Lynching of Luftwaffe airmen by British mobs

Juha Tompuri · Post by **Juha Tompuri** » 18 Dec 2003 19:08

Lobscouse wrote:That is what's so nice about being on the winning side.

Did you mean hiding the truth or protecting the criminals? Or both?

Regards, Juha

Rob - wssob2 · Post by **Rob - wssob2** » 18 Dec 2003 19:42

Civilians fall under no such rules and "crimes of passion" are not only to be expected but excused.

Umm... so German criminal law wouldn't be applicable here? Or were German civilians allowed to kill whomever they wanted, whenever they wanted, for whatever reason, regardless of the circumstances?

BTW from a military standpoint, wouldn't it be better to have captured airmen kept alive instead of killed by a mob? Can't get much intelligence value out of a lynched victim.

No one can prove that the DCLI or any British civilians ever murdered any downed German airmen.

As of yet it doesn't seem that anyone's been able to come up with any documented sources to back that claim.

For example according to a book i had (Greatest blunders in WW2, William. sorry i forgot his last name) mentioned some incidents where the overzealous british Home Guard shot and killed a Polish airmen who baled out from his Spitfire in thinking that every baled out airmen is a german airmen.

Sounds like a sad case of mistaken identity, rather than a deliberate case of Home Guard ruthlessness.

Specifically, a 1944 decree by the Minister of Propaganda, Dr. Joseph Goebbels, stating that military guards were not to protect Allied airmen (considered to be murderers) from civilians.

In other words, a high-ranking government minister of the Third Reich ordered that captured Allied airmen not be protected from harm while in government or military custody. That doesn't sound like an isolated and unfortunate incident of mob justice but a deliberate and criminal order violating international law.

Note that in two of the examples Englander provided, the captured Allied airman were not attacked immediately upon capture but were in the custody of government and or military officials, and deliberately marched through populated areas to provoke a "response." The government and military officials then not only did not adequately protect their prisoners from harm, but in the case of the Nazi party official, actively participated in their murder.

Isnt that the reason why we still discuss what REALLY happened?? We cant be sure what is true or what is a myth.

Wrong. We are completely able to separate fact from myth, depending on how willing we are to research the subject impartially, provide documentary evidence and consult a variety of historical sources.

Thats because the winning side can cover the truth and create myths.

Wrong again. The whole "it's a conspiracy theory/cover up" is just an method to proclaim one's position correct when one is unwilling or unable to rely on scholarship instead of speculation.

I would imagine that incidents of mob violence did on occasion occur, perpetrated by UK civilians against bailed-out Luftwaffe airmen as per Vogelbird's example. But I think the crucial factor to research is UK government's policies towards capturing Axis airmen. I doubt one would find anything as criminal as Goebbel's order. I suspect one would find much documentation regarding how to capture and transport captured airmen safely and securely.

When the Brits were capturing Luftwaffe airmen in 1940-42, Germans were capturing British airmen as well, so there definitely was an unwritten quid pro quo understanding between the
two belligerents (i.e. "we'll treat your guys OK if you treat our guys' OK")

However, in the 1944-45 period the increased size, savagery and effectiveness of the Allied bombing campaign against Germany, coupled with the increasingly ineffectiveness of the Luftwaffe to prevent the attacks or retaliate in kind, certainly created circumstances in which German civilians would be more likely to participate in spontaneous acts of violence against captured allied crewmen. And the NSDAP government cultivated that violence instead of providing adequate protection to captured airmen as stipulated by international agreement.

Lobscouse · Post by **Lobscouse** » 19 Dec 2003 05:52

Juha.

Just lost a few paragraphs, by clicking the BACK instead of the SUBMIT.
Dammit.
Anyway, I simply meant that the victors do not have to answer to any charges of criminality.
Rob-wssob. If the downed German airman appeared on any stretch of beach guarded by any British Army unit then some reference to it would, or should, be found in that unit's War Diary. Of course, these are classified military documents, and not broadcast widely.

Your quid pro quo remarks are very useful in understanding the situation that existed then.

ChristopherPerrien · Post by **ChristopherPerrien** » 20 Dec 2003 01:20

Umm... so German criminal law wouldn't be applicable here?

Sure it is applicable, read my posts, and sure charges should have been pressed but I seriously doubt any punishment would become of such actions , primarliy because of the "crimes of passion" idea/defence/reason/whatever.

Or were German civilians allowed to kill whomever they wanted, whenever they wanted, for whatever reason, regardless of the circumstances?

