Russian crimes against Latvians

[Birgitte Heuschkel]

Yes, indeed.

[Benoit Douville]

I would like to learn more too. I am very interested by this subject. I am also tired of topics about Jews persecution. The Soviets did commit a lot of war crimes that we are only beginning to discover starting with Katyn about 10 years ago.

[Birgitte Heuschkel]

I wouldn't say I'm "tired" of hearing about Jewish victimisation, but as a historian I want to hear all of it, not just the Jewish part.

[Keith Loughmiller]

Anybody have any info on what happened to the Estonians?? Estonia borders my "fatherland" and I have basicly no info on crimes commited against them. I am sure they went thru the same "punishment" the Latvian did, as they also provided a division to the SS.

[Keith Loughmiller]

Here are some interesting links, I haven't had time to check tham all out yet:
http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/
http://home.att.net/~genocides/tour.htm

[Dan]

I've read that the Estonians were real butt-kickers. I've often thought that a buffer state composed of Finland, Estonia, and the other related peoples could have been powerful enough to have had an influence for peace in that part of the world.

[landserone]

Ok, well I have some more from this book I quote before. Seems in Sept of 41 the Reich Commsioner Lohse forbid any further killings of Jews. After recieving reports about Police Killings. He forbid and further wild killings of Jews in Libau until a written order or referance could be shown to prove or warrent such killings.

He met will considerable resistance from SS authorities. However, similar orders were put in place in Riga and later in Schaulen, Lithuania.

However, this was not the norm for the Baltics.

[landserone]

As far a Soviet Crimes against the Baltic states, I think every major city with a prison had the NKVD excute all prisoners before evacuating those cities.

I know vertally nothing about the soviet reoccupation of the baltic states so that is all I know.

[Keith Loughmiller]

Dan,
Yes the EESTI LEGION (Estonian SS) were "bad lads" and were some of the best the Waffen SS had to offer, unfortunatly they couldn't hold out after the war like the Latvians did.
landserone,
You are correct. When the russians fled the advancing Germans(Totenkopf, Wiking, and elements of Das Reich), they killed just about everyone they had in custody, or could get there hands on(see the Latvian ocupation museum site), and burned most of Vec Riga(Old town Riga) including St.Peters church(which had stood since the 1400's untill the russians). I will call my friend in Latvia, he is head of the Oppressed Latvian peoples and actually survived Being sent to siberia, and the central prison(NKVD) in Riga. Here is his picture from the prison(if you can see it, note his "number" on chest).

[houndie]

Dan and Keith Loughmiller,

Thanks for being the only people in the forum to know the Eesti Leegion. The reason for this is the fact that although the estonians didn't survive as long as the latvians did (maybe also because they weren't as pressed as the estonians maybe?), they won a marvellous battle (Sinimäed - Blue mountains, you won't find anything from the Internet about it, much to my distress), where estonians were in a situation, where the enemy had 3 times more men and 6 times more hardware (I don't remember the exact numbers) ... The estonians won so that the russians lost 100 000-150 000 men. Were the latvians in any battle of such size? The latvians had TWO divisions in the Waffen-SS (not to be mixed up with Allgemeine-SS).

My brother once saw a movie with some boxers, where one of the coaches motivated one of the boxers with the words:
"You will not only be a lean-mean fighting machine (the usual BS, but now comes the good part), you will be strong enough to be in the Waffen-SS.
If the estonians were some of the best this motivating group had to offer, I am truly honoured of my roots.

My classmate once told me that in Finland, when the others saw the estonians backing up, they knew it was time to run-they were the last to run.

And one other thing, which made the Estonian SS good- no reported atrocities to blame them on. Of course they didn't have much chances to do some, they only battled on Estonian grounds.

[Dan]

I'm sure we all would all like to hear more of this battle.

Best
Dan

[Reigo]

The Sinimäed-battle is better known as the battle of the Tannenberg-line at the end of July and in the beginning of August 1944. Houndie note that the Estonians composed maybe 1/3 of the overall German forces there (3rd SS PzKorps). I suggest you take a look at Wilhelm Tieke's "Truuduse tragöödia," which is probably the best account of this battle, published in Estonian.

