Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

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Peter K
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 21 Dec 2011 02:32

Interesting talk about the Bydgoszcz Bloody Sunday (including photos of traces of bullets on buildings):

Original Polish version:

http://forum.bsmz.org/viewtopic.php?p=6 ... 479b92b805

Google-translated to English version (link to page 2 out of 12 - you can switch in the right upper corner):

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... md%3Dimvns

======================================

Also - ca. 50+ of the civilian victims (not counting soldiers) of events on 3 & 4 IX were Poles (Catholics):

List copied from the original Polish version (48 to 69 are Polish soldiers; rest are civilians). In case of a few of them specific cause of death is given (the rest have just "zginął" = "killed") - I will translate these cases:

1. Ziemich Paweł, bez daty , IX , zginął ul. Bielickiej
2. Ziemich Marcin, jak wyżej .
3. Okulski Paweł, bez daty, IX, zginął pl. Wolności 1.
4. Kałamejka Jan, lat 15, 3 IX, zginął ul. Ugory 42.
5. Leocha Janina, lat 23, IX, zginęła ul. Ugory 43 .
6. Piaskowski Sylwester, lat 29, IX, zginął ul. Orla 21 .
7. Rosiński Alfons, lat 31, IX, zginął ul. Orla 64 .
8. Kurczewski Walerian, lat 28, IX, zginął ul. Lenartowicza 64.
9. Bygier Stanisław, lat 56 , IX , zginął ul. Szubińska .
10. Jagodzińska Magdalena, lat 87, IX , zginęła , zmarła ? ul. Konopna 55. ----> killed, died naturally [87 y. old] ?
11.Dropniewska Ewa, lat 18, IX , zginęła ul. Nowodworska22 .
12. Smakowski Tadeusz, lat 19, IX , zginął ul.Halicka 21.
13. Papka Paweł, lat 64 , IX, zginął ul.Szubińska.
14. Kwasiński Józef, lat 56 , IX, zginął ul. Szubińska 9.
15. Pleszewski Edmund, lat 30, IX,zginął ul. Gnieźnieńska 26.
16. Szokałła Franciszek, lat ? , IX,zginął ul. Ks. Skorupki 57.
17. Jendykiewicz Edward, lat 17, IX, zginął ul. Bielicka 48.
18-32 Łącznie 15 osób N. N, bez daty, wyznanie rzymsko katolickie, bez lokalizacji .
33. Szczepański Alfons, lat 28, IX, zginął ul. Grunwaldzka 209
34-36 N.N 3 osoby, IX, zginęły ul. Piękna .
37-38 N.N 2 osoby, IX, zginęły ul. Kujawska.
39. Sporny Alfons, lat 19, 3 IX, zginął ul. ?
40. Adrian Helena, lat ? 3 IX, zginęła ul. ?
41. Gordon Józef, lat 31 lub 52 3 IX , zginął ul. ?
42. Janicka Teresa, lat 12, 3 IX, zginęła ul. ? od odłamka granatu -------> by grenade shrapnel
43. Swakowska Stanisława, lat 58, 3 IX, zginęła ul. ? nieszczęśliwy wypadek . -----> in unfortunate accident
44. Janas Tadeusz, lat 33 , 4 IX , zginął ul. ?
45. Brychcy Elżbieta, lat ? 3 IX, zginęła ul. ?
46. Mieliński Stanisław, lat 47, 3 IX , zginął ul. ?
47. Skonieczka Edmund, lat 4 , 4 IX , zginął ul. ?
48-67 to 20 żołnierzy Armii " Pomorze " patrz post wyżej ----------> soldiers
68-69 to 2 żołnierzy z kwatery 5- KW , ul. Kcyńska (...) ------------> soldiers
70. Ossowski Augustyn , lat 40 , 3 IX, cmentarz Nowofarny.

Peter K
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 21 Dec 2011 03:19

On page 3 of that thread there are statistics on casualties provided by Seth:
seth wrote: Analyzing the level of casualties inside the city and on its outskirts we can use info given in the book of Edmund Serwanski "German sabotage and Nazi crimes in Bydgoszcz, against the events of 3 IX 1939". There on page 61, there is a chart specifying the number of German victims in the first days of September 1939. It is an attachment to testimonies of Józefa Mikołajewska, a clerk of the statistical department of the City Administration in Bydgoszcz.

