KZ staff arrested at Belsen

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Schmauser
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#31

Post by Schmauser » 23 Jun 2002, 16:25

Wouldn't it have been disrespectful to bury the SS with their victims? I can only assume that they were buried elsewhere and their families had to find out for themselves.

~Regards Schmauser

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#32

Post by Paddy Keating » 23 Jun 2002, 18:32

Very good reponse, Scott. Hmmmmm. Sharp mind there! I'll have to reflect a bit before coming back on it. But in the meantime, allow me to disabuse you of one important misconception:
You sound like the French whenever they realize that the lingua franca is now English: A sore loser.

and

The plight of the British empire is not my concern. What I object to is the American global policeman role, which we unfortunately inherited from you sore losers.


We're not "sore losers". Well, at least, I'm not. We're just not very impressed that you fellows, having achieved your aim of destroying the European empires as part of your global capaitalist ambitions and strategies, cannot seem to keep the natives in line.

At least when we ran the world, the natives knew their place and if they got uppity, it was nothing that a few volleys of rifle fire or a touch of cold steel couldn't sort out. Britain didn't lose the empire because she was not capable of supressing a few obstreperous wogs. She lost it because Uncle Sam had a gun to her head. Look at Suez in 1956. The British and French were achieving their objectives and the Americans forced Eden to cut and run.

But let's not get into this. It's water under the bridge. It'd be nice if, as the world's policeman, you lot could keep order. But you can't. I was in Kosova in 1999 and was able to compare the Americans there with the British - my old regiment, in fact - at first hand. From Wesley Clark downwards, to the tank officer I advised not to take his troop up a narrow mountain road in Northern Albania but who did anyway and got stuck, to the helicopter pilots flying into the only electric lines for hundreds of miles in any direction, to the pilots bombing Kosovar refugee convoys cos they mistook tractors and carts for T72s, to the GIs running from Arkan's Tigers when NATO finally moved in, the Americans were deeply unimpressive.

Compare that to the Germans on their first mission on foreign soil since WW2. Some Serb paramilitaries got lippy with them so the Germans machine-gunned their car, killing the lot of them. Or the British paras in Pristina who, faced with Serb gunmen and paramilitaries who threatened them and refused to leave the town, sprayed them all with machine-gun fire. Sorted! The Serbs legged it.

Swanning about the world giving it bags of John Wayne is fine if you can back it up. But you can't. So, yes, it would be wonderful if American isolationists had more power in the States. America would stay home and the world might be a safer place.

:D

PK


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#33

Post by Schmauser » 23 Jun 2002, 19:40

Prosper Keating wrote:At least when we ran the world, the natives knew their place and if they got uppity, it was nothing that a few volleys of rifle fire or a touch of cold steel couldn't sort out.
Hahahaha!! Good Stuff! :mrgreen:

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#34

Post by Dan » 23 Jun 2002, 23:26

Cold grey steel. Right. At Majuba Hill 150 Afrikaners attacked the Royal Marines and Gordon Highlanders who were in a dug in position with the advantage of terraine. Afterward the first couple minutes the British threw down their arms and ran, leaving 650 casualties. :lol:

The Boers lost 1 man dead and 2 wounded. 8)

This repeated itself 10 or 15 times over the course of the next 2 decades. :mrgreen:

