Polish Volksdeutsche on Poles.

Peter K
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 25 Aug 2011 12:19

This is what Richard Blanke writes about the fate of ethnic Germans serving in the Polish armed forces (page 234):
Contrary to prof. Wlodzimierz Jastrzebski - Blanke doesn't quote any German documents on this page 234.

And Jastrzebski - who gives the figure of 20 - quotes German documents.
It is entirelt within the bounds of possibility that around 1000 of them lost their lives in that way.
Considering that in total only 937 of them lost their lives in all ways - of which circumstances of death of 500 are known - and only 20 of these 500 were killed by Poles - your claim is entirely outside the bounds of possibility.

thom
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by thom » 25 Aug 2011 22:30

The figures from Graeberzentrale are incomplete, as I have shown above. And the figure of 937 dead/missing was not even established by Graeberzentrale but in a Polish post-war publication from 1959.

Btw, which German document is quoted by Jastrzebski?

Peter K
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 26 Aug 2011 00:24

The figures from Graeberzentrale are incomplete, as I have shown above.
You may think you did, but you rather didn't, as I have shown above.

The 5th hand report you quoted is in agreement with figures from Graeberzentrale.

It says that 7,000 of the 13,000 had been found - which means that only 5,000 were dead or still missing.

And 5,000 dead and missing is close to the figure given by Graeberzentrale.
the figure of 937 dead/missing was not even established by Graeberzentrale but in a Polish post-war publication from 1959.
Nope - it has been established by Graeberzentrale, just like the number of civilians.

Both numbers are quoted in the same report.

Your claim that prof. Pospieszalski who had found this report in German archives in Poznan after WW2, falsified it later, is just disgusting. If Pospieszalski was still alive, he would sue you for this baseless accusation.

Unfortunately he died in 2007: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karol_Marian_Pospieszalski

"Karol Marian Pospieszalski (11 September 1909 - 19 February 2007 [1] [2]) was a Polish lawyer and historian.

Member of the Polish resistance during World War II, he published his first scholarly student underground in occupied Poland in 1943 (about legal status of Poles on occupied territories). During late 1940s and 1950s in stalinist People's Republic of Poland he was persecuted by the authorities (he was arrested and interrogated by Urząd Bezpieczeństwa). His career and promotions were dalayed due to the government seeing him as a member of the opposition. He was a lecturer at the Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznań, where he would become a professor. He retired in 1979.

Honorary citizen of the city of Poznań since 2005.

His area of specialty included Polish-German relations, particularly during the World War II."

Btw, which German document is quoted by Jastrzebski?
Let the author earn some money and purchase his book - then you will see:

http://merlin.pl/Mniejszosc-niemiecka-w ... l#fullinfo

Image

It is a new book - from March 2010.

If you don't want to buy it, I can give you the reference, but after this weekend - when I come back home.

For the moment I don't have this book near me.

Lokanski
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Lokanski » 26 Aug 2011 03:04

Regarding Richard Blanke. He isn't an unbiased observe. Blanke is in fact a German-American writer, and his analysis of events has been noted as pro-German by others. Personally after reading his books I must confess that that opinion seems valid-he speaks very favourably about German control over Poland in XIX/early XX century and concentrates solely on position of Germans while generally avoiding topics regarding discrimination and oppression of Poles.

As to the topic at hand.
German diversion is described here:

Tomasz Chinciński
http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal/pl/236/440 ... 00_zl.html
Tomasz Chinciński – Niemiecka dywersja w Polsce w 1939 r. w świetle dokumentów policyjnych i wojskowych II Rzeczpospolitej oraz służb specjalnych III Rzeszy, cz.2 (sierpień–wrzesień 1939 r.)

Tomasz Chinciński – Niemiecka dywersja w Polsce w 1939 r. w świetle dokumentów policyjnych i wojskowych II Rzeczypospolitej oraz służb specjalnych III Rzeszy, część I (marzec-sierpień 1939)
http://www.ipn.gov.pl/portal/pl/236/374 ... 00_zl.html


Both titles are free to download.

