A thought to ponder on now that was brought up 57 years ago.

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landserone
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A thought to ponder on now that was brought up 57 years ago.

#1

Post by landserone » 22 Jun 2002, 01:13

I have read several of these boards and forums, I have seen many posts by revisionist and the like trying to explain away everything from German aggression to Genocide.
Earlier, today while running errands I was listening to a CBS broadcast of World News Today one week after the German surrender in 1945. The segment that I will write below, I thought was quite interesting that considering current and past posts on here. Interesting that 57 years ago, one week after the final surrender the revisionist and the blame placers starting rearing their ugly heads. The broadcast went as follows:

The mood of a defeated Germany bares of ominous similarity to the defeated Germany of 1918.
On the part of the German Leaders there is the same attempt to picture themselves as very decent fellows really, that they were simply doing their duty and would never willing harm a fly.
On the part of the German people there is the same powerful impulse to ignore the fact that starting a war is a crime and to search for some excuse for the defeat.
Both the leaders and the people are seeking to point the finger at someone else. It was not they but someone else was responsible for beginning the war and for losing it, and it was someone else who smashed all the unwritten laws of warfare and committed atrocities of a quality and quantity unknown before this the modern world.
These German reactions to defeat might have been expected there has been nothing in the German history over the past century which would have let us expect anything else, but there is another tendency among the German people which although it parallels a German mood of 1918 has caused some surprise in the Allied world. Many ordinary Germans are telling Allied Correspondents that they "No longer hold Hitler in high regard." Some German Generals have issued statements implying that "The German Army could have won, for it not for the interference of the Nazi Party."
This German scorn for the Nazi Party whether real or pretended has astonished these Allied observers who expected the trouble for Postwar Germany to come from the Nazi Party and the Germans who refuse to forsake it. Trouble after the First World War did not come from particularly the Germans who refused to forsake the Kaiser and the form of government he represented. There were many Germans in 1918, were eager to announce their dislike of the Imperial German Government and the Kaiser who forgot his dignity with his wild flight into Neutral territory.
Less then a week after the victory, the evidence now indicates that if the Nazi Party continues as an important force German Life, it will do so under a different name and under the guidance of different Germans. The Swastika and the salute of the out stretched arm is vanishing and no one seems more eager to make them disappear thin the Germans. The German Generals and civilian officials plainly consider the Old Party customs and labels an embarrassing burden. Many of the ordinary German people would like to forget the Party that brought them so many triumphs but failed to bring the final victory.
All this has happened before a quarter of a century ago and of the citizen of the United Nations who are so eager today to prevent history from repeating itself any further in the years to come. There is reason indeed to greet the victory with prayer and with solum thought.


I fear now 57 years later that soon, my grandchildren will turn on the History Channel to see "Histories Mysteries, The Holocaust, did it Happen?" or have someone in school tell my grandchildren a totally revised version of WW2 and Nazi Germany.

I welcome anyones thoughts on this subject.

Regards
War is an extension of state policy by other means!!

Dan
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#2

Post by Dan » 22 Jun 2002, 01:24

If you define the Holocaust perhaps I'll respond.


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landserone
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#3

Post by landserone » 22 Jun 2002, 04:28

I feel I should explain my postion more thourghly. I am bothered by the fact there are those who would explain away a lot of the excess of Nazi Germany.

They either twist the facts to fit there view or they simply ignore the things that don't.

I feel as time goes on, these opinions will become more prominant as I am sure they have since the war.

That piece I attached I thought is interesting that even after week, the Germans were displaying an attituide of lets forget it and move on.

I have gotten that view from veterans and the like.
War is an extension of state policy by other means!!

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A Thought to Ponder

#4

Post by Pzkpfw6/E » 22 Jun 2002, 05:43

After 57 years I belive it is time to move on. It's fitting to have memorials and museums dedicated to the Holocaust, but there are many Germans who needlessly carry the guilt of their fathers on their shoulders.
As far as revisionists are concerned, ignore them.

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landserone
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#5

Post by landserone » 22 Jun 2002, 07:08

Well, moving on ok. I am not saying that they should run around with that around thier neck.

However, I think it should never be forgotten. Good lessons for every country otherwise we stand a chance in the future to repeat another World War.

As far as the revisionist go ignoring them can be dangrous. Soon history will change. Espacially, as time marches on and those that were there die off.

I am sure I sound a bit paranoid but I think its a legitamite concern.
War is an extension of state policy by other means!!

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57 years ago

#6

Post by Brad N » 22 Jun 2002, 08:00

I also think its time to let it go and allow Germany the freedom to be its own country, free of U.S. pressure. Although its probably too late.

There's no doubt that terrible things and crimes occurred during the war. But war is hello (not sure what you can and cannot say).

The allies were no angels either. We bombed non-military cities and killed civilians by the tens of thousands. We starved prisoners to death and have judged and executed soldiers for following orders and killing their enimies.

Concerning the Jews; It was totally wrong to kill them and could never be justified in a civilized society. The fact that the Germans and most of europe hated them and saw them as less then human was no excuse. But look at the 25 to 50 million indians we annnilated. We see all those famous indian fighters as hero's. I guess it just depends what side of the fence you judge from.

