KZ staff arrested at Belsen

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KZ staff arrested at Belsen

#1

Post by Researcher » 20 Jun 2002, 22:50

When the Brits liberated Bergen-Belsen they identified 86 staff including SS guards and 28 women.

By 17 June 1945, 20 had died from suicide or the rigours of burying 'their' victims.

What do you suppose happened to the 20 that perished? Were relatives informed and the bodies given up for burial or were they simply tossed into the mass graves without ID and the whole episode covered up?

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#2

Post by Schmauser » 21 Jun 2002, 02:28

I always assumed there were only about 40 to 50 SS guards who served at Belsen. Do you have any info on who these men or women were, names, ranks etc?

~Regards Schmauser


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Re: KZ staff arrested at Belsen

#3

Post by landserone » 21 Jun 2002, 03:10

Researcher wrote:When the Brits liberated Bergen-Belsen they identified 86 staff including SS guards and 28 women.

By 17 June 1945, 20 had died from suicide or the rigours of burying 'their' victims.

What do you suppose happened to the 20 that perished? Were relatives informed and the bodies given up for burial or were they simply tossed into the mass graves without ID and the whole episode covered up?

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Well, I imagne that on the British side no one really gave a hoot to the German Staff's plite. Personally I don't think any effort was made to contact anyone. I would not say it was covered up, as far as thier deaths go. I just think no one cared because of what was found at Belsen.

Personally, those that died at least got a chance to bury those they let perish or killed out right. If they couldn't handle it and comitted Suicide all the better.

I see nothing sinister to thier deaths though.

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War is an extension of state policy by other means!!

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Re: KZ staff arrested at Belsen

#4

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Jun 2002, 04:19

landserone wrote:
Researcher wrote:By 17 June 1945, 20 had died from suicide or the rigours of burying 'their' victims.
If they couldn't handle it and comitted Suicide all the better.

I see nothing sinister to thier deaths though.
How is this any different from the Nazis working people to death? Because the victims in the one case might have been Jews and in the other they were Germans...
:?

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Re: KZ staff arrested at Belsen

#5

Post by landserone » 21 Jun 2002, 06:57

Scott Smith wrote:
landserone wrote:
Researcher wrote:By 17 June 1945, 20 had died from suicide or the rigours of burying 'their' victims.
If they couldn't handle it and comitted Suicide all the better.

I see nothing sinister to thier deaths though.
How is this any different from the Nazis working people to death? Because the victims in the one case might have been Jews and in the other they were Germans...
:?
Ok, this is how its differant. 1) You enter a camp with hunderds if not thousands of unburied and roting bodies laying around. 2) Thousands of people on the verge of death. 3) You find the healthy, well fed staff on hand who dealt out that mass death.
You think they should have been treated like POW's or what? You think they should have been shown the mercy they didn't show thier inmates?
Thats all nonsense, I call it justice. I think they should have been turned over to the victims and let them deal out a fitting justice. Instead they got a chance to sweat to death cleaning up thier handy work and those that finished and survived most got off light.

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Re: KZ staff arrested at Belsen

#6

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Jun 2002, 10:03

landserone wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:
landserone wrote:
Researcher wrote:By 17 June 1945, 20 had died from suicide or the rigours of burying 'their' victims.
If they couldn't handle it and comitted Suicide all the better.

I see nothing sinister to thier deaths though.
How is this any different from the Nazis working people to death? Because the victims in the one case might have been Jews and in the other they were Germans...
:?
Ok, this is how its differant. 1) You enter a camp with hunderds if not thousands of unburied and roting bodies laying around. 2) Thousands of people on the verge of death. 3) You find the healthy, well fed staff on hand who dealt out that mass death.
You think they should have been treated like POW's or what? You think they should have been shown the mercy they didn't show thier inmates?
Thats all nonsense, I call it justice. I think they should have been turned over to the victims and let them deal out a fitting justice. Instead they got a chance to sweat to death cleaning up thier handy work and those that finished and survived most got off light.
It may seem hard to believe but not all prisoners are unjustly confined, even in Nazi Germany.