However, German chauvinist historiography no longer exists, having gone down to defeat along with the National Socialist regime.
That isn't actually true. German nationalist narrative in historiography was continued by fathers of German history teaching post-war Hans Rothfels and Werner Conze for example, as part of general trend of reintroduction of former Nazis and nationalists to West German political and scientific life. Even today the German nationalist claims can be found in general literature(like claims that Polish cities didn't exist before introduction of legal rules imported from Germany). Other myths often found are claims that Germans always co-existed peacefully with Poles before 1945 or were bringers of "civilization" and so on.

thom
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by thom » 26 Aug 2011 06:15

Domen you wrote:
The 5th hand report you quoted is in agreement with figures from Graeberzentrale.
It says that 7,000 of the 13,000 had been found - which means that only 5,000 were dead or still missing.
Do you understand a bit of German? Then please look at my copy of this document from 15th August again. The note actually says that 13000 Germans (including 400 women) were missing in total. 7000 of them could be found, but only 5600 of them identified. And that the search for the remaining 6000 was still ongoing.

So if indeed 7000 "survivors" could be found but only 5600 of them identified what happened to the other 1400 "survivors" who could no be identified? Did they forget their names under Polish torture? - What I want to show you is that it is indeed not obvious from this report that the number of 7000 refers to survivors who had been found. Please don't draw hasty conclusions.
Your claim that prof. Pospieszalski who had found this report in German archives in Poznan after WW2, falsified it later, is just disgusting. If Pospieszalski was still alive, he would sue you for this baseless accusation.
Where exactly did you find that claim? Please quote me correctly. Apparently you never read his book - please do so before discussing it. The book explains how the list was established. There is no such report with these figures you repeatedly quoted from Graeberzentrale. Pospieszalski based his post-war table on a card index found in the Poznan archive.

When you read Pospieszalski's book you will figure out that one of his intentions is to disprove Polish atrocities. For example, he likes to put terms like "Polish murders" in quotation marks. The last sentence of his book reads: "In conclusion it seems fair to say that the number of victims among the German minority in September 1939 resulting directly or indirectly from secret Nazi activities was no higher than 2000."

I guess this tells a lot about Pospieszalski. That he was an opponent of the Polish government does not automatically confirm his scientific trustworthiness. And I wonder how he became lecturer as an opponent of the government. This was clearly unusual in communist times.
If you don't want to buy it, I can give you the reference, but after this weekend - when I come back home.
That would be great - thanks in advance.

Peter K
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 26 Aug 2011 16:08

Do you understand a bit of German? Then please look at my copy of this document from 15th August again. The note actually says that 13000 Germans (including 400 women) were missing in total. 7000 of them could be found, but only 5600 of them identified. And that the search for the remaining 6000 was still ongoing.

So if indeed 7000 "survivors" could be found but only 5600 of them identified what happened to the other 1400 "survivors" who could no be identified? Did they forget their names under Polish torture? - What I want to show you is that it is indeed not obvious from this report that the number of 7000 refers to survivors who had been found. Please don't draw hasty conclusions.
Yes, I understand. Question is how to interprete this sentence (regardless of language to which you translate it):

"13000 Germans (including 400 women) were missing in total. 7000 of them could be found, but only 5600 of them identified. And that the search for the remaining 6000 was still ongoing."

I interprete (understand) it as follows - out of 13,000 missing, 7,000 had been found = found to be alive.

Out of these 7,000 - 5,600 had been "identified" in detail - i.e. their surname, name, place of residence, their fate during the time when they were missing. The remaining 1,400 had not been "identified", but were found to be alive - the reason for this can be, that they had been missing on the territory of the Soviet occupation zone.

As I wrote, many of the interned (and ca. 15,000 Germasn were interned by Poles in 1939) had been interned in Eastern Poland (they were local Germans from that area - mainly Volhynia) or transported eastwards.

And eastern half of Poland was captured and annexed by the Soviet Union in 1939.

That's why when the German-Soviet border was established in the German-Soviet "Treaty About Borders And Friendship" - many of the interned (= missing) found themselves in the Soviet occupation zone.

Since the circulation of information between Soviet and German occupation zones was not that easy - especially during the early period of occupation - Germans had only limited information about Volksdeutsche interned in Soviet territory. Those Volksdeutsche had been liberated by Soviets, but not necessarily Soviets were willing to immediately tell the Germans everything about those Volksdeutsche. Soviets could provide the Germans only with statistical information - such as for example "we liberated 300 Volksdeutsche from Posen in Bereza Kartuska camp".

And Germans - basing on information that "Soviets liberated 300 Volksdeutche from Posen in Bereza Kartuska camp" - could later establish, that out of the 500 missing Volksdeutsche from Posen - 300 had been found.

In the same time, it is very likely that Germans didn't know detailed personal data of those 300.

I.e. - they knew that 300 from Posen were liberated, but didn't know their surnames, etc.

