Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

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Peter K
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 13 Sep 2008 16:05

On 31st August the German Army allready was prepared to strike. On 31st August the German Army allready was prepared to strike. Hitler waited to the last hour for a Polish envoy to negotiate.
Germans striked for the first time on 26th of August 1939 - and halted the attack in the last moment, but some units already crossed the Polish border.
It states: "The „Historic Borders" of Poland. One can see that Hamburg, Kiel, Erfurt, Braunschweig, Dresden, Berlin, Rostock ect are all Polish and even the Czechs (Prague and Brünn) belong to them.”
Fortunately there is someone on this forum who knows Polish.

It states:

“Modern Germany”

“The farther historic range of the Slavic tribes to the West according to geographical names of settlements established by priest Stanislav Kozierowski”

“The western border of Poland in times of the king Boleslav Chrobry according to proffesor Wladislav Sęmkowicz”

“The western border of Poland in times of the king Boleslav Krzywousty according to proffesor Wladislav Sęmkowicz”

“Modern Western border of Poland”

michael mills
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by michael mills » 13 Sep 2008 16:56

I think Domen should read some of the earlier posts on this thread, especially this one by the former Forum member Roberto:
The facts are much more prosaic.

On 3 September 1939, two days after the beginning of the German attack on Poland, units of the Polish army were retreating through Bromberg, together with Polish civilians fleeing from the war. The rumor spread that German troops were on the verge of entering the city. When it turned out that this rumor was not accurate, smaller groups of retreating soldiers acting on their own attacked houses and people mainly belonging to the German majority. In the evening the Polish commander, major Albrycht, withdrew his troops, after creating and arming a civil defense force to maintain order. This was like putting Dracula in charge of the blood bank, for the civil defense force, together with newly arriving soldiers, started rounding up alleged "diversionists" and shooting whoever they considered suspicious. Houses were sacked and a church was set on fire.

On 8 September 1939 the Deutsche Rundschau coined the term "Bromberger Blutsonntag" for these events. According to a study released by the German diplomatic service in November 1939, a total of
5,437 ethnic Germans had been massacred throughout Poland during the German invasion. In February 1940, Nazi propaganda blew up the death toll to 58,000 (more than ten times the actual number of victims). The Reich Ministry of the Interior decreed on 7 February 1940 that only this figure was henceforth to be used in speeches, communiqués, etc.

The source of this information are passages from Wolfgang Benz' book Legenden, Lügen, Vorurteile, quoted under the following link:

http://www.h-ref.de/dk/krieg/polen/bromb/brmb.shtml
Roberto was known as a staunch anti-Nazi and a fierce opponent of any expression of the German chauvinist version of history; I am sure that our moderator David Thompson will vouch for that.

Accordingly, the material posted by Roberto cannot be misrepresented as German chauvinist propaganda; it is likely to be the closest to the truth about what happened in Bromberg/Bydgoszcz on 3 September 1939. The version posted by Domen is most probably not the truth, but a Polish chauvinist distortion intended to downplay the Polish responsibility for the massacre of civilians. The fact that the massacre was grossly exaggerated by German propaganda does not negate the historical reality of the massacre itself.

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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by David Thompson » 13 Sep 2008 17:41

Michael -- You wrote:
Roberto was known as a staunch anti-Nazi and a fierce opponent of any expression of the German chauvinist version of history; I am sure that our moderator David Thompson will vouch for that.
I do indeed.

Boby
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Boby » 13 Sep 2008 18:31

The point is that even if the number were just around 100, there was indeed a brutal massacre against the German minority in Bromberg. The atempt to minimize it pointing to subsequent inflation of numbers by the german propaganda misses the whole point. Polish historians now claims that the killings were triggered because ethnic german civilians attempted a "diversionary" against polish troops.

Dolmen appears to follow this point of view, calling the civilians killed "saboteurs".

Just see the gruesome pictures at http://litek.ws/k0nsl/detox/Bromberg1.html

¿The woman's fetus? ¿a saboteur?

Boby,

minimus
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by minimus » 13 Sep 2008 22:11

Boby wrote:The point is that even if the number were just around 100, there was indeed a brutal massacre against the German minority in Bromberg. The atempt to minimize it pointing to subsequent inflation of numbers by the german propaganda misses the whole point. Polish historians now claims that the killings were triggered because ethnic german civilians attempted a "diversionary" against polish troops.