The crusading liberators find bodies, and because they are in a German camp they are necessarily victims not of circumstance or disease but of lack of mercy?

Who determines these facts, the mob?

Who adjudicates this, the victors?

Anybody punished for this atrocity, which likely would not have occurred had the victors not been so believing of their own propaganda of moral superiority?

Anybody punished for the ethnic Germans who died like flies while interned in postwar camps by the Poles?

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#7

Post by landserone » 21 Jun 2002, 12:04

Who Adjuticates those crimes, the Victors? That was your question, with loud and resounding YES!!

If you,( and I mean anyone who disagrees with that statement) don't like that then don't start wars of conquest, don't commit crimes against the people you conquer, and above all that...DON'T LOSE THE WAR.

Now is that not to say War is not ugly on all sides, NO. Is that to say the Soviets were not just as bad as the Nazis, NO. All the above is true, thats war and there are winners and losers and sometimes the combatants are actually very similar, ( ie. Nazis and Soviets) in thier brutality of eachother, thier own people and those they conquer.

You mentioned Ethnic Germans and the treatment by the Poles after the war. Like I said, Don't Lose the War. If you don't think that a once a conquered people, are not going to extract some sort of revenge against thier conquerours, then I think you are a little on the innocent side.

There was no Propaganda to swallow, or believe. Western Allied troops were in that war to win it and go home. What they saw of Nazis occupation in France, Holland, Belguim, Poland, and the rest I am sure no propaganda would have found the words for.

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#8

Post by Roberto » 21 Jun 2002, 12:27

Scott Smith wrote:It may seem hard to believe but not all prisoners are unjustly confined, even in Nazi Germany.
I wonder just how many of those who perished at Belsen were “justly” confined there by the apologist’s standards.
Scott Smith wrote:The crusading liberators find bodies, and because they are in a German camp they are necessarily victims not of circumstance or disease but of lack of mercy?
No, that just happens to be what the evidence made out:
I. The Belsen Camp
Over and over, Jeff Roberts ([email protected]) has told us that the Third Reich had "no deliberate policy of starvation," "still no evidence of a deliberate policy," etc. Many other "revisionists" believe this as well.
This despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The Belsen camp, at the time of its capture, was filled with 60,000 inmates at the brink of death from starvation. Meanwhile, the Wehrmacht was hoarding hundreds of tons of food a mere two miles away. (Belsen was the first camp discovered by the Western Allies; if you've seen movies of bulldozers pushing emaciated corpses into mass graves, they were probably taken at Belsen.)
When confronted with this fact, Mr. Roberts responded that the inmates:
...did not die of starvation. Most died of disease. And that food was about one weeks supply. The question is about food. But most of the inmates died of typhus, not starvation.
(Roberts, Jeff. Usenet article "Re: Food supplies in the camps", id [email protected]. June 15, 1995)
So far, Mr. Roberts is being pretty disingenuous. It's common knowledge that poor nutrition lowers one's immune system, and starvation drastically so. Whether an inmate managed to resist disease long enough to die from sheer weakness is an issue only to those who will seize upon any excuse to defend the Nazis.
And such flawed argumentation is not unique to Mr. Roberts. More recently, another "revisionist" pooh-poohed the idea that starvation was to blame for the hideous death toll, and issued this callous challenge:
Find me one picture of an emaciated inmate with the requisite swollen belly of the starving. You won't find one. The inmates are emaciated because they were passing their bodily fluids anally to and past fatal levels. Literally, they shit themselves to death as a side effect of the epidemic raging at Belsen.
The argument, boiled down to its essense, is that typhus is an act of God. Because inmate deaths were "a side effect" of this, the Nazis -- who had imprisoned them in a filthy, overcrowded camp with little food or medicine -- are not culpable. This is an apologetic of the worst kind.
But Mr. Roberts, unlike his colleague, was at least honest enough to allow how withholding food might reduce resistance to disease:
Typhus is caused by lice. Healthy people will not catch it. But people on short rations, [the rations had been reduced from 1000 to 600 calories at this time], in overcrowded conditions, and poor sanitation, and not de-loused, will die very quickly.
This is correct. The problem was that 60,000 people were fed insufficiently, and this problem manifested itself with a variety of symptoms: from emaciation, to lowered immunity, to typhus, to death.
We must not let the varying symptoms blind us to the root causes. One of the major problems was the lack of sufficient food. Others were the overcrowding and the lack of sanitation.
All these problems were caused by the Nazis' policy of forcing innocent people, far too many people, into too-small camps, with too-little attention paid to their care. There is no denying this. This is the real crime of the Nazis; exactly how the victims died is a detail.