Brad

Dan
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#7

Post by Dan » 22 Jun 2002, 16:05

Hi Brad. I was in Bakersfield two days ago. Pretty dry this year. I agree basically with what you say, but as far as Indians are concerned, there weren't many more that 1 million when the White man landed, so you figures are high.

I was trying to get the original poster to define Holocaust, because much of what has been believed about European treatment of the Jews is pure bunk.

Regards
Dan

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57 channels and nothing on...

#8

Post by Scott Smith » 22 Jun 2002, 16:15

landserone wrote:That piece I attached I thought is interesting that even after week, the Germans were displaying an attituide of lets forget it and move on.
These are the Germans' views or Allied propagandists SAYING that these are the Germans' views? No need to brainwash a defeated enemy if our side is truly morally just.

No need to put a spin on history 57 years later either, for the same reason. "The truth will out," as the saying goes. And I am not saying that bad things didn't happen.

Just my opinion.
:)
Last edited by Scott Smith on 23 Jun 2002, 15:04, edited 1 time in total.

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#9

Post by Victor´s Justice? » 23 Jun 2002, 00:02

The fact is that hardly anyone will ever be able to discuss such matters in an exempt, pressure-free manner, given the power of mainstream media and the weight of established history...Palestinians will keep being considered as terrorists, while Apartheid-ish terrorist practices from Israel will not...

The A-bomb will always be the best choice for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and nothing will change such thought...ETA in Spain and IRA in Britain will never be fought as terrorists by the US, because they seem more civilized ("occidental") than Afghan dogs or Arabic bearded weirdos...

Russian war crimes will always be ignored, as any Victors´ war crimes...

Red Cross and International Amnesty will never have an impact in Mideast, as they lack military and economic power for that...

And, of course, North Korea, Iran, Iraq and Lybia will be "the axis of evil"...US are saints, and will be saints until the next imperial power takes place...history is written by Victors, so it´s useless to discuss such matters, even when lies are all spread out.

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#10

Post by landserone » 23 Jun 2002, 08:22

Dan,

Not sure what you want defined but here goes. When I say Holocaust, I refer the extermination program begun by the Nazi's. Now, Jew hating in Europe is nothing new. Throughout history Jews were the scape goat for any reason things were going bad or just a case of the "haves verses the have nots."

The differance ends though because the Nazi's took it to a new level of totally wiping out the race. Now, you can ignore all the facts. All the evidence and say otherwise but facts are facts.

My post was not nessesarly aimed at the Germans, it was really aimed at anyone who would not learn the lessons of that war and set the stage for another Nazi style regieme someplace else.

Welcome, any input thats what this Forum is all about.

Regards to all
War is an extension of state policy by other means!!

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#11

Post by Dan » 23 Jun 2002, 14:50

Throughout history Jews were the scape goat for any reason things were going bad or just a case of the "haves verses the have nots."
This is an example of successful propaganda. Jews would go for centuries at a time in various countries where they were incredibly prosperous. The various persecutions of Protestants, Baptists, Catholics, Orthodox, etc.. far surpassed what happened to Jews before WW2.
The differance ends though because the Nazi's took it to a new level of totally wiping out the race. Now, you can ignore all the facts. All the evidence and say otherwise but facts are facts.
If the Germans wanted to kill off all the Jews, all the Jews would be dead. The thousands of Jews who were liberated after the war would have been dead. But they were alive. These are the facts. Sen. Leiberman's wife comes from such a family. Your views are simplistic.
My post was not nessesarly aimed at the Germans, it was really aimed at anyone who would not learn the lessons of that war and set the stage for another Nazi style regieme someplace else.
Before you aim, be sure you have ammo.


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#12

Post by schroedinger » 23 Jun 2002, 16:09

Dan wrote: If the Germans wanted to kill off all the Jews, all the Jews would be dead.
If I ever saw one "simplistic view", this is one.

If the Germans wanted to win the war, they would have won the war.
Dan wrote: Your views are simplistic.
Oh well.

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KILLING MACHINES...

#13

Post by Scott Smith » 23 Jun 2002, 16:14

schroedinger wrote:
Dan wrote: If the Germans wanted to kill off all the Jews, all the Jews would be dead.
If I ever saw one "simplistic view", this is one.

If the Germans wanted to win the war, they would have won the war.
What is so hard about killing people? The hard part is rounding them up; after you've done that the killing is easy, and they don't shoot back. I can't think of any ordnance cheaper than small-arms ammunition. A few million bullets would have been pretty cheap.

Oh, I forgot, the big-bad, ruthless Nazis were scared of getting blood on their coats.
:wink:

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Re: KILLING MACHINES...

#14

Post by schroedinger » 23 Jun 2002, 17:37

Scott Smith wrote:
schroedinger wrote:
Dan wrote: If the Germans wanted to kill off all the Jews, all the Jews would be dead.
If I ever saw one "simplistic view", this is one.

If the Germans wanted to win the war, they would have won the war.
What is so hard about killing people? The hard part is rounding them up; after you've done that the killing is easy, and they don't shoot back.
Yes, and that is why the Nazis were able to kill so many.
Scott Smith wrote: I can't think of any ordnance cheaper than small-arms ammunition. A few million bullets would have been pretty cheap.
I'm sure they would have appreciated your advice.

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#15

Post by Dan » 23 Jun 2002, 17:46

What are you talking about? Do you deny that thousands of Jews were housed and fed in these concentration camps?

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