According to this testimony in total 618 people died, 546 men and 72 women. Of this number local citizens are 238 persons while nonresident population are 286 persons. Place of residence of 94 remains unknown.

On page 62, there is another chart which concerns casualties of Polish population in period 1 September 1939 to 31 December 1939. As murdered, 904 persons are listed, missing are 322, and 70 persons were to be killed as the result of Luftwaffe air attack on 2 September 1939.

When it comes to casualties after the Luftwaffe air attack in the region of railway station of PKP, so far we determine it as ca. 20 persons. I posted this list in another forum section. I will attach the link.

German victims of the Bydgoszcz events were buried in a newly separated quarter near the evangelical cemetery on the Zaświat street. In Bydgoszcz Registry-Office survived a list: Liste ermordeter Volksdeutscher - Ehrenhaim. This list includes 618 entries, of whom 88 persons are designated as unknown. In these records are included, running number, personal details, date and place of birth, date of death, place where body was found, place of residence of closest family member, number of death certificate, comments and number of grave.

Ehrenhaim, or Ehrenhain - as it was called - was in Goebbels' idea supposed to be a necropoly, a symbol of martyrdom of the German peoples. Expansion of the cemetery was planned, but never took place. As far as I know only columns near the main entrance were built. I attach the photo of the project of this cemetery. After the war it was liquidated."
Seth also provided some data on where bodies of those Polish victims (civilians and soldiers) were found (of course not for all victims such info is known) - and compared them with map on which points in the city where German saboteurs opened fire to Poles were marked. Basing on this info he concluded that at least few dozens civilians and soldiers could be killed by German saboteurs (as they died in those places). Especially evangelical churches were places from which often fire was opened to ethnic Poles - and number of ethnic Polish victims whose bodies were found near evangelical churches is quite significant. This map also turned to be useful in his research of bullet traces from 1939 that still can be seen on buildings in Bydgoszcz. This info also can be found on 3rd page.

Black points on this map show spots in which fire was opened to Polish soldiers marching across the city:

http://forum.bsmz.org/download/file.php ... 8d11c43a37

Image

Unfortunately only poor resolution image was uploaded to that website.

============================================

Edit:

One more interesting piece of reliable German historiography:

"Deutsche Rundschau" article (from 12 September 1939) which mentions about the involvement of British Secret Service agents in action of murdering Volksdeutsche during the Bromberger Blutsonntag... :

Image

Peter K
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 21 Dec 2011 03:47

Website of Bloody Sunday (available in English, Polish and German):

http://www.bydgoszcz-bromberg.pl/index. ... =2&lang=en

===============================================

And something from this article:

http://www.bsmz.org/articles.php?article_id=27

Google-translated to English version:

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... md%3Dimvns

A map of the Polish-German frontline at the outskirts of Bydgoszcz during 3 September 1939:

http://www.bsmz.org/images/articles/R.G.Falm-ryc.1.jpg

Blue - German units (for example III/122/50 DP = III battalion of Inf.Rgt.122 of 50 Inf.Div.)
Red - Polish units (for example II/62/15 DP = II battalion of 62 Inf.Rgt. of 15 Inf.Div.)
R.G.Falm-ryc.1.jpg
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michael mills
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by michael mills » 21 Dec 2011 12:21

Especially evangelical churches were places from which often fire was opened to ethnic Poles - and number of ethnic Polish victims whose bodies were found near evangelical churches is quite significant.
Domen,

This sounds like medieval religious prejudice, the fantasy of a fanatical Catholic who hates Protestants. Of course a Protestant sniper would shoot from a Protestant church! It is a centre of heretics after all!

Just think about it how ridiculous it is! A sniper sits up in the tower of a Evangelical church, looking for ethnic Poles on the street below. When he sees an ethnic Pole down on the street, he takes aim, fires - and bingo, another dead ethnic Pole to add to the tally.

But wait a minute! How can the sniper sitting up high in the tower of the Evangelical Church tell whether a small figure in the street down below is an ethnic Pole or an ethnic German? Poles and Germans do not have different skin colour after all.

The accounts of ethnic German survivors are far more rational and credible. They say that Polish soldiers and militiamen were guided to the houses of ethnic Germans by Polish civilian neighbours who knew where the ethnic Germans lived. They say that the Polish soldiers and militiamen dragged the people found in the ethnic German houses into the street and shot them, or sometimes shot them inside the houses.

No silly allegations of ethnic Germans being shot at from Catholic churches!