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#35

Post by Roberto » 24 Jun 2002, 14:00

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:And the "Freikorps thugs," of whom Guderian was one, were necessary because the Reichsheer had been virtually dismantled and the German State could not protect its interests from ordinary brigandage, some of which was encouraged by the Versailles powers themselves to effect ethnic-cleansing and remove Germans from lands which were no longer German.
So the Nazis after 1939 butchered hundreds of thousands of Poles in retaliation for some "ordinary brigandage" in 1919. That's good to know. :aliengray
Scott Smith wrote:That was only the beginning of the conflict between the Germans and Poles, although they had a longer history with the Austrians and Prussians. I believe that the conflict could have been settled amicably without the British needing a pretext to restore the Versailles balance-of-power and giving the Poles a hypocritical guarantee, which thus made diplomacy over Danzig and minorities impossible.
What Smith believes has little to do with reality, as usual. There was hardly a possibility to settle the conflict amicably, given that Adolf used border disputes and Polish intransigence fueled by British guarantees as a mere pretext to do what he wanted to do anyway – take apart the Polish nation for the benefit of “80 million [German] people” who “must get their right” and whose “existence must be assured” (through the “living space” without which a great nation like Germany allegedly could not exist). At least this is what Hitler’s statements to his generals on 22 August 1939, prior to the attack on Poland, suggest:
Vernichtung Polens im Vordergrund. Ziel ist die Beseitigung der lebendigen Kräfte, nicht die Erreichung einer bestimmten Linie. Auch wenn im Westen Krieg ausbricht, bleibt Vernichtung Polens im Vordergrund. Mit Rücksicht auf Jahreszeit schnelle Entscheidung.
Ich werde propagandistischen Anlass zur Auslösung des Krieges geben, gleichgültig, ob glaubhaft. Der Sieger wird später nicht danach gefragt, ob er die Wahrheit gesagt hat oder nicht. Bei Beginn und Führung des Krieges kommt es nicht auf das Recht an, sondern auf den Sieg.
Herz verschliessen gegen Mitleid. Brutales Vorgehen. 80 Millionen Menschen müssen ihr Recht bekommen. Ihre Existenz muss gesichert werden. Grösste Härte. Schnelligkeit der Entscheidung notwendig. Festen Glauben an den deutschen Soldaten. Krisen nur auf Versagen der Nerven der Führer zurückzuführen.
Erste Forderung: Vordringen bis zur Weichsel und bis zum Narew. Unsere technische Überlegenheit wird die Nerven der Polen zerbrechen. Jede sich neu bildende lebendige polnische Kraft ist sofort zu vernichten. Fortgesetzte Zermürbung. Neue deutsche Grenzführung nach gesunden Gesichtspunkten, evtl. Protektorat als Vorgelände. Militärische Operationen nehmen auf diese Überlegungen keine Rücksicht. Restlose Zertrümmerung Polens ist das militärische Ziel. Schnelligkeit ist die Hauptsache. Verfolgung bis zur völligen Vernichtung.
Überzeugung, dass die deutsche Wehrmacht den Anforderungen gewachsen ist. Auslösung wird nocht befohlen ...
Source of quote: Ernst Klee / Willi Dressen, "Gott mit uns”: Der deutsche Vernichtungskrieg im Osten there is yet another summary of Hitler's statements at the afternoon meeting on the Obersalzberg on 22.8.1939. The document referred to is Nuernberg Document 1014-PS, IMT, Volume XXVI.

My translation:
The annihilation of Poland is the priority. The goal is the removal of living forces, not the reaching of a certain line. Even if war should break out in the West, the annihilation of Poland remains the priority. Considering the time of the year, a quick decision is required.
I shall provide for a propagandistic reason to unleash the war, regardless of whether it is credible or not. The victor is not asked at a later stage whether he told the truth or not. In beginning and conducting a war, what matters is not right but victory.
Close heart to pity. Brutal proceeding. 80 million people must get their right, Their existence must be assured.
Greatest harshness. Quick decision is necessary. Firm faith in the German soldier. Crises must only be attributed to commanders having lost their nerves.
First requirement: Advance to the Vistula and the Narev. Our technical superiority will break the nerves of the Poles. Every new Polish force forming must be immediately annihilated. Continuous attrition. New German frontier according to healthy criteria, eventually a protectorate as a buffer area. Military operations must not take these thoughts into consideration. The utter shattering of Poland is the military goal. Pursuit until complete annihilation.
Conviction that the German Wehrmacht is up to the task. Unleashing will yet be ordered ...
Emphasis is mine.
Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:After WWII, the Soviet Union itself was asked to play the role of the heavy to accomplish this Gruesome Harvest without pussyfooting around with unreliable "accidental" mobs, as the Democracy-Capitalist powers would have done. :)
Is that so, Mr. Smith? Who asked them to do so, in what part exactly did the Soviets play in the expulsion of ethnic Germans from Czechoslovakia, Poland and other countries of Eastern Europe?
Scott Smith wrote:It was under the aegis of the Red Army and authorized by Yalta and Potsdam,
Not much in the way of the Soviet Union being “asked asked to play the role of the heavy to accomplish this Gruesome Harvest without pussyfooting around with unreliable ‘accidental’ mobs”, is there? As a matter of fact, it was the governments and the “accidental mobs” of the Eastern European countries involved – mainly Poland and Czechoslovakia, the latter of which wasn’t even Communist at the time – which brought about the expulsion tragedy, not the Soviet government or armed forces.
Scott Smith wrote:or does the neo-German Roberto