As about Estonia's losses due the Soviet occupation, you can read from here (it also contains some information about the battle of Tannenberg-line).
http://www.okupatsioon.ee/english/overviews/walter.html

More links mentioning the battle of Tannenberg-line:
http://www.feldgrau.com/6ssb.html
http://www.geocities.com/frontkjemper/N ... istory.htm

[Keith Loughmiller]

catching up here. Great info!! Thanks Houndie. What other info do you have concerning Eesti Leegion??
I would say one of the Latvians biggest battles would be on 14.10.44 to 08.05.45 the last line of defense(which I beleive the Russian finally gave up and went on towards Germany) also know as the Kurland pocket. I have a friend who was in the 19th and have considerable info and maps he gave me. The 19th was faced with elements of the following Russian divisions: 26th Army, 5th Tank, 6th Army, 4th Army, 10th Tank, 3rd Army, 42nd Army, 22nd Army. The front was along the towns of: Saldus, Ramte, Biksti, Dzuksti, and Tukums. I am sure there were elements of the 15th Waffen SS also involved. After the Russians decided to forget this, and go around and proceed to Germany, the Latvians kept fighting untill 1957 in the "Kurland pocket". I don't have any figures on Russian casulties, but it must have been pretty high for them to decide it was not worth the loss, and move on.

[Roberto]

After the Russians decided to forget this, and go around and proceed to Germany, the Latvians kept fighting untill 1957 in the "Kurland pocket". I don't have any figures on Russian casulties, but it must have been pretty high for them to decide it was not worth the loss, and move on.

Well, there was actually no strategical need for the Soviet army to subdue the Kurland pocket. It could be left behind, like so many island strongpoints in the Pacific bypassed by American troops, until the day of capitulation, when the German troops bottled up there surrendered:

In the last week of the war the German armies on the eastern front all had one objective: to escape capture by the Russians. North and west of Berlin the Third Panzer, Twenty-first, and Twelfth armies succeeded in making agreements with United States Army commands which allowed them to pass through American lines. Army Group Center's Fourth Panzer, Seventeenth, and First Panzer armies were farther east on the upper Elbe River and in Czechoslovakia. After the unconditional surrender in Reims on May 7 (a second surrender ceremony was held in Berlin on May 9), they attempted a mass escape to the west but were stopped forward of the American-Soviet demarcation line, and nearly all of them, or about 1,000,000 men, passed into Soviet captivity. Some troops of Army Groups South, E, and Courland escaped in the last days, but most fell prisoner to the Russians. All told, the Russians took about 2,000,000 prisoners in the days immediately preceding and following the surrender.

Source of quote:

German Invasion of the U.S.S.R.

by Earl F. Ziemke

http://gi.grolier.com/wwii/wwii_6.html

I reckon that the Latvian forces who kept fighting inside the pocket were not regular troops, but guerrillas who managed to hide in the forests for years after the end of World War II. I once read something in National Geographic about the last of the "forest brothers" in one of the Baltic countries (I think it was Latvia, but I'm not sure) being hunted down by KGB agents sometime in the 1970s. I'll see if I can find the article.

[Annelie]

Roberto:

I reckon that the Latvian forces who kept fighting inside the pocket were not regular troops, but guerrillas who managed to hide in the forests for years after the end of World War II. I once read something in National Geographic about the last of the "forest brothers" in one of the Baltic countries (I think it was Latvia, but I'm not sure) being hunted down by KGB agents sometime in the 1970s. I'll see if I can find the article.

........


I would be interested in the article also. They obviously "forest brothers" must have believed strongly that they were doing the right thing. I find that so unusual that they continued long after when most left for better future.
Not many people like that today.

I have often wondered since viewing an program about an icelander researching his roots in Iceland and returning to his homeland there was an historian in his village that somehow he felt those that stayed behind when things were tough and helped build up the country were to him held in
"highest esteem". Not putting down those for various reasons immigrated but pointing out strength of character that these icelanders who helped rebuild the country.


Annelie