Dolmen appears to follow this point of view, calling the civilians killed "saboteurs".

Just see the gruesome pictures at http://litek.ws/k0nsl/detox/Bromberg1.html

¿The woman's fetus? ¿a saboteur?

Boby,
Just to make sure noone misses the heading of this site: "k0nsl holocaust detox centre"

I'm sure it contains a lot of other revelations but I couldn't be bothered looking.

Boby
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Boby » 13 Sep 2008 22:32

Hi minimus

Even if the website is an holocaust-denial one, please adress the pictures.

¿Do you think there are not from the Bromberg massacre?

The pictures are taken from the book that appears in the top of the page: Der Tod sprach polnisch (a very propagandist title, btw). The publisher is "Arndt". I have 2 books from this editorial, of color pictures of the Reich.

There are other book, from the same publisher, on the Bromberger Blutsonntag:

Image

If any thinks that the pictures doesn't represent the massacre, but they are from other killings, even possibly from polish victims, please post any source that corroborates this. Im very interested in knowing more.

Boby,

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 Sep 2008 10:59

Hi Guys,

Is there a list of alleged victims?

Given the meticulous accounting of Jewish dead in places like Auschwitz, there was presumably an equally detailed German accounting of their own named dead in this instance.

Unfortunately the German Propaganda Ministry's habit of multiplying by a factor of ten German civilian losses it wanted to publicise has tended to obscure the hard, detailed evidence of this case. Dresden was another example where the tenfold rule was later applied.

Cheers,

Sid.

Boby
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Boby » 14 Sep 2008 11:18

But not only Germany multiplied numbers. Look at the bombing of Rotterdam and Churchill claims of 30.000 victims.

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Richard Hargreaves
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Richard Hargreaves » 14 Sep 2008 12:22

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Guys,

Is there a list of alleged victims?

Given the meticulous accounting of Jewish dead in places like Auschwitz, there was presumably an equally detailed German accounting of their own named dead in this instance.

Unfortunately the German Propaganda Ministry's habit of multiplying by a factor of ten German civilian losses it wanted to publicise has tended to obscure the hard, detailed evidence of this case. Dresden was another example where the tenfold rule was later applied.

Cheers,

Sid.
Hi Sid,

I don't know if there's a complete list, but the German-language newspaper in Bromberg, Deutsche Rundschau, published death notices for day after day well into October, e.g.

Max Sauerland (sixty-eight) Father
Karl Sauerland (nineteen) Brother
Erna Sauerland (thirty-six) Sister

They died in their firm belief in Germany.

Gustav Dreger (seventy-six)
Ferdinand Dreger (seventy-four)

Our father was murdered by gangs of Polish soldiers/marauders on 4 September in the forest. He died in happy expectation, in love with the Führer, Volk and country. [Deutsche Rundschau, 9/9/39, 13/9/39, 19/9/39]

Figures for Blutsonntag range from anywhere between 300 and 1,000. I lean towards the former simply because of the Propaganda Ministry's habit of blowing up figures.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 Sep 2008 13:35

Hi Boby,

I am sure you are right, but in this case, unlike the Churchill/Rotterdam example you give, the Germans were not only dealing with their own nationals, but were in possession of both documentary evidence and the bodies, so presumably at Bromberg, as at Dresden, normal civil government institutions were collecting real statistics, not propaganda ones. It is these I was asking about.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 Sep 2008 13:46

Hi Richard,

Thanks.

It would certainly seem that there was a massacre of German civilians in Bromberg, but as yet nobody seems to have presented here a systematic analysis. Perhaps this subject has still yet to fully emerge from under the blizzard of propaganda. I guess the obituary column of Deutsche Rundschau would be a good place to start, followed by a comparitive statistical analysis of the 1931 Polish census and post-September 1939 German statistics, which should give us the order of magnitude of the losses (300, or 1,000, or 5,000, or 50,000), even if not a detailed accounting.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Richard Hargreaves
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Richard Hargreaves » 15 Sep 2008 08:38

There have been a couple of recent-ish studies into events in Bromberg (I never managed to track down copies, however :(), but it's such a contentious issue (as evidenced by the discussions on this and other fora) that it really needs a non-Pole/non-German to look at the subject completely divorced from the massacre (a bit like the book on Breslau written by two Brits).