There were even Polish allegations of snipers shooting from Evangelical cemeteries!

It is obvious that a lot of Polish civilians were suffering from a collective psychosis. Being ardent Catholics prejudiced against Protestants, they already had a firmly negative view of Evangelical churches, seeing them as places where accursed heretics gathered and preached their heresy, and also of Evangelical cemeteries, seeing them as accursed places where damned heretics were buried.

Thus, when they heard firing in the town (most probably the result of retreating Polish soldiers firing on each other by mistake), they jumped to the conclusion that it must be coming from those places of evil and heresy, the Evangelical churches and cemeteries, and that its cause was evil Protestant shooting at good pious Catholics.s

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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by jola » 21 Dec 2011 16:28

Just think about it how ridiculous it is! A sniper sits up in the tower...
Indeed ridiculous. Snipers usually sit in cellars.

Evangelical pastors don't usually get personally involved in mass murder but within a month in that area they would be.

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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 22 Dec 2011 00:46

The accounts of ethnic German survivors are far more rational and credible.
Especially that one about British Secret Service agents.

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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by michael mills » 22 Dec 2011 02:35

Especially that one about British Secret Service agents.
That was something made up by German Government propaganda agencies, not by the ethnic German residents of Bydgoscz who had experienced the attacks of their Polish neighbours.

It is the equivalent of the canard spread by Polish sources, which claimed that the German Government deliberately provoked Polish soldiers and civilians to attack ethnic German civilians so as to provide "martyrs" for German anti-Polish propaganda.

The truth of the events in Bydgoszcz on 3-4 September 1939 is that it was not planned by either the German or the Polish Governments. Rather it was a spontaneous outburst of anti-German rage on the part of the Polish population, which was in the grip of a collective psychosis about German infiltrators, eg the rumours about large numbers of German parachutists landing close to the town.

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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 22 Dec 2011 16:08

Rather it was a spontaneous outburst of anti-German rage on the part of the Polish population
Rather it was a partly planned & partly spontaneous outburst of anti-Polish rage on the part of the German population & saboteurs, who started to shoot at columns of Polish military units marching across the city from positions located in high points like towers of churches, windows & attics of houses, all along the march roads of Polish units (we can see on the map posted above that spots where German armed saboteurs & armed civilians opened fire to Polish soldiers are located along the streets along which those Polish units marched across the city).

Volksdeutsche were encouraged by sounds of the nearby front (which gave them the confidence that the city was going to very soon be "liberated" by Wehrmacht - which was not the case as it turned out, because Polish defence of the "Bydgoszcz Bridgehead" - area west of the city - turned out to be stronger than expected) and by Nazi saboteurs sent to the city to start the entire action and draw also part of local population into this anti-Polish "uprising".

Shooting at Polish soldiers and militiamen was recorded from over 180 spots in the city, including ca. 8 - 9 churches (if I counted it correctly using that poor resolution map). This indicates large scale of the "uprising".

Among the 618 German dead of these events, just 238+ are local citizens - while the other group of 286+ of these dead are saboteurs who were nonresident population and had been sent to Bydgoszcz with certain task.

Moreover - of the 618 German dead, 546 are men and only 72 women - while in pogroms of civilians proportion of male & female victims is roughly 50/50. Which means that no pogrom was perpetrated in this case.
The truth of the events in Bydgoszcz on 3-4 September 1939 is that it was not planned by either the German or the Polish Governments.
It was a military & paramilitary action planned mainly by Nazi Germany's Military Intelligence (Abwehr).
so as to provide "martyrs" for German anti-Polish propaganda.
This is disputable. Providing "martyrs" was in fact only a side effect - because this action failed.

If this action succeeded - there would be only a very few "martyrs" to provide for the Nazi propaganda.

I would say that Germans really expected that this action would succeed - if coordinated & cooperated with operations of regular Wehrmacht west of Bydgoszcz - and would spread chaos among Polish forces.

Fortunately their expectations failed - Polish units remained hard-headed, not only they repulsed all German attacks against defensive positions of the "Bydgoszcz Bridgehead" on 3 September, but also managed to efficiently and in good order carry out the withdrawal across Bydgoszcz. And also they dealt with German "partisans" and saboteurs properly - first suppressed the uprising with adorable efficiency, then executed all the Nazi bandits.