This doesn't merit a reply

Jacky Kingsley · Post by **Jacky Kingsley** » 25 Dec 2003 16:59

Hi Iltis

Do you have a date for the East Wittering beach murder? If so I'll have a local investigation but if the event has been hushed up as a result of government involvement I won't find anything. Usually such an event would be in the local paper - usually listed as 'somewhere on the Sussex coastline' but if it was in our local I'll soon find it.

I'll also try and find a few locals and see what they know. I only live 7-8 miles from East Wittering.

Jacky

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 26 Dec 2003 18:25

In reply to Michael Miller-

I tried to research this but found no record of action taken, I guess that if the Germans had invaded in 1940 then these people would have been charged with war crimes.

Pete

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 26 Dec 2003 18:27

Hi Jacky

East Wittering

On 26 Aug 1940 a Heinkel He111 of 4 Staffel, Kampfgeschwader 55 based at Chartres in France was shot down by RAF fighters and was crash landed by its wounded pilot Leutnant Albert Metzger on the beach at East Wittering in Sussex. Metzger couldnt get out of the bomber due to wounds but his crew Uffz. Rudolf Schandner (Observer), Fw. Julius Urhahn (Flight Mechanic), Uffz. Rudi Paas (Radio Operator) and Flgr. Rudolf Fessel (Gunner) climbed out to surrender to A Company, 2nd Battalion, Duke of Cornwalls Light Infantry. They were all shot dead on the beach.

Pete

PS There is virtually nothing in the DCLI War Diary

Jacky Kingsley · Post by **Jacky Kingsley** » 21 Jan 2004 22:23

Hi

I have checked for a few weeks after the crash in the local paper, the Chichester Observer and found nothing mentioned for that particular incident but I have found a photograph and note in the book 'Battle over Sussex' by Pat Burgess and Andy Saunders (Midhurst: Middleton Press, June 1990)

David Brown · Post by **David Brown** » 21 Jan 2004 23:18

panzermahn wrote:
For example according to a book i had (Greatest blunders in WW2, William. sorry i forgot his last name) mentioned some incidents where the overzealous british Home Guard shot and killed a Polish airmen who baled out from his Spitfire in thinking that every baled out airmen is a german airmen.

Yes, this is very true but it was more to do with the fact that because it was during the Battle of Britain and he could speak very little English, local people who appeared on the scene thought he was a German because of the way he spoke. The member of the Home Guard concerned was trying to arrest him but as a result of all the pushing, shoving, pulling, and jossling of the crowd, in all the confusion that was caused, his rifle was discharged and the airman was fatally wounded.

Dave

Panzermahn · Post by **Panzermahn** » 22 Jan 2004 05:14

Hi Jacky,

Thanks for the newspaper scan..But i don't get it....rumour subsequently disaproved?

What is the basis of this?

Thanks again for the scan

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 22 Jan 2004 12:54

I think that we are seeing damage limitation 1940 style, nice one Jacky !

Presumably the shooting had civilian witnesses who could not be simply told to stay quiet so the newspaper might have been told (under wartime controls they could be ordered what to print) to print this.

FASCINATING

Pete

Jacky Kingsley · Post by **Jacky Kingsley** » 25 Jan 2004 14:15

Hi Iltis

I sent you two private e-mails round about Christmas. Bracklesham Bay is about two miles along the coast from East Wittering. As they are both little villages I don't think it matters too much. Would you like me to contact the printer? I would like to ask them for a contact number for the authors. It will be interesting to find out their source. Especially as nothing was in the local paper. It appears that all the other incursions by the enemy were mentioned - although the place may be not. It would be interesting to find out how the rumour started. Did the pilot survive?

Jacky

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 25 Jan 2004 14:28

Hi Jacky
sorry mate, had some PC problems over Christmas upgrading from 95 to 2000 and lost lots of stuff.

I understand one crewman lived and believe that thew others are still buried in the UK, I had the names a while ago I'll try to find them and see what is shown.

cheers
Pete

Jacky Kingsley · Post by **Jacky Kingsley** » 30 Jan 2004 19:45

Hi Iltis

Shall I contact the publisher?

Jacky

Panzermahn · Post by **Panzermahn** » 09 Apr 2011 11:33

Does anyone know about the leather case which contains the personal belongings and document of Oberleutnant Robert Zehbe which is kept in the Metropolitan Police until today?

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/s ... 867&page=4

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Lynching of Luftwaffe airmen by British mobs

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