Lynching of Luftwaffe airmen by British mobs

ChristopherPerrien · Post by **ChristopherPerrien** » 16 Dec 2003 00:40

Juha Tompuri wrote:http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawof ... 4.htm#art1
quote: Article 2 of the Hague IV Convention
"The inhabitants of a territory which has not been occupied, who, on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading troops without having had time to organize themselves in accordance with the article 1, shall be regarded as belligerents if they carry arms openly and if they respect the laws and customs of war."To have "international protection" the civilians taking part to the fighting, should obey all the rules.
The mobs:
-have had time to organize
-arms?
-did not respect the laws and rules of war
Regards, Juha

None of these rules are applicable to an angry mob inside of thier own territory. They are not partisans, they dam sure are not soldiers, with or without weapons, therefore the conventions do not apply.

Englander · Post by **Englander** » 16 Dec 2003 01:18

Most of you all heard that German mobs always lynch downed allied airmen because of anger of destruction by the bombing of Germany..

It would seem the German citizens were actively encouarage to kill Allied airman.The so called "Terrorflieger".
Even, if under German military supervision,they were sometimes thrown to the wolves.Can you lay this claim at the British?

Specifically, a 1944 decree by the Minister of Propaganda, Dr. Joseph Goebbels, stating that military guards were not to protect Allied airmen (considered to be murderers) from civilians. This decree was reportedly sanctioned by the NAZI party, and the German High Command. The Naval commanding officer, Kapitän Kurt Goebell received a copy of this order via teleprinter from General Feldmarschall Wilhelm Keitel, Chief of Staff of the German Armed Forces (Wehrmacht).

Here are some well documented cases.

On a bombing mission over Germany, a US 8th. Airforce B-24 was hit by flak and crash landed some 90 miles south of Hanover. The nine man crew were captured, one with a broken ankle was taken to hospital. The other eight were put on a train to a POW camp. On the way, the train stopped at Russelheim where the airmen dismounted and were marched through the town under guard. During the march they were set upon by a crowd of townspeople and pelted with stones, bricks and shovels. Two airmen ran for their lives and escaped. The other six, battered and unconscious were shot by the local Nazi leader, a foreman in the towns Opel Works. All were buried in a common grave. After the war eleven of the perpetrators were found and arrested. Five men were found guilty and hanged, two women received a 30 year jail term, two other men, 15 years each, and one to 25 years. One was acquitted.

That same year, 1944, on December 13, three British airmen were captured and were being marched through the streets of Essen on their way to a Luftwaffe unit for interrogation. The three man escort was commanded by Hauptmann Erich Heyer who ordered the escorts not to interfere if civilians attacked the prisoners. Attacked they were as the party crossed a bridge. Sticks and stones were thrown and a pistol was fired which wounded one of the prisoners in the head. The prison and one of the civilians, Johann Braschoss, were sentenced to death. One of the escorts, Private Koenen, was sent to prison for five years and two other civilians, Karl Kaufer and Hugo Boddenberg, to life imprisonment and ten years respectively. The death sentences were carried out on March 8th 1946. On March 22, 1945, five RAF aircrew were captured after baling out from their damaged aircraft during a raid on the Dreierwalde airfield in which around forty civilians and Luftwaffe personnel were killed. Marched to an interrogation centre by a three man German guard, under the command of Oberfeldwebel Karl Amberger, the party turned on to a track leading into a wood. There the prisoners were shot in cold blood. One prisoner, Australian Flt.Lt. Berick, though wounded, managed to escape. At a British Military Court at Wuppertal on 11th to 14th March, 1946, Karl Amberger was found guilty of shooting unarmed prisoners of war and was sentenced to death. He was hanged on May 15th. 1946.

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/essen.htm
Another sad story.
http://www.486th.org/BS832/Walthall.htm

ChristopherPerrien · Post by **ChristopherPerrien** » 16 Dec 2003 01:45

After the war eleven of the perpetrators were found and arrested. Five men were found guilty and hanged, two women received a 30 year jail term, two other men, 15 years each, and one to 25 years. One was acquitted.

Case in point , Civilans are not soldiers, civilians don't and are not required to have the discipline of soldiers . It is the nature and profession of soldiers see their friends die. Civilians fall under no such rules and "crimes of passion" are not only to be expected but excused. It is the responsibility of the government of these civilians to secure the safety of POWS , if they fail in that , it is a war-crime of murder," As in this case , not against the civilians but against the "guardians" of these POW's.

On a modern day example, would be , what if the guys who flew planes into the WTC parachuted out before impact would you or could you hold a crowd of New Yorker's responsible for what would have happened next, do you think the International courts would or could even bother to press charges.

Englander · Post by **Englander** » 16 Dec 2003 02:18

Technically if civilians beat up or murder downed airman or enemy soldiers , no war-crime has taken place.

Where can you prove this technicality?
The definition of a War crime "a crime committed in wartime; violation of rules of war"
Where can you prove civilians are exempt?

As in this case , not against the civilians but against the "guardians" of these POW's.

No,civilians were hung for this war crime.Even an old woman,if i remember correctly.

Wasn't there veiled threats about war crimes in the 2 Gulf wars?Including civilians attacking downed airman?

ChristopherPerrien · Post by **ChristopherPerrien** » 16 Dec 2003 02:42

The definition of a War crime "a crime committed in wartime; violation of rules of war"

No, a group or person has to be a party or an agent of such agreements , civilians in their own country are not.

Where can you prove civilians are exempt?

Because , the "laws of war" are written for soldiers and agents of a nation when dealing with FOREIGN countries!!!!!! These are not domestic laws as all nations have a variety of those.