Very proudly so. If I were a Nazi apologist like Smith, on the other hand, I’d throw up every morning when looking into the mirror.
Scott Smith wrote:pretend not to know the meaning of the term, Gruesome Harvest?
:)
We are talking about the expulsion of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe after World War II, aren’t we? A phenomenon regarding which, as it concerns crimes of others than his beloved Nazis, Smith piously believes everything he reads in however tendentious sources, notwithstanding the fact that evidence to the expulsion horrors is far more sparse than the evidence to the crimes of the Nazis he refuses to look at, and not nearly as conclusive.

Don’t delude yourself, Reverend. Though I don’t use colorful propaganda terms coined by David Irving or some other enlightened spirit, I probably know a lot more about the events behind such terms than you do.

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GRUESOME HARVEST...

#36

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Jun 2002, 07:01

Roberto wrote:Don’t delude yourself, Reverend. Though I don’t use colorful propaganda terms coined by David Irving or some other enlightened spirit, I probably know a lot more about the events behind such terms than you do.
The phrase goes back to the Cold War, Mr. Comrade. This is from the Library of Congress, not from Mr. Irving.

From: Library of Congress
Author: Keeling, Ralph Franklin, 1901-
Title: Gruesome Harvest, by Franklin Keeling.
Publisher: Chicago, Institute of American economics, 1947.
Description: viii, 140 p. 23 cm.
Notes: "Reference notes": p. 137-140.
DBCN: 7412872
Subject(s): Germany--History--1945-1955.
Reconstruction (1939-1951)--Germany.

No, the Communists didn't help enforce the Yalta/Potsdam agreements at all, did they... But the idea that the Gruesome Harvest of German ethnic-cleansing was enforced by the Polish/Czech puppet states instead of G.I.s only reinforces my point.
:P

The Self-Determination of Peoples...

CLICK! Image

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#37

Post by Paddy Keating » 25 Jun 2002, 08:58

Dan wrote:
Cold grey steel. Right. At Majuba Hill 150 Afrikaners attacked the Royal Marines and Gordon Highlanders who were in a dug in position with the advantage of terraine. Afterward the first couple minutes the British threw down their arms and ran, leaving 650 casualties.

The Boers lost 1 man dead and 2 wounded.

This repeated itself 10 or 15 times over the course of the next 2 decades.
Oh, that was OK. The Boers were white. I'm talking about keeping darkies in line. Not Black people - whose honour and bravery is in no doubt - but half-baked types...the ones who cause most of the trouble in the world. Wogs. Arabs etcetera...

Could you be more specific, by the way. Could you refer in detail to the "10 or 15 times" that this occurred from 1900 to 1920?

:mrgreen:

PK

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#38

Post by Roberto » 25 Jun 2002, 13:11

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:Don’t delude yourself, Reverend. Though I don’t use colorful propaganda terms coined by David Irving or some other enlightened spirit, I probably know a lot more about the events behind such terms than you do.
Scott Smith wrote:The phrase goes back to the Cold War, Mr. Comrade.
Poor Smith. Sometimes I truly feel sorry for the fellow.
Scott Smith wrote:This is from the Library of Congress, not from Mr. Irving.
I see. Not an enlightened spirit, but a Cold Warrior.
Scott Smith wrote:No, the Communists didn't help enforce the Yalta/Potsdam agreements at all, did they...
Did I say they didn’t?
Scott Smith wrote: But the idea that the Gruesome Harvest of German ethnic-cleansing was enforced by the Polish/Czech puppet states instead of G.I.s only reinforces my point. ...
The point Smith was trying to make was the following:
Scott Smith wrote: After WWII, the Soviet Union itself was asked to play the role of the heavy to accomplish this Gruesome Harvest without pussyfooting around with unreliable "accidental" mobs, as the Democracy-Capitalist powers would have done.
Unable to show what active role the Soviet Union is supposed to have played in the expulsion of ethnic Germans, Smith grabs the straw of calling the Polish and Czech postwar governments “puppet states”.

Never mind that Czechoslovakia wasn’t even Communist at the time.