If this sabotage action succeeded, it could lead to collapse of the defence of the "Bydgoszcz Bridgehead" as the result of chaos & panic caused by sabotage in Bydgoszcz and then spread from Bydgoszcz to frontline units fighting west of the city. This subsequently could lead to defeat of southern wing of Army "Pomorze" (15. Inf.Div.).

It was a tactical military victory of the Polish Army and citizen self-defence militia.

But could be a strategic military victory of Nazi German regime's Army & paramilitaries - if they succeeded.
Especially that one about British Secret Service agents.
That was something made up by German Government propaganda agencies, not by the ethnic German residents
German Government propaganda agencies were run by the ethnic German residents - not by Eskimos.

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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by michael mills » 22 Dec 2011 22:40

Among the 618 German dead of these events, just 238+ are local citizens - while the other group of 286+ of these dead are saboteurs who were nonresident population and had been sent to Bydgoszcz with certain task.
That is simply a Polish chauvinist fantasy.

It is nonsense to suggest that that several hundred armed German saboteurs were infiltrated into Bydgoszcz under the noses of the Polish security forces, which were in a heightened state of alert, through a hostile and suspicious civilian population that was keeping a close watch on the local ethnic Germans.
Shooting at Polish soldiers and militiamen was recorded from over 180 spots in the city, including ca. 8 - 9 churches.....
And why this obsession with Evangelical churches? That seems to be a relic of religious prejudice dating from the Counter-Reformation in the 16th Century.

The truth is found here, in this site linked by Domen, the testimony of Wlodzimierz Kaldowski:

http://www.bydgoszcz-bromberg.pl/index. ... =2&lang=en

From my vantage point I noticed that they were firing again from the church tower. An all-terrain vehicle with four soldiers stopped. I heard gunshots again. They went into the church again, but without result.

What can we do? They must have some secret passages.
We set the church on fire
- the soldiers decided.

Everybody into the church!
We pile up the pews!
Somebody from the vehicle brought petrol. The entire church quickly caught fire. It was on fire until Tuesday, September 5, in the morning. I was there at 10 o'clock, and I saw women from the adjoining rectory carrying out heaps of white plates and bed linen.
The truth is that Kaldowski, in a state of paranoid excitement, heard shots coming from somewhere ( since this occurred on 4 September, probably it was the sound of ethnic German civilians being shot by Polish lynch-mobs), and imagined it was coming from a church.

He called a group of Polish soldiers, who burst into the church but found nothing.

In their paranoid state, Kaldowski and the soldiers jumped to the conclusion that there must be secret passages, instead of admitting the obvious truth that there had been no snipers in the church and no shots coming from it.

Why would a church have secret passages?

In their paranoid rage, the soldiers decided to burn the church down. Pure lust for destruction of anything "German", without good reason.

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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 23 Dec 2011 00:38

Why would a church have secret passages?
Because in the past churches were places of refuge for population in the event of enemy capturing a town.

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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 23 Dec 2011 03:08

Bydgoszcz in August 1939 had 143,075 inhabitants - including 9208 Germans (of them 2105 Catholics).

But one has to be blind to believe in Michael Mills' claims about alleged "political neutrality" or "lack of anti-Polish sentiment" of these Germans. Quite the contrary - the Bydgoszcz community of Germans was very active in the field of politics. Nationalistic pro-Hitler and anti-Polish sentiments were very strong among its members.

Of these 9208 as many as 2170 belonged to pro-Nazi Deutsche Vereinigung - DV (as of 1937).

Michael previously asked about the role of evangelical churches in the sabotage in Bydgoszcz... He claimed that this is just "paranoid", "Catholic paranoia", to claim that even 8 out of 180 spots from which saboteurs shot (so not even 5% of all - sic!) were evangelical churches! Well, Michael - it happens that one of members of the local "department" of Deutsche Vereinigung in Bydgoszcz, was Julius Assmann (1868 - 1939) - who was at the same time the director (superintendent in Polish - not sure about translation) of the evangelical church!

And one of members of a board of the local DV in Bydgoszcz - Otton Niefeldt - was an agent of Abwehrstelle in Stettin! DV had many more influential members with pro-Nazi or pro-Reich connections! Some of them probably died in the events on 3 & 4 September, as they have 1939 as the year of their death (like Assmann).

Further 700 (as of 1937 - in 1939 even more) - mainly young Germans - belonged to Jungdeutsche Partei.