II. The Food Store
But specifically regarding starvation, we turn to the large supply of food found outside the Belsen camp. Even if the food was only one week's supply, the question is: why was it not given to the inmates? The Nazi soldiers found in the area were not starving. There is a famous photograph of the plump SS women who were captured at Belsen.
To be sure, food was not plentiful, but the hoard that was discovered was excess food, food that was not eaten by the German army or civilians. It was not part of the stream of food that flowed from croplands into people's mouths; it was just sitting in a huge storehouse, not being eaten.
Even if would have prolonged life for everyone at Belsen by just one week -- that week would have been enough time to save many lives.
But would it have been just a week? Perhaps Mr. Roberts thinks so. Mr. Roberts, however, has not done research into the caloric content of the various foods in that storehouse. I have.
My figures below come from Margo Feiden's The Calorie Factor, by Margo Feiden, New York, Simon and Schuster, 1989. I've done all the arithmetic to convert tons to pounds etc., and I've divided the results by 60,000, the number of people in the camp at liberation. All figures given, if they err, err conservatively -- I'm taking into account the poor quality of nutrition available in central Europe in early-mid '45.
There were 600 tons of potatoes, which would have provided 5180 calories per person.
The 120 tons of tinned meat would have provided 4140. I'm using a figure for standard-grade beef, unboned, on the theory that the tinned meat was deboned but that the tins weighed about as much as the bones would.
The 30 tons of sugar, 1680 calories per person.
The 20 tons of powdered milk, 850.
The bakery could produce 60,000 loaves daily, and a small loaf of bread is about 800 calories -- I'm unsure whether to include that, because a source of grain for the bakery was listed as being in the store, but not quantified. We know Kramer got 10,000 loaves a week, which is 150 calories per person per week. Note that the 10,000 loaves a week was nowhere near the full production of the bakery. I'm assuming that the remaining 97.6% production capacity of the bakery was not fully usable due to lack of flour. I actually do not believe this is true, since that same bakery was feeding the Wehrmacht. I suspect that more that 2.4% of the capacity could have been siphoned off to the camp, if it had been a priority.
Of course it was not a priority, because the Untermenschen in the Belsen camp could not receive food before the racially-pure German people in the Wehrmacht and in the nearby towns and villages.
I won't count the unquantified "cocoa, grain, wheat and other foodstuffs," though cocoa powder ranges from 28 to 46 calories per inmate per ton, depending on its fat content. Each twenty tons of cocoa powder would have been another day of life for 60,000 people.
That's a total of 11,850 calories per person, excluding the meager weekly bread supply.
Generally speaking, the number of calories per person per day, counting only the supplies found in the store and the known output of the bakery (which is 40 times under its capacity), are 21+11850/d where d is the number of days the food is spread out.
Mr. Roberts notes that the inmates' food supply had been reduced to 600 calories per day. It's also worth noting that Hans Frank's diary mentions that figure as the caloric allotment for the Poles which was leaving them open for disease:
Obermedizinalrat Dr. Walbaum expresses his opinion of the health condition of the Polish population. Investigations which were carried out by his department proved that the majority of Poles eat only about 600 calories, whereas the normal requirement for a human being is 2,200 calories. The Polish population was enfeebled to such an extent that it would fall an easy prey to spotted fever...
Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Vol. IV, p. 909, document 2233-PS, diary entry of September 9, 1941
The last line could be a premonition of what would happen in Belsen and other Nazi camps a few years later:
If the food rations were to be diminished again, an enormous increase off the number of illnesses could be predicted.
So using 600 calories per day -- starvation rations -- we solve for d and get 20.5 days.
Three weeks' worth of food for 60,000 people was locked up two miles away from Belsen. Horrible. At least three weeks of food, because it doesn't include the cocoa, grain, wheat, or the remaining bakery production capacity.
If this is not de facto evidence for a policy of starvation, I don't know what is. The camp commandant talked about sending out five trucks to pick up food, but being denied because it was reserved for the Wehrmacht. But even without the commandant's testimony, it's obvious that only orders from above could have prevented a camp official with a heart from simply taking the trucks and delivering food to the camp. Or, if the Nazis cared about the inmates at all, they could have released a few hundred healthy prisoners under guard, and had them carry food to the rest.