Never mind that the Polish government’s ethnic cleansing resulted from hatred cumulated during the Nazi occupation and from the westward shift of the Polish frontier, Poland being compensated for territories lost in the East to Russia with areas taken away from Germany.

Historical events must be as Smith would like them to be.

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ALLIED ETHNIC CLEANSING...

#39

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Jun 2002, 15:00

Hi Roberto,

Both Poland and Czecho-Slovakia were puppet-states whose sovereignty had been restored at the pleasure of the Allies, and under the aegis of the Soviet Union. By 1946, Churchill was even calling it an Iron Curtain. The Gruesome Harvest was accomplished by treaty with the Western powers, who let others play the heavies, not by "accidental" mobs. The ethnic-cleansing was spelled out, unlike at Versailles, which was ostensibly committed to the "self-determination of peoples," though not that of Germans in reality.
8O

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Re: ALLIED ETHNIC CLEANSING...

#40

Post by Roberto » 25 Jun 2002, 18:02

Scott Smith wrote: The Gruesome Harvest was accomplished by treaty with the Western powers, who let others play the heavies, not by "accidental" mobs.
No "accidental" mobs, for sure.

The governments of Poland and Czechoslovakia and thugs acting on their behalf and with their blessing turned what the Allies expected to be a "humane" expulsion into a nightmare of suffering and atrocities.

Of course I don't expect the planners of Operation Keelhaul to have cared much about that.

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Re: ALLIED ETHNIC CLEANSING...

#41

Post by Scott Smith » 25 Jun 2002, 19:44

Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote: The Gruesome Harvest was accomplished by treaty with the Western powers, who let others play the heavies, not by "accidental" mobs.
No "accidental" mobs, for sure.

The governments of Poland and Czechoslovakia and thugs acting on their behalf and with their blessing turned what the Allies expected to be a "humane" expulsion into a nightmare of suffering and atrocities.

Of course I don't expect the planners of Operation Keelhaul to have cared much about that.
Well, now you are coming around to my little ol' point: The Victorious Allies were not so saintly. It refreshing. It's about time.
:)

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Re: ALLIED ETHNIC CLEANSING...

#42

Post by Roberto » 25 Jun 2002, 21:19

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
Scott Smith wrote: The Gruesome Harvest was accomplished by treaty with the Western powers, who let others play the heavies, not by "accidental" mobs.
No "accidental" mobs, for sure.

The governments of Poland and Czechoslovakia and thugs acting on their behalf and with their blessing turned what the Allies expected to be a "humane" expulsion into a nightmare of suffering and atrocities.

Of course I don't expect the planners of Operation Keelhaul to have cared much about that.
Well, now you are coming around to my little ol' point: The Victorious Allies were not so saintly. It refreshing. It's about time.
:)
I never said the victorious Allies were knights in shining armor, did I?

My issue was the role the Soviet Union played in the expulsions. And I still see no evidence to it having been
asked to play the role of the heavy to accomplish this Gruesome Harvest without pussyfooting around with unreliable "accidental" mobs, as the Democracy-Capitalist powers would have done.

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Irma Greese of Belsen

#43

Post by varjag » 04 Jul 2002, 13:56

Scott Smith posted a pic of charming young Irma Greese - it doesn't do her justice, she was in fact a blonde.But not exactly everbodys 'dream
wife' eh?
There is a British documentary filmed of some of these 'she-wolfs' at
Belsen including a brief footage of an interview with one of them (not Irma).
What hit me is that they, the SS-women and men, reffered to Belsen as
'KaEll Belsen',i.e. KonzentrationsLager, not KaZet, as is popular today.
Was the standard German term for the camps KL's and not KZ's or did
they use both terms?
I have heard Germans,postwar, refer to them as KZ's, but some older
ones use the term KL?
Any clues?

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#44

Post by Birgitte Heuschkel » 04 Jul 2002, 14:41

I just read a book on the camps from 1934 (obviously before the really "fun" stuff started). That's definitely KL for short. Don't see the term KZ a single time in 900 pages.

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Re: Irma Greese of Belsen

#45

Post by schroedinger » 04 Jul 2002, 17:57

varjag wrote: Was the standard German term for the camps KL's and not KZ's or did
they use both terms?
The official acronym was "KL"; this you will find in all documents. Many people used "KZ" instead even during the time of the NS regime, so this acronym has sticked.

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