Germans belonging to pro-Nazi Jungdeutsche Partei were described by Polish authorities in 1937 as:

"JP consists of combative element, full of enthusiasm, active, aggressive, sincerely professing Adolf Hitler's slogans and believing in possibility of their implementation in practice."

Further 480 German inhabitants of Bydgoszcz - as of 1937 - belonged to Nationalsozialistische Deutsche
Arbeiterpartei - NSDAP. I don't have to say that this party was "pro-Nazi" - it was simply Nazi. :lol:

About activities of the Nazi Party's "department" in Bydgoszcz, it was reported:

"This party, consisting in Bydgoszcz and in the Bydgoszcz periphery of 480 members, apart from propaganda work, full of radically nationalistic spirit, is expanding the net of influences especially in organizations and in business firms, sending its agents there. Activity of this party is secretive and utterly hostile to the Polish state."

The activity of this party was formally illegal, but was tolerated by the Polish authorities.

Apart from these political parties above, there were 42 more officialy non-political organizations of local Germans (as you can see Germans in Bydgoszcz were a very well organized community) - which were - to lesser or greater extent - influenced by the "brown" ideology of Good Uncle Hitler residing on the other side of the border...

Ferdinand Lang in his "Denkschrift an Herrn Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring", Bromberg 1 V 1940, wrote:

"A front of unity against the Polish state was formed in Bromberg. In 1935 in Bromberg a memorial to the then Polish prime minister Slawek was drawn up, in which it was clearly stated, that we - Germans in Poland - stand on the ground of the National-Socialist worldview and that we will fight with all available legal means for spiritual assimilation with the worldview of the Fatherland of our origin."

Some more quotes about attitudes of Germans towards their Polish neighbours in post-1934 Bydgoszcz:

"(...) Germans more and more often underlined their affiliation to the Reich, they did not try to hide their contemptuous attitude towards Polishness, they demonstratively used German language, they used Nazi salutations. Especially German youth, who were encompassed by German organizations, pastors and teachers with special care, being educated by them for nationalists and enemies of the [Polish] state, behaved like this."

Another one:

"Emotionally local Germans gravitate towards the Reich, and their external loyalty towards Poland is only the result of cold calculation and reason. But if they are ever going to have an opportunity to choose between feelings and reason, they will follow the voice of feelings."

Source:

http://www.bydgoszcz.pl/binary/Wydarzen ... -22266.pdf

=============================

So - as you can see - there was very "fertile ground" for the "seed of sabotage" in Bydgoszcz... :roll:

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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 19 Jan 2012 01:12

I came across this account. It seems to confirm that apart from executing real saboteurs, there actually were also cases of crimes. However he explicitly writes that they were not commited by the regular Army units, but rather by some rear, auxiliary, semi-regular or volunteer units (like ON or various self-defences maybe?):

Translation:

"(...) [describing events on 5 September] After installing main headquarters in grange Żółwin, I looked in farm buildings. In the barn a mass, maybe more than 100, women and children, of German nationality. They had deadly pale faces, they were hungry. I asked, what were they doing there. It turned out, that bandits were conducting their own policy and revenge. On our way there we indeed had seen numerous dead bodies. Those locked people were to be burned. Sudden appearance of our units scared away the vagabonds. I immediately ordered those people to go back to their homes. There were more of such cases of lawlessness. This was done by cowards, who did not belong to units fighting at the frontline, and used their own discretion in lynching. I will not say, that those were volunteers from National Defence [ON] battalions, but already in the POW camp in Skierniewice I saw scenes, when civilians recognized individuals, who had commited extrajudicial executions. (...)"

- fragment from memoirs of Lt.Col. Stanisław Bobrowski, Chief of Staff of 27. Infantry Division.

Lt.Col. Stanisław Bobrowski:

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... md%3Dimvns

ImageImage


Grange Żółwin was located at 53°4'1"N 18°7'15"E - to the south-east of Bydgoszcz:

http://wikimapia.org/16193605/pl/Folwar ... 3%C5%82win

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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by michael mills » 19 Jan 2012 01:52

Apart from the massacre in Bydgoszcz itself, there were massacres in the surrounding villages and small towns, where there was a substantial ethnic German population. It is estimated that the total number of ethnic Germans killed by Poles in the Bydgoszcz area, in the town of Bydgoszcz, nearby towns and vilages, and in the countryside, amounted to around 1,000.

The incident mentioned above was presumably the preparation for one such massacre.