That's why they wrote that "7000 were found, but only 5600 identified".

The remaining 1400 could be - as in the example above - those found "on paper", in the Soviet occupation zone. Found "on paper" - because the only source saying that they were found were laconic Soviet messages.
When you read Pospieszalski's book you will figure out that one of his intentions is to disprove Polish atrocities. For example, he likes to put terms like "Polish murders" in quotation marks.
Presumption of innocence is one of basic rules of justice. That's why those who accuse of atrocities should prove them; not those who are accused should disprove them.

What you call "disproving", is just defence - Pospieszalski adjudged, that proves of alleged atrocities weren't strong enough. Being sceptical towards German claims is not a crime.

And if someone is sceptical, it is not a reason to baselessly accuse him of falsifying documents...
Where exactly did you find that claim? Please quote me correctly.
In this post:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1619744

Let's quote fragments:

"a "card index" from Gräberzentrale was allegedly found in the county archive of Poznan (...) Who knows (...) if there was nothing "rearranged" after the war, particularly, as the results were first to be published in a biased Polish series in 1959."

"Allegedly found" - instead of found,
"rearranged" - instead of researched,
and "biased Polish series".

You clearly doubt the authenticity of this document, just because it was found by Polish researcher.

And we know that that "biased Polish series in 1959" = Pospieszalski's book from 1959.

It was published in 1959 because research for his book took Pospieszalski 14 years.
The last sentence of his book reads: "In conclusion it seems fair to say that the number of victims among the German minority in September 1939 resulting directly or indirectly from secret Nazi activities was no higher than 2000."

I guess this tells a lot about Pospieszalski.
What does it tell of him? It is just estimation of casualties among saboteurs - not of all casualties. Pospieszalski's "no higher than 2000" can mean any number from 2000 down. And this estimation of Pospieszalski says that no more than half of total mortal casualties among civilian Volksdeutsche were deaths as the result of sabotage activities.
That he was an opponent of the Polish government does not automatically confirm his scientific trustworthiness.
This is exactly what I told to Michael Mills before. I told him that that someone was not pro-Nazi or German chauvinist does not automatically confirm his scientific trustworthiness. I referred for example to Richard Blanke.
And I wonder how he became lecturer as an opponent of the government.
I'll tell you how - he was such a scientific authority, that even government did not dare to completely remove him from public live. But the government was constantly hamstringing him. Particularly his scientific career.

The Communist government had strong power but it wasn't almighty. It often had to agree for compromise.
Apparently you never read his book
Well, I didn't. But these figures are also quoted by other publications.

thom
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by thom » 26 Aug 2011 21:55

What does it tell of him? It is just estimation of casualties among saboteurs - not of all casualties. Pospieszalski's "no higher than 2000" can mean any number from 2000 down. And this estimation of Pospieszalski says that no more than half of total mortal casualties among civilian Volksdeutsche were deaths as the result of sabotage activities.
You clearly have to read his book before discussing it. His conclusion is that "saboteurs" were the only victims, and that 2000 is the total number of dead.
And if someone is sceptical, it is not a reason to baselessly accuse him of falsifying documents.
Domen again - a card index has been found that you have not seen and I have not seen. Pospieszalski does not quote a German document (and hence did not falsify a German document), he published a table which, according to him, is based on this card index. I would need to see the originals and check the methodology before relying on just one table published in a clearly biased book.

Peter K
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 26 Aug 2011 22:12

published in a clearly biased book.
Wait a minute - AFAIK, Pospieszalski doesn't deny that there were - apart from real saboteurs and victims of combats - also some innocent victims of Polish anti-sabotage actions, who died as the result of mistake or exaggeration in assessing who was saboteur and who was not. I.e. - Pospieszalski doesn't deny that some of Volksdeutsche were wrongly judged as being saboteurs. So such a moderate book is a "biased book" for you. On the other hand, a book which fully denies the existence of any German sabotage, would be an "objective" book for you?

As to "Polish crimes" - Pospieszalski writes this in brackets because he recognizes innocent victims among Volksdeutsche as the result of Polish mistakes and exaggerations in their anti-sabotage operations - not as the result of deliberate Polish actions target of which was to kill Volksdeutsche - as popular neo-Nazi version says.

At least this is what I have heard & read in other publications about Pospieszalski's point of view.

I didn't read his book directly so I may be wrong. Can you clarify?
His conclusion is that "saboteurs" were the only victims, and that 2000 is the total number of dead.
How is it possible, if he personally quotes Graeberzentrale figures, which say about 5000 dead & missing?