I am sorry you can't understand this , if you were or had been a soldier especially if stationed in a foreign country you would understand the nature of priveledges and restrictions inherent for these different groups.
Military law of a particular army is subservient to the international laws of war as that is what soldiers fight under. Domestic laws of civilians, mean nothing in international law. That is why soldiers who have to deal with civilians in foreign country do so with "kid gloves", it is also why soldiers who find themselves stranded in a foriegn country best damn well either get away or find some responsible agents of that country quickly, as the laws that govern them and any "foreign nationals" have nothing in common.

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 16 Dec 2003 03:12

For interested readers, there are newspaper accounts of two trials of German defendants for lynching allied fliers at:

Russelsheim lynching trial
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16792

and

Gross Gerow lynching trial
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16795

Juha Tompuri · Post by **Juha Tompuri** » 16 Dec 2003 09:24

ChristopherPerrien wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawof ... 4.htm#art1
quote: Article 2 of the Hague IV Convention
"The inhabitants of a territory which has not been occupied, who, on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading troops without having had time to organize themselves in accordance with the article 1, shall be regarded as belligerents if they carry arms openly and if they respect the laws and customs of war."To have "international protection" the civilians taking part to the fighting, should obey all the rules.
The mobs:
-have had time to organize
-arms?
-did not respect the laws and rules of war
Regards, Juha
None of these rules are applicable to an angry mob inside of thier own territory. They are not partisans, they dam sure are not soldiers, with or without weapons, therefore the conventions do not apply.

...nor the protective conventions.
As the conventions protect those who have had the right to fight: regular soldiers (and the ones fulfilling all the article 2 of Hague Convention). And the civilians (non-combatants). The mobs seem to fall between these two groups. Unprotected. My opinion is that the Germans would have all the international right to punish members of these groups, for the crimes they committed, whenever caught.

Regards, Juha

Panzermahn · Post by **Panzermahn** » 16 Dec 2003 10:21

Hi guys,

excuse me but i think the topic is about luftwaffe airmen lynched by british mobs not vice versa...

And of course i knew the russelheim lynching...in fact, after the germans surrender, the americans sentence a teen to jail for more than 10 years before german lawyers appealed for leniency..

anyway, i hope u all can get back to this topic because i'm looking info for luftwaffe airmen got lynched by british mob...

I already had info on allied airmen got lynched by german civillians so....thanx 2 anyone if they can get back to the original thread

ChristopherPerrien · Post by **ChristopherPerrien** » 16 Dec 2003 17:29

I know little of actual examples but my comment would apply to any airman lynchings, German, British, American,

As the conventions protect those who have had the right to fight: regular soldiers (and the ones fulfilling all the article 2 of Hague Convention). And the civilians (non-combatants). The mobs seem to fall between these two groups. Unprotected. My opinion is that the Germans would have all the international right to punish members of these groups, for the crimes they committed, whenever caught.

Exactly, Juha.

It seems strange to say but these lynchings should be classified a " crime during war" than "war-crime".

Good Luck finding info on these German airmen, it might be worth it, if possible, perusing British newpapers speccific to the time and place,as I would bet the British would not have been absolutely squemish about reporting these cases, even if it led to repercusions when the same thing happen over German territory. Sounds like both sides would have at least deplored the actions of the other side so maybe in this case propaganda reports would actually contain more truth than other media.

I feel that no airmen have a right to complain, since they were "accidentally" dropping bombs on civilians , I fail to see being able to hold civilians for "accidentally" killing down airmen. Nasty aspect of mixing war, civilians, and soldiers together.

Juha Tompuri · Post by **Juha Tompuri** » 16 Dec 2003 21:29

ChristopherPerrien wrote: Nasty aspect of mixing war, civilians, and soldiers together.

I agree

Regards, Juha

vogelbird · Post by **vogelbird** » 16 Dec 2003 22:32

I know of one such case. A few years ago an elderly lady told me of a memory she had of a German aircraft that came down here in Birmingham. She was only a young girl at the time, but she remembered it well because a mob fell upon the remaining crewmember (his comrade was dead) and she heard him protesting, "I had to do it..." He was beaten to death. She was given his epaulettes as a souvenir but she was so upset by the episode that she could not keep them and thought only of his family back in Germany. These things ALWAYS happen in war!!
Vogelbird

Lobscouse · Post by **Lobscouse** » 17 Dec 2003 08:12

What I see from some posts is that the murder of downed Allied airmen can easily be proven, because their murderers were brought to account after the war.

No one can prove that the DCLI or any British civilians ever murdered any downed German airmen.

Panzermahn · Post by **Panzermahn** » 17 Dec 2003 10:27

No one can prove that the DCLI or any British civilians ever murdered any downed German airmen.

It is because British government never released files regarding to this matter to the public even until now..

For example according to a book i had (Greatest blunders in WW2, William. sorry i forgot his last name) mentioned some incidents where the overzealous british Home Guard shot and killed a Polish airmen who baled out from his Spitfire in thinking that every baled out airmen is a german airmen.

Besides, david Irving also mentioned that in 1942, some German POWs were shot in England WITHOUT TRIAL but the files regarding this were still classified until now...

(Rise and Fall of the Luftwaffe: Biography of erhard milch)

Lobscouse · Post by **Lobscouse** » 18 Dec 2003 06:03

That is what's so nice about being on the winning side.

Kaan Caglar · Post by **Kaan Caglar** » 18 Dec 2003 18:31

Lobscouse wrote:That is what's so nice about being on the winning side.

Isnt that the reason why we still discuss what REALLY happened?? We cant be sure what is true or what is a myth. Thats because the winning side can cover the truth and create myths.
Regards
Kaan

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Lynching of Luftwaffe airmen by British mobs

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