III. The Policy
But if the aim is to prove Nazi intent to starve undesirables, we do not need to rely on the facts in evidence when the camps were freed. The Nazis' own documentation makes the case against them.
The case is laid out in other entries of Hans Frank's diary, as cited above. Italics appear in NCA, but boldface is my emphasis.
p. 893:
FRANK DIARY, Conference Volume,
Cabinet session in Cracow on 24 August 1942
Cabinet session in the Great Conference Room of the Government Building in Cracow
Monday, 24 August 1942
Subject: A new Plan for seizure and for food [Ernaehrung] of the General Gouvernement
The General Gouvernement was Nazi-occupied Poland.
p. 894:
A few days ago a meeting with the Reich Marshal took place in Berlin. The Reich Marshal had the reports concerning the almost catastrophic developments in the food situation in Germany. According to all confidential reports of the police, as well as of the Gauleiter, which, as he expressed himself, also confirmed by his own experiences, the situation is as follows: unless a considerable improvement in the food situation in Germany can be achieved in a short time, serious consequences to the health of the people, especially the German working people, would result. [...]
Under these circumstances you probably will not be surprised that the saying now has become true: Before the German people are to experience starvation, the occupied territories and their people shall be exposed to starvation.
p. 895:
The new demand will be fulfilled exclusively at the expense of the foreign population. It must be done cold-bloodedly and without pity; for this contribution of the General Government is still more important this year since the occupied Eastern territories -- Ukraine and Ostland -- will not yet be able to make an important contribution toward the relief of Germany's food problem. For this reason I wanted to acquaint you, Gentlemen, here in this governmental session with the decisions which I have made known today to Party member Naumann. You will essentially find an addition increase of the quota of foodstuffs to be shipped to Germany and new regulations for the feeding of the population; especially of the Jews and of the Polish population, whereby, if possible, the provisioning of the working people, especially of those working for German interests, shall be maintained.
p. 896:
The feeding of a Jewish population, estimated heretofore at 1.5 million, drops off to an estimated total of 300,000 Jews, who still work for German interests as craftsmen or otherwise. For these the Jewish rations, including certain special allotments which have proved necessary for the maintenance of working capacity, will be retained. The other Jews, a total of 1.2 million, will no longer be provided with foodstuffs.
p. 900:
In whatever difficulties you observe some place here, in the form of the sicknesses of your workers, the breakdown of your associations, etc., you must always think of the fact that it is still much better when a Pole breaks down than that a German succumb. That we sentence 1.2 million Jews to die of hunger should be noted only marginally. It is a matter, of course, that should the Jews not starve to death it would, we hope, result in a speeding up of anti-Jewish measures.
I point out incidentally that the document ends with very explicit reference to the Final Solution:
p. 902:
Not unimportant manpower has been taken from us in form of our old proven Jewish communities. It is clear that the working program is made difficult when in the middle of the program, during the war, the order for complete annihilation of the Jews is given. The responsibility for this cannot be placed upon the government of the General Government. The directive for the annihilation of the Jews comes from higher quarters.
As conclusion, I'd like to read from Primo Levi's Survival in Auschwitz, Collier Books, New York, 1993, p. 74. From chapter 7, "A Good Day."
But how could one imagine not being hungry? The Lager is hunger: we ourselves are hunger, living hunger.
On the other side of the road a steam-shovel is working. Its mouth, hanging from its cables, opens wide its steel jaws, balances a moment as if uncertain in its choice, then rushes upon the soft, clayey soil and snaps it up voraciously, while a satisfied snort of thick white smoke rises from its control cabin. Then it rises, turns half around, vomits backwards its mouthful and begins again.
Leaning on our shovels, we stop to watch, fascinated. At every bite of its mouth our mouths also open, our Adam's apples dance up and down, wretchedly visible under the flaccid skin. We are unable to tear ourselves away from the sight of the steam-shovel's meal.
Sigi is seventeen years old and is hungrier than everybody, although he is given a little soup every evening by his probably not disinterested protector. He had begun to speak of his home in Vienna and of his mother, but then he slipped on to the subject of food and now he talks endlessly about some marriage luncheon and remembers with genuine regret that he failed to finish his third plate of bean soup. And everyone tells him to keep quiet, but within ten minutes Bela is describing his Hungarian countryside and the fields of maize and a recipe to make meat-pies with corncobs and lard and spices and...and he is cursed, sworn at and a third one begins to describe...
How weak our flesh is! I am perfectly well aware how vain these fantasies of hunger are, but dancing before my eyes I see the spaghetti which we had just cooked, Vanda, Luciana, Franco and I, at the sorting-camp when we suddenly heard the news that we would leave for here the following day; and we were eating it (it was so good, yellow, filling), and we stopped, fools, stupid as we were -- if we had only known! And if it happened again ... Absurd. If there is one thing sure in this world it is certainly this: that it will not happen to us a second time.