It is quite probable that in the Polish armed forces there were humane officers who stopped killings of ethnic German civilians, just as there were German officers who tried to stop killings of Polish civilians.

It is also likely that the massacres in the countryside were carried out by Polish civilian militias, which had been given arms by the Polish army.

However, in Bydgsozcz itself, the summary executions on 3 September were perpetrated by members of the Polish armed forces. On that day the role of Polish civilians was to lead the soldiers to houses where ethnic Germans lived, so that the soldiers could kill them.

The Polish army units evacuated Bydgoszcz on the evening of the 3rd, after handing over authoritiy to an armed civilian militia commanded by members of anti-German political groupings. It was this militia which continued the killings on the 4th, before the German forces captured the city.

I note from the previous post by Domen that he seems to believe that any ethnic German who was a member of an ethnically-based political party (such as the director of the Evangelical Church Julius Assmann) must automatically have been a saboteur. Presumably the Polish population of Bydgoszcz in 1939 also believed that, so they killed any of their ethnic German neighbours whom they knew or thought to be members of German political organisations, regardless of whether those persons had actually done anything.

In that respect the actions of Polish soldiers and civilians were comparable with the later retaliatory actions of German soldiers and local ethnic Germans, who killed members of anti-German Polish nationalist organisations such as the insurgent associations, regardless of whether they had actually done anything.

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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 19 Jan 2012 12:41

The incident mentioned above was presumably the preparation for one such massacre.
Or presumably - using similar type of ridiculous arguments that you use to deny every evidence of German sabotage - Lt.Col. Bobrowski just found a group of 100 Germans who locked themselves in that barn, because they were afraid of rumours about alleged events, and they told him a fairy tale about those alleged crimes - a mix of their own paranoid imagination and Nazi propaganda radio broadcasts (Nazi radio already broadcasted propaganda about the "Bromberger Blutsonntag" on 5 September) - and he believed them. While the dead bodies that he had encountered on his way there, were victims of Luftwaffe air raids, or executed real saboteurs, or killed Polish civilians (you cannot recognize if a dead body is German or Polish) - but the power of persuasion of the fairy tale those Germans in the barn told him, made him believe that what he had seen before were actual victims of crimes. Like you denied the fact of saboteur shooting from evangelical church, I can deny this - using similar kind of argumentation.

But I'm interested in truth - and the fact that I post also accounts which show the opposite side of events, not just those which perfectly fit into the "bad Germans, good Poles" version - is the best proof of my intentions. On the other hand, you are interested just in lies and anti-Polish propaganda. And you will always deny all evidences of sabotage, while cheerfully greeting all accounts about "bloodthirsty Polish Catholic beasts"...

And the fact that you cheerfully accept entire Bobrowski's account except for the phrase which says that extrajudical executions were not carried out by the Polish Army, but by "vagabonds" - confirms my point.
I note from the previous post by Domen that he seems to believe that any ethnic German who was a member of an ethnically-based political party (such as the director of the Evangelical Church Julius Assmann) must automatically have been a saboteur.
Please quote the relevant fragment or cancel this slander.
member of an ethnically-based political party
Nazi related political party - let's add.

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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by cukierpudel » 15 Feb 2012 16:09

Ostmark wrote:
I must add, we will never get the Poles to show themselves satesfied. Nothing can ever satesfie
them.

Winston Churchill, „The Second World War", Book 2, Volume 5, Page 98
Original quote from the book is:
I added that we should never get the Poles to say that they were satisfied. Nothing would satisfy the Poles.
Winston S. Churchill, "The Second World War", Volume 5, Book 2, Chapter "Teheran: Conclusions", p. 320 (in my source)
it comes from Churchill's talk with Stalin over new shape of Europe.
I then brought the discussion back to Poland. I said I did not ask for any agreements, nor was I convinced on the matter myself, but I would rather like to get something down on paper. I then produced the following formula: 'It is thought in principle that the home of the Polish State and nation should be between the so -called Curzon Line and the line of Oder, including for Poland East Prussia (as defined) and Oppeln; but the actual tracing of the frontier line requires careful study, and possibly disentanglement of population at some points.' Why not a formula on which I could say something like this to the Poles: 'I do not know if the Russians would approve, but I think that I might get it for you. You see, you are being well looked after.' I added that we should never get the Poles to say that they were satisfied. Nothing would satisfy the Poles.Stalin then said that Russians would like to have the warm-water port(...)

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