I have the two books mentioned above, Bromberger Blutsonntag, and Tod Sprach Polnisch, and used both in my book as sources, but I must add a note of caution. They are, if not anti-Polish, then at the very least highly critical of the Poles... and rather silent on German atrocities.

As for the title 'Bromberger Blutsonntag', I don't think it was coined by the local newspaper. It seems much more likely to be Goebbels-esque. It did, however, call the events of September 3-4, Polowanie na Niemców – the hunting of the Germans.

Peter K
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 15 Sep 2008 11:07

Mr. Ostmark wrote:
Allthough great terror and pressure was practiced from the polish side, 60% of the Population voted for Germany.
59 per cent of Silesia population voted for Germany because Germans who didn't live in Silesia but were born in Silesia or even at least one of their parents / grandparents was born in Silesia, had got voting right. More over - great terror and pressure was practiced from the German side, and also Germans managed to illegally bring in significant number of Germans from other regions, who also voted.

According to the “Polish nationalist source” – titled “Statistischer Jahrbuch fur das Deutsche Reich... 1909”, Berlin 1909, page 5, in 1905 population of provinces of so called "eastern Prussia" was:

Province / number of Ewangelics / number of Catholics / number of Jews / number of other Christians - (numbers in thousands):

In 1905:

1. Eastern Prussia / 1720,5 / 278,1 / 13,5 / 17,7 *
2. Western Prussia / 764,7 / 844,5 / 16,1 / 16,2 **
3. Posen / 605,3 / 1347,9 / 30,4 / 2,9 ***
4. Silesia / 2120,3 / 2765,3 / 46,8 / 9,8 ****

Total: 5210,8 / 5235,8 / 106,8 / 46,6

* There was 290 thousand Poles in this province in 1910, mainly in Olsztyn region (268 thousand).

** There was 700 thousand Kaszubians (native Pomeranians), 604 thousand Poles and 400 thousand Germans in this province in 1910. Many of those 700 thousand Kaszubians were Ewangelics, rest of them were Catholics.

*** In 1910 there was 1290 thousand Poles and 807 thousand Germans in Posen Province.

**** In 1910 there was 33% Germans and 67% Poles and others in Silesia.

Kaszubians
- these were people, who were considered as Germans by Germans - which is very funny, but it looked better in German statistics (1100 thousand Germans instead of 400 thousand Germans and 700 thousand Kaszubians):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubians
Last edited by Peter K on 15 Sep 2008 12:02, edited 3 times in total.

Peter K
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Peter K » 15 Sep 2008 11:46

The point is that even if the number were just around 100, there was indeed a brutal massacre against the German minority in Bromberg.
Number of German civilians accidentialy killed during combat between German saboteurs and Polish soldiers - and number of those who were executed by Polish soldiers after combat, because they were arrested for helping the German saboteurs - was 103.

This number of victims – exactly 103 – was established by "Polish nationalist source" - German “Mordkomission” in December 1939.

On the other hand – number of Polish civilians accidentialy killed during combat between German saboteurs and Polish soldiers – and number of those who were killed by the German saboteurs – on 3rd and 4th of September - was around 200.

In these number there are also included Polish and German civilians which were killed – during and after combat – by German and Polish civilians – because civilians from both sides were helping their own armed fighters.

Military casualties of both sides on 3rd of September were:

30 KIA Polish soldiers
110 KIA German saboteurs

Total German casualties on 3rd and 4th of September was up to 300 or exactly 358 (including 103 civilian fatalities), and total Polish casualties on 3rd and 4th of September was 240 (including around 200 civilian fatalities).

Apart from those 110 KIA German saboteurs on 3rd of September, many German saboteurs were KIA or executed on 4th of September.

Now please find info how many Polish civilians were murderred by the Germans in “revenge” – after the German army captured the city - this would be very interesting.

Boby
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Re: Der Bromberger Blutsonntag

Post by Boby » 15 Sep 2008 12:06

Define "Accidentialy".

Do you mean that there was indeed no massacre? There was just "collateral damage"?

This point appear in the "Mordkomission"? If not, what are your sources?

Thanks
Boby,

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