Source of quote:

A Policy of Deliberate Starvation
by Jamie McCarthy

http://www.holocaust-history.org/~jamie ... tion.shtml

The records of the Belsen trial can be read under the following link:

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/belsen1.htm

Some of the justly confined prisoners at Belsen:

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Looking forward to the “such things happen in war” – baloney.

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Unconditional Surrender...

#9

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Jun 2002, 12:57

landserone wrote:DON'T LOSE THE WAR.
That's good advice. Something to remember in the next war when some may want to surrender unconditionally.
You mentioned Ethnic Germans and the treatment by the Poles after the war. Like I said, Don't Lose the War. If you don't think that a once a conquered people, are not going to extract some sort of revenge against thier conquerours, then I think you are a little on the innocent side.
That's good advice too. I'll bet in 1939 the Poles and Jews had wished they had followed your advice.
:)

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Re: Unconditional Surrender...

#10

Post by Roberto » 21 Jun 2002, 13:17

Scott Smith wrote:I'll bet in 1939 the Poles and Jews had wished they had followed your advice.
:)
Smith obviously sees the Poles and Jews as conquerors on whom the Nazis exacted some sort of revenge. Another instructive statement for my list of Smithsonian quotes. Thanks a lot.

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Moral Certainty...

#11

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Jun 2002, 13:37

Roberto wrote:Some of the justly confined prisoners
Image

Yeah, ALL of them were unjustly confined. I guess there were no security risks, enemy aliens, or ordinary criminals in Nazi Germany to incarcerate--or were they all in the government and the military? :mrgreen:

Irma, she-wolf of the SS!

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Any steamed, soaped or gassed in your body-stinkpile, Roberto?

Any typhus deaths in WWI, before WWII, or after VE day?

Or does disease only occur under the Nazi watch?

Just curious...
Looking forward to the “such things happen in war” – baloney.
Not exclusively, but for sure it's a summation in part.

Oh, the Greuelpropaganda...
:cry:

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Re: Unconditional Surrender...