So you say that he denies his own conclusion in one of his further conclusions?

michael mills
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by michael mills » 27 Aug 2011 07:26

MajorT wrote:
There is no doubt that some Polish Volksdeutsch were involved in guerrilla warfare in Poland.

The most obvious case is that of a raid mounted on 25 August 1939. (The following is from memory and so may not be accurate in every last detail, but I am sure the geist of it is).
You have got it wrong.

The raid on a railway tunnel connecting Slovakia with Poland was carried out by a German commando unit coming from Slovakia. The unit was comprised of members of the German armed forces, not ethnic German civilians living in Poland.

Some or all of the members of the Commando unit may have been bilingual persons who originally lived in the eastern provinces of Germany that were handed over to Poland under the Treaty of Versailles. Remember that close to a million persons living in those ceded provinces chose to retain their German citizenship and move to Germany; it is likely that German commandos were recruited from among them.

Accordingly, it is a falsification to claim that Poloish railway workers were killed by ethnic German citizens of POland; they were killed by members of the German armed forces.

Do not let yourself by led astray by the falsehoods of Polish chauvinist historiography.

Lokanski
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Lokanski » 27 Aug 2011 12:30

That someone was a member of military formation created by Nazi Germany which intended to exterminate Poles and Jews using such means as gas chambers, doesn't mean he wasn't part of ethnic minority of Germans in pre war Poland.

Tomasz Chińcinski notes that in August 1939 for example Abwehr(according to Abwehr's own lists and estimates) recruited in Polish Silesia 4474 members from German minority in Poland that were trained in sabotage and diversion in preparation for war. In Greater Poland it listed 2324 people. A careful reminder- those were not the only ones-SD also organised its own sabotage and diversion effort.

That members of German minority in Poland took part in actions against Polish state during the invasion of Poland is not a fairly tale, it is in fact a very well established even, even going by usually biased Nazi sources.

Sometimes the Polish intelligence was able to intercept these groups. For example it arrested a group of Germans led by men named Gotthschalk and Tschuschke who both are known to have been Abwehr agents(according to materials found in Abwehr documentation), and led 127 people strong fighting formation under the name „K-Organisation Gottschalk"
His conclusion is that "saboteurs" were the only victims, and that 2000 is the total number of dead.
Actually 3257, of which 2000 died during sabotage and diversion operations.

michael mills
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by michael mills » 28 Aug 2011 07:37

Sometimes the Polish intelligence was able to intercept these groups. For example it arrested a group of Germans led by men named Gotthschalk and Tschuschke who both are known to have been Abwehr agents(according to materials found in Abwehr documentation), and led 127 people strong fighting formation under the name „K-Organisation Gottschalk"
When you say "group of Germans", what do you mean? Germans who came from Germany? Or ethnic German citizens of Poland?

When was this group captured? Before the German invasion?
Actually 3257, of which 2000 died during sabotage and diversion operations.
The fact is that there is a list of names of over 5000 ethnic German citizens of Poland who lost their lives in September 1939. That list was found by the Polish chauvinist historian Pospieszalsk in Poznan after the war; it is now in the German archives.

There is no real evidence that any of the persons on that list were involved in any sort of sabotage, or that they lost their lives in combat against Polish forces. They were all civilians who were summarily executed by Polish soldiers or lynched by Polish civilians.

There were certainly German commando groups that infiltrated into Poland immediately before the main German invasion to carry out sabotage and other commando operations. Some of them may have been killed in firefights with Polish forces. But the casualties of those German commando groups are entirely separate from the 4000- 5000 ethnic German civilians who were killed.

Polish chauvinist historians such as Chincinski falsify history by deliberately confusing the casualties of German commando units with the deaths of ethnic German civilians who were not kiled in fighting but were summarily executed or lynched. Those Polish historians such as Jastrzebski who have renounced chauvinism have openly admitted that the Polish chauvinist version of events at Bydgoszcz, such as propagated by Chincinski and other diehards, is false.

Peter K
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 12 Sep 2011 12:36

Dr Tomasz Chincinski has sent me this English summary of his book "Hitler's Outpost. German Sabotage in Poland in 1939", Gdansk-Warsaw 2010, written by Ms Maja Latynska. He says it contains the key findings of his research:
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Last edited by Peter K on 12 Sep 2011 12:37, edited 1 time in total.

Peter K
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 12 Sep 2011 12:37

Further pages:
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