#12

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Jun 2002, 13:47

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:I'll bet in 1939 the Poles and Jews had wished they had followed your advice.
:)
Smith obviously sees the Poles and Jews as conquerors on whom the Nazis exacted some sort of revenge. Another instructive statement for my list of Smithsonian quotes. Thanks a lot.
The Freikorps, formed clandestinely by the Weimar government to protect German minorities when the Reichswehr was impotent, certainly thought so. And they formed the basis of the original Nazis.
:)

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#13

Post by Roberto » 21 Jun 2002, 14:07

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:Some of the justly confined prisoners
Image

Yeah, ALL of them were unjustly confined. I guess there were no security risks, enemy aliens, or ordinary criminals in Nazi Germany to incarcerate--or were they all in the government and the military? :mrgreen:
My statement, which Smith conveniently avoided addressing, was the following:
I wonder just how many of those who perished at Belsen were “justly” confined there by the apologist’s standards.
As to the prisoners' taking revenge on their tormentors, that's an unjustified but understandable reaction. Unfortunately it sometimes hit the wrong people, especially at Dachau, where the camp guards had fled and revenge mostly hit their newly arrived replacements. But then, what do you expect of people who had seen and gone through stuff like this:

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Scott Smith wrote:[Any steamed, soaped or gassed in your body-stinkpile, Roberto?
No. Believe it or not, the Nazis killed most of their victims by placing them under living conditions that led to their death from starvation, exposure, disease or exhaustion. Next in line was outright killing by “traditional” methods such as shooting, hanging and burning, while the innovative method of gassing that Smith et al make such a fuss about accounted for less than one-fifth of the victims of Nazi violence against unarmed non-combatants outside the scope of combat actions. See my first post on the thread

Why the Jews and the gas chambers?
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 4f45da2795
Scott Smith wrote:Any typhus deaths in WWI, before WWII, or after VE day?

Just curious...
When you place someone under conditions that are likely to bring about his or her death from starvation, exposure, disease or exhaustion, the exact agent of death hardly matters.
Scott Smith wrote:Or does disease only occur under the Nazi watch?
No. But the conditions at Belsen and other places certainly did everything to encourage death by starvation or diseases related to undernourishment and lack of sanitation.

(The “such things happen in war” – bullshit, as I expected.)
Scott Smith wrote:Oh, the Greuelpropaganda...
One of the differences between Belsen and other concentration camps on the one hand and Andersonville, the bombing of Hamburg and Hiroshima on the other is that, in regard to the latter, you don’t find so many sorry freaks who write stuff like:
Scott Smith wrote:The crusading liberators find bodies, and because they are in a German camp they are necessarily victims not of circumstance or disease but of lack of mercy?

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Re: Unconditional Surrender...

#14

Post by Roberto » 21 Jun 2002, 14:14

Scott Smith wrote:The Freikorps, formed clandestinely by the Weimar government to protect German minorities when the Reichswehr was impotent, certainly thought so. And they formed the basis of the original Nazis.
Yeah, the Nazis descended from the Freikorps thugs.

And they thought it justified to murder hundreds of thousands of Polish men, women and children after 1939 because of some isolated outrages committed by Polish freebooters against the German minority in 1919, Smith tells us.

What is more, he endorses that supposed attitude (of course Nazi mass murder was mainly if not exclusively carried by other motivations than revenge).

Very instructive, once again. Keep digging. :aliengray

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Re: Unconditional Surrender...

#15

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Jun 2002, 14:31

Roberto wrote:Yeah, the Nazis descended from the Freikorps thugs.
And the "Freikorps thugs," of whom Guderian was one, were necessary because the Reichsheer had been virtually dismantled and the German State could not protect its interests from ordinary brigandage, some of which was encouraged by the Versailles powers themselves to effect ethnic-cleansing and remove Germans from lands which were no longer German.

After WWII, the Soviet Union itself was asked to play the role of the heavy to accomplish this Gruesome Harvest without pussyfooting around with unreliable "accidental" mobs, as the Democracy-Capitalist powers would have done.
:)

Better watch out for